Zero Quality Signal--Have tried everything I can

[TryingMyBest]

Hi Freezy,

Hi Freezy,
Thank you for the advice, I will try it. Questions:
(1) What is the advantage of taking off the motor, instead of doing trial and error with the motor on?
(2) I am new to this--what is the difference between a circular and linear LNB? How do I know which one I have?
(3) Where can one find a magnetic angle finder?

Thank you for your help and time !

 

[B.J.]

Can somebody explain to me the significance of setting the pole angle to (30 minus declination)? What exactly is that supposed to aim me at---I thought different satellites have different elevations, and all need to be fine tuned?

..

If you're aiming a fixed dish with just elevation and rotating mount on pole, which will be an Azimuth/Elevation setup, then yes, each sat will have a different elevation. However with a polar mount, you're aligning the rotation axis of the motor ALMOST parallel to the earth's polar axis, and if the sats were infinitely far away, you could follow all the sats by aiming perpindicular to the rotation axis. However since the sats are "only" ~23,000 miles away, and located on the earth's equatorial plane, being north of the equator, you have to look down to aim at the sats. The angle you look down is the declination angle, and it will vary in the 4 to 6 degree range, depending upon where you are. As your motor rotates, the dish's aim will move from aiming high to aiming down toward the east or west horizon, and thus change the elevation without you having to make changes for each sat.
Now..... the 30 minus declination thing....
Your declination is around 5 degrees, and it's really NEGATIVE, since you have to aim down that amount. The elevation adjustment on the dish is only for POSITIVE elevations, and usually they only adjust between something like 15 or 20 to 70 or 75 or so, so there is no way to get a MINUS 5 degrees. That's where the bend in the motor shaft comes in. If your motor shaft has a 30 deg bend, then, to get minus 5, you use a +25 degree elevation, so that 25 minus the 30 deg bend equals your minus 5 deg declination. Very simple.

EDIT: One other thing. If you add your declination to the elevation of the motor axis, you'll get the elevation of your true south sat. Up above there was reference to your motor elevation being 57 degrees, which is 90 minus your latitude. Also, web pages indicate that the elevation of your true south sat will be like 51.6 deg. Well the 57 -5.4 = 51.6 , OR if you use the so called modified declination, you would use a 56.4 deg motor elevation and a modified declination of 4.8, so that 56.4-4.8=51.6 Ie that's how the angles are related. The modified declination comes in because each sat actually has a slightly different declination, so it's best to use the declination of an extreme easterly or westerly sat, which will be about 0.6 degrees less than that of your southern sat, then to compensate you need about 0.6 deg less of an elevation on your motor. With modified declination, you will track all sats across the arc. With the traditional declination, you will be off up to 0.6 degrees on some sats.

 

[LoTech]

Correct me if I'm wrong here guys. This is based on what I know about dishes and motors and may not be 100% accurate.

On an SG2100 dish motor you will have two different inclination adjustments: elevation, and declination (see the attached picture). The elevation angle is set between the pole and the motor. This measurement is used to set your motor on the correct path to follow the satellite arc, and is dependent on your latitude. The declination measurement (x - magnetic declination angle: where x is unique to the offset on the motor i.e. 40 - declination angle) is used to compensate for the declination of the satellite under the elevation measurement, and is set between the motor and dish.

For example: you are at 32 N latitude and 83 W longitude. According to the SG2100 manual your motor should be set at 58 degrees, and the declination is 5.241. So you would adjust your motor to 58 degrees if using the elevation markings or 37 degrees latitude if using the latitude markings (note these are not the same number scale.) Then I would adjust my dish elevation bracket (according to the manual for my SG2100) to 40 - 5.241 = 34.8. ( If you use a measure of 40 on the dish elevation bracket this would essentially keep the dish at the same angle as the motor elevation, so you subtract the declination angle from 40 in order to decline the dish back down to where it should be to line up with the true south satellite. This number may be different for different SG2100 models.) This would put the dish at an angle of 58 - 5.241 = 52.759 degrees.

According to DishPointer, the elevation of our dish should be 52.7 for AMC9 (83W) which would be our true south satellite. This matches what we got above from subtracting the declination angle from the motor elevation angle.

 

[freezy]

Was this a lot easier for me because I live at 45degrees North?

The advantage of putting it up without the motor is it is easier to find your elevation without it. By recording the angle the LNB arm you know where you need to be when the motor is added.

The elevation (not declination sorry) of the motor sets your arc. This is an empirical number. It will never change.

Put your motor and dish back on. Put the angle finder on. Set the dish's elevation to whatever gets you back to the same angle on the LNB arm was when you locked in 119w

the difference in elevation between your longitude of 117w and 119w is minuscule. Almost a non-factor
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Almost every street in San Diego is North South oriented. Finding True South shouldn't be too hard. At the top of your arc (zero degrees) everything will be pointing to 180degrees or 167.8 magnetic
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A circular LNB is one from a 18"Directv dish. The yoke on a FTA dish is the same as the skinny round part.

Advantage to circular is the TPs are very strong and setting skew is taken out of the equation

 

[B.J.]

Correct me if I'm wrong here guys. This is based on what I know about dishes and motors and may not be 100% accurate.

On an SG2100 dish motor you will have two different inclination adjustments: elevation, and declination (see the attached picture). The elevation angle is set between the pole and the motor. This measurement is used to set your motor on the correct path to follow the satellite arc, and is dependent on your latitude. The declination measurement (x - magnetic declination angle: where x is unique to the offset on the motor i.e. 40 - declination angle) is used to compensate for the declination of the satellite under the elevation measurement, and is set between the motor and dish.

For example: you are at 32 N latitude and 83 W longitude. According to the SG2100 manual your motor should be set at 58 degrees, and the declination is 5.241. So you would adjust your motor to 58 degrees if using the elevation markings or 37 degrees latitude if using the latitude markings (note these are not the same number scale.) Then I would adjust my dish elevation bracket (according to the manual for my SG2100) to 40 - 5.241 = 34.8. ( If you use a measure of 40 on the dish elevation bracket this would essentially keep the dish at the same angle as the motor elevation, so you subtract the declination angle from 40 in order to decline the dish back down to where it should be to line up with the true south satellite. This number may be different for different SG2100 models.) This would put the dish at an angle of 58 - 5.241 = 52.759 degrees.

According to DishPointer, the elevation of our dish should be 52.7 for AMC9 (83W) which would be our true south satellite. This matches what we got above from subtracting the declination angle from the motor elevation angle.

What you describe is pretty much what I was trying to say in the post before yours, assuming (1) that your motor has a 40 degree bend in the motor shaft, and (2) that you are using traditional declination rather than modified declination. I think the modified declination is better, and following the traditional charts in the manual will result in some small errors.

HOWEVER... one error in what you said above. The declination used in these calculations is the astronomical type of declination, ie polar coordinates of rotation angle and a declination angle. You called this the "magnetic declination" which is a completely different thing. Magnetic declination is a correction angle used to convert a compass heading to true azimuth.

 

[LoTech]

HOWEVER... one error in what you said above. The declination used in these calculations is the astronomical type of declination, ie polar coordinates of rotation angle and a declination angle. You called this the "magnetic declination" which is a completely different thing. Magnetic declination is a correction angle used to convert a compass heading to true azimuth.

Yep. I realized that after I went back and re-read it. I guess I had it on my mind from an earlier post. I was going to go back and change it, but I've already been called out on it.

 

[B.J.]

Yep. I realized that after I went back and re-read it. I guess I had it on my mind from an earlier post. I was going to go back and change it, but I've already been called out on it.

It's really too bad that for this process of aligning sat dishes that you need to use two different terms both called declination. I've always referred to the magnetic one as magnetic deviation or offset or something like that, but declination is really the official term. Makes thing confusing here though unless we're careful.

 

[AcWxRadar]

Hello and thank you again to everybody that took the time and effort to offer their knowledge and help. I have read and reread all the posts and saved them, as they have helped me a lot. What I find very frustrating, and borderline infuriating, is not the process of the setup or education, but the seeming lack of a coherent place where one can learn these things. For example, none of the manuals I received were of any use. The Sonicview receiver manual did not mention any of the advice about needing an active transponder, or the list being obsolete, etc. What I had thought, naively, is that if I point at a satellite, I should get (or not get) a signal--I was totally unfamiliar with the concept of transponders. Also, as mentioned, I looked at the transponder list on my Sonicview, and it does not match the list on Lyngsat.
I appreciate the advice on which satellites to aim for, and will try for 97 West, as mentioned. The box on my LNB simply says JSC322, so I do not have a clue if it standard or universal? No documentation at all inside the LNB box.

Can somebody explain to me the significance of setting the pole angle to (30 minus declination)? What exactly is that supposed to aim me at---I thought different satellites have different elevations, and all need to be fine tuned?

Lastly, are there any good sources of education for somebody like myself going through this setup, and not knowing all the things mentioned? I have spent countless hours on Youtube and the internet, and thought I understood what I was doing, but clearly I did not.

Thank you all again for your time, knowledge, and patience with me--all greatly appreciated !!

TryingMyBest,

I am not going to provide any technical assistance here, I just want to make a quick comment on your querie: "are there any good sources of education".

The answer to that is SatelliteGuys! Absolutely! Understand that we all have been through many sorts of wild goose chases with a meriad of different equipment, so we understand your frustration with the lack of conveniently available and accurate (or specific) information.

Most of us have found our way through the underbrush on our own. By random chance we found specific sites and information along the way that allowed our "lightbulbs" to turn on. We have amassed a great deal of "uncommon" knowledge here. Therefore, I recommend that you listen to everyone here on this site since we know a lot of tips and tricks and calculations that will help you, but we also know a lot of really great resources and sites beyond what we present right here. Sometimes we will refer you to some web site that we use. No sense in duplicating another sites work if they allow you to use it freely.

Becoming extremely proficient at this hobby takes time, so you must have patience. There is just too much information to cover. Therefore, you must concede to the fact that "it ain't all gonna click overnight".

Not to toot my own horn, but please visit the FAQ section for FTA and read my post regarding how to set up a motorized dish (by AcWxRADAR). I believe that I have some cool stuff in there. It is a long read, but you might find some things that surprise you and will click for you.

RADAR

 

[Ironsides]

I agree with Radar

I agree totally with Radar, read what they are telling you even if you think you don't understand. Just ask, if you don't because someone will come along and tell you. You have to take your time when setting up your dish, that is a must! Don't ever start working on it with the idea it's only going to take 5 minutes and you are done..

Several years ago when I got hold of my first KU satellite dish I came home and started doing searches. This was before the days of Google got so big, keep that in mind. I just happened on a post From Iceburg that was really cool and made me understand somethings I hadn't. In that post it had a link to this site and I came here and I have been coming here off and on all this time. I normally just read and don't make a lot of posts. Most anything I can ask has already been asked and already been replied too. I do like to get and updated idea of things in regards to Receivers or lnbfs before I break down and purchase so I might ask.

Just read what these guys are telling you take your time and if you don't understand something ask them. Most of it is way over my head but someone will come along that makes you click and you get it!. Mcguyver often will reply to something I have asked and I totally understand while someone else might say the same thing and it just flies right past me....

Anyway good luck and don't give in because the end results are you will make friends and have a great deal of fun watching FTA and learning something really cool!

If you notice my signature includes the mention of a PC Dish with a mod for an Invacom LNBF, that dish is the Iceburg dish..LOL! His replies to my questions and I think Anole helped on that project made me understand how to make changes to fit tha lnb. I felt like a puppy chasing it's tail but they made me understand what I had to do to make it work...

 

[LoTech]

TryingMyBest,

Here's a method for you to try if you're fed up with trying to get Satmex 5. Some here may disagree with this approach, but I know of a few from another site that have tried it successfully with motorized systems. This works best if you take the receiver and a small TV to the dish and hook it up.

1. You are at 33 N Latitude , 117 West Longitude so your true south sat is 117 W. It should be that one that is closest to your longitude.

2. According to the manual, your motor elevation scale should be set at 57 degrees (or at 33 if you are using the Latitude scale). Your dish elevation scale (declination) should be set at 40 - 5.377 = 34.6. Your LNB skew should be set to zero.

3. The following works best if you are using your true south satellite, but if you have no luck getting transponders on Satmex 5, use your receiver setup to set AMC 21 (125 W) to USALS motorized, and drive your dish to that location.

4. Make sure that you have transponder 12104V/4340 in the transponder list for 125 W. If not, add it.

5. Check to see if you are receiving signal quality on that transponder. If you are, then blind scan this sat and go to step 8. If not, go to step 6.

6. Loosen the motor mount slightly, and slowly move the dish/motor setup a little to the right or left. If you get signal, try to peak it as much as possible before tightening the motor mount bolts. and then blind scan the sat. If not, go to step 7

7. Increase or decrease the motor elevation slightly, and then retry step 6. You may need to re-try this step a few times.

8. Assuming that your pole is plumb, and everything else is set right, this should put you close to being on the arc. You can then use USALS or DiSEqC to drive your dish to other sats. I would check a known transponder on each location to see if you have signal quality. If not, drive your dish with the receiver a little East/West until you pick up signal.

Using this method, you may need to adjust the East/West position of several of your sats in order to get signal quality.

 

[woodheat/nooil]

TryingMyBest any luck finding something? Just to mention, once I had trouble with RCA brand RG-6 cable. The connector would short out at the receiver the wire would bend down to the floor and short out. Cut the connectors off and put new ones on no more shorts.

 

[freezy]

Dial Angle finder...fix the h t t p part

h__p://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=34214&xcamp=google&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=cpc&zmam=13262200&zmas=12&zmac=112&zmap=34214

really cheap. any home center will have them

 

[keeponrockin]

ok guys I'm not new to this fta thing but I am setting up a primestar dish with perhaps a motor have not gotten one yet any suggestions that works with a primestar ? got it to lock on g19 international and religious channels galore and my friend wants satmex6/5 spanish stuff I keep telling him most of it is on c-band but he is picky about the bigger dish any ku sat worth looking @ for spanish chs ? after I cut off the bolt where the dish was over tighten it worked flawlessly now will that be a problem for a motor ?

 

[TryingMyBest]

A warm thank you..and question

Firstly, a heartfelt warm thank you to everybody that took the time and effort to reply. Please be assured I am downloading all the information, and reading it carefully. I must confess to feeling a bit overwhelmed, but am determined to stick with it.

Given the above, the suggestion was made to mount the satellite without the motor, and measure the angle using an inclinometer, then duplicate. Will this be the easiest way to do this? From what I have read about USALS, once I have one satellite input, the software will find the others, so all I need to do is find that elusive first satellite--am I correct in that assumption, or have I misunderstood?

Again, many many thanks for all the great information--I did track down and download all the files mentioned in the FAQ's of FTA, on how to install a motorized dish, which was wonderful information.

 

[TryingMyBest]

SatMex 5

I just read the post that Satmex 5, which was my True South satellite and the one I was pointing at, is C band ! Ugggh. Thank you for mentioning that--maybe that is a big part of the problem. Now I feel rather stupid for not reading the fine print on lygsat.

Thank you for pointing that out !!

 

[TryingMyBest]

Thank you Freezy, AcWxRadar, and everybody !

for telling me about the angle finder, and where to get it, and the posts on setting up the motorized dish. Apologies to anybody I left out. All is helpful and sincerely appreciated

 

[putney]

I just read the post that Satmex 5, which was my True South satellite and the one I was pointing at, is C band ! Ugggh. Thank you for mentioning that--maybe that is a big part of the problem. Now I feel rather stupid for not reading the fine print on lygsat.

Thank you for pointing that out !!

http://www.satelliteguys.us/thelist/index.php?page=116+SatMex+5

this may help

 

[TryingMyBest]

OK here is where I start to bang my head

I go up to the roof, line up the satellite as best I can on the compass. Following prior advice, I am aiming for Galaxy 19, at 97 degrees West. Being in San Diego, with magnetic declination factored in, I am supposed to point at 133 magnetic, elevation 46. OK, then I took a satellite meter, and ballparked the elevation of the dish, and played with it until I maxed out the signal strength. Needless to say, I descend from the roof, to find zero quality. I of course looked at the nearby satellites in case I was off, and still zero all around.

Where am I going wrong? How can the signal meter indicate a signal and yet I still get zero quality on all satellites? Shouldn't some satellite have some quality, given what the signal meter is telling me?

Another more rudimentary question is how exactly do I tell which direction such a large dish is pointed at? I tried to mark off a center point on the back, but it was just a good guess. How do you know with precision which way you are aiming a 3 foot dish?

Thank you

 

[avg1joe]

Why is your dish on your roof?

 

[TryingMyBest]

Pictures of setup as requested previously

Please excuse if they come out too large