Will SD ever look like SD?

[Andrewwski]

SD looks fine on a sd tv. But on an HDTV (High Def T V) SD sucks. Who is going to watch sd on an hdtv. Why buy an HDTV right now, not all channels are hd.

Disagree wholeheartedly. Decent equipment and a decent TV should give a good image on an SD channel, and a better image on an HD channel.

Now whether or not it's Dish's compression that comes into play, I don't know, but I assume it has some effect.

On my Panasonic Pro model Plasma, SD looks fine. Just as good as it looks on an SDTV.

I don't know where this misconception comes from that SD should look bad on an HDTV. SD should look the same it always did. HD should look better.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

SD could look nearly as good as a DVD if E* (or D*) was so inclined to provide it at that quality.

I've been with E* since 1997. From '97 into mid '99 (or so) SD quality was quite good. It started downhill sometime in late '99 and got pretty bad around 2001-2002. E* tweaked their settings and changed their encoders over the years and got it back to maybe around 80% as good as it was in the late 90s and it has pretty much stayed at this level for a few years.

There was a brief period, I forget if it was in 2003 or 2004, when E* was shuffling some channels and the Encore tier of channels was running at only 2 or 3 SD channels per transponder for a few weeks. The quality was really good.

As it is, it looks good on small SDTVs, fairly good on mid-sized SDTVs, and to my eyes is pretty average on larger (32"-36") SDTVs. I can see compression-related artifacts on all E* SD channels on my 32" calibrated Toshiba SDTV.

Now, you take a SD channel where the compression is evident on a 32" SD set and put it on a 50" HD set and it is going to be extremely obvious - which it is.

So you are right, the SD channels are quite compromised from their original quality. They have been squeezed & tweaked to where they will be accepted as "good" by the huge majority of the American public when viewed on the typical 27"-32" TV. A discerning viewer with a high quality, large SDTV will find them wanting. Same thing for D*, if not even a little more so. And the same thing for most digital cable providers. They are all maximizing channels on limited bandwidth.

Funny thing is, some of the very channels that D* and E* are now offering as HD channels, but which are really showing upconverted SD ... those channels could look almost that good on their SD counterparts if they were only alloted more bandwidth. For example, a lot of people have been calling for Sci-Fi HD. Well, if E* gave Sci-Fi SD more bandwidth and ran it at full SD resolution, it would have been a really nice alternative while we waited for Sci-Fi HD.

But unfortunately the answer to your question as to when E* is going to give us high quality SD channels is most likely NEVER. If they were going to do so, they would have done it years ago. I think the fact that they have been offering them at lower quality for 8 years now is a statement of their position on this matter.

 

[memo90061]

i have noticed this too. directv's SD channels looked better on my HDTV than dish network's SD channels. no im not complaining! i watch the SD channels that arent in HD yet.

 

[TheKrell]

Thank you for the erudite discussion. I have but one nit to pick.

SD could look nearly as good as a DVD if E* (or D*) was so inclined to provide it at that quality.

Since DVDs and Dish SD programs are both MPEG-2, it seems to me that Dish could in principle make it's SD channels exactly the same as a DVD. One parameter of obvious interest is the current resolution of Dish SD channels: 544 X 480. Another is the scaler in use to display SD programs on an HD set; some scalers are definitely better than others.

I for one have been holding off buying an HDTV because (1) my best programming to date is only DVD and (2) I have no way to compare the scaler performance of a prospective HDTV. All the showrooms I've seen recently have some sort of semi-pro 6-cat6 twisted pair cable distribution system usually fed by an upscaling DVD player. The result looks bad enough to my eye, and gives no clue as to the set's performance on SD video.

 

[eddieras]

one question here from a new (2days) Dish customer - the OP specifically mentioned centre ice. i see the same thing-- on centre ice. the SD pictures are really bad. but the other SD channels in the regular line up don't look bad at all.
how does this happen specifically to the centre ice channels?? and i'm looking to be educated not to further incite something.

 

[mrsdrgn]

Then watch it on cable. I watch E* SD on a 13" Sharp analog tv in my office and the picture is crystal clear. I can't say the same about my 65" MITS though, it's just barely acceptable.

It's crystal clear on my 5" screen. Yeah right. I am surprise that you can see the picture on a 13".
E* quality is the worst. I just switched to D* and there is a big difference in SD picture.

 

[Hemi 6.1]

Unless I'm reading your post wrong, you're complaining about the SD quality while viewing with a HDTV, right?

If so...here's the problem; I'll try to use a good analogy. You're driving a Corvette (or Porsche...players choice) while using 85 octane. That 85 octane is fine if you have a Cavalier, but the moment you decided to get a performance machine that's when you notice how cruddy things are.

Where do you get 85 octane?

 

[ehren]

I'm tired of the HD people like you who whine like little girls. The vast majority of customers still have SD only, yet you think Dish should change everything just for you. Grow up, you aren't the center of the universe and no one sure as hell wants you to be.

yes they do, what's wrong with you son? Do you work for Dish? Would you find me hot if I dressed like a girl for you?

 

[Spatch]

yes they do, what's wrong with you son? Do you work for Dish? Would you find me hot if I dressed like a girl for you?

Huh!!! I guess E* has pushed you to come out of the closet?

 

[Slamminc11]

Huh!!! I guess E* has pushed you to come out of the closet?

Someone please push 'em back in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[eddieras]

enough of the flamming - can anyone provide any insight into the previous post - why is the SD centre ice channels on dish not as good as the SD CI on directv?? this is very troubling for a new subscriber!

 

[Slamminc11]

It looks great on my tv, but then again, I am not having to deal with HD either so...

 

[ehren]

Huh!!! I guess E* has pushed you to come out of the closet?

wow that was too easy to expose a homophobe.

 

[eddieras]

ok- i talked to a friend of mine who is an engineer for the cable industry and described the problem with the pix quality on some of the sd channels. now, some of you may know this already - i didn't so i'll go ahead and post.
obviously its a compression issue. he said that there are a few ways to select which channels/ programming to compress. usually, the talk, news shows are highly compressed because you won't notice with this type of programming. however, dish is compressing the channels they obviously feel would not elicit a large number of complaints from customers=- eg centre ice.

the other thing i learned is that this can be a 'dynamic' process- one in which each channel and or program is automatically compressed based upon its content. again, with the talk, news etc being compressed the most and sports the least.

so we pay extra for CI and get the shaft - they should be taking care of those who pay a premium --

 

[ehren]

SD sports channels should have the higher PQ like the PPV movie channels.

 

[eddieras]

that is exactly what he said - we need to call/ email complain

 

[eddieras]

i emailed dish at dishquality@echostar.com

and here's the response i got

Thank you for expressing your concerns and interest in DISH Network. Customer input is an important tool in our efforts to continuously improve the quality of the DISH Network service.

We are currently looking into thesignal quality of NHL Center Ice in both SD and HD formats. We are reviewing these feeds with our Master Control and Engineering departments to see what can be done to improve signal quality. If and when it appears that improvements have been made, we would like to contact you for your opinion.

At DISH Network we appreciate the time customers take to email their audio/video quality concerns. Thank you for your patience and for being a valued customer.


Regards,
EchoStar Satellite LLC
Quality Assurance Department
dishquality@echostar.com

i think we need to stay on them - obviously we PAY extra for this service and should be taken care of

 

[kb7oeb]

I don't respond to morons but I have 1 211 reciever, so I have to frickin watch SD on my HD set no matter what for NHL Center Ice, I have a QAM tuner for cable and I get a select # of channels on QAM cable. I don't think it's too much for Dish to atleast try and have SD look decent. the problem is each TP has like 16 channels. I remember a long time ago when Digital Cable first launched, the ad said you can get 6 digital channels for every analog channel. NOT 16 Dish! Thanks for those that support me in my fustration. others can suck an egg.

Dish gets 6 HD channels in the equivalent analog space

Dish SD has sucked for a long time. For all the people who say it looks great on a small tv just think of a internet video stream. Just because you made the window smaller and it now looks clear it doesn't mean its good quality.

 

[Jim S.]

Dish SD has sucked for a long time. For all the people who say it looks great on a small tv just think of a internet video stream. Just because you made the window smaller and it now looks clear it doesn't mean its good quality.

Absolutely! I find it hard to believe that anyone in their right mind can defend the PQ on some of the SD channels. A few occasional compression artifacts would be acceptable -- MPEG is lossy after all -- but not every non-premium channel looking like free Internet streaming video. And there are only going to be more complaints as not only are displays getting larger but NTSC displays are going away.

 

[brandonsound]

Interesting that I hadn't even read this thread before... But I have noticed a significant difference in NHL CI SD quality this year. I had it last year and SD was fine most of the time, but this year it is awful! So I emailed as well (like I said I hadn't even seen this thread, so it is a relief I'm not the only one seeing this). Here was my correspondence...

Dear Mr. ,

Thank you for expressing your concerns and interest in DISH Network.
Customer input is an important tool in our efforts to continuously
improve the quality of the DISH Network service.

We have informed the appropriate engineering and operations teams here
at the Broadcast Center and we're all keeping a close eye on these
channels. (It is much easier to troubleshoot the issue(s) if we see it
first-hand.) If/when it appears to us the quality has improved, we
would like to check back with you for your opinion.

At DISH Network we appreciate the time customers take to email their
audio/video quality concerns. Thank you for your patience and for being
a valued customer.


Regards,
EchoStar Satellite LLC
Quality Assurance Department
dishquality@echostar.com

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 4:15 PM
To: Audio-Video-Quality
Subject: NHL SD Quality

I am a 2nd year NHL Center Ice Subscriber. I am currently watching games
on 545 and 546, and the picture quality is horrible. The picture is very
compressed and unclear. It is hard to watch the action. I have noticed
this on most SD games so far this year. Please address this issue.
Customers like myself pay a lot of money for these PPV packages. We
should not be ripped off with poor picture quality.

Thank you,