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navagator

Last reply Mar 28, 2008 · posted in Free To Air (FTA) Discussion

Dish size for DVB-S2?

Hello,

Just curious, will the new RTN DVB-S2 signals require a larger dish? I'm mainly concerned with G10 as I have a fairly large dish for C band reception.

I'm currently using a Primestar dish for G10, great little dish.

Will I need to upgrade to a larger KU dish or maybe go with a Corotor on the big dish?

Thanks

Doug

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Mr Tony

Mar 26, 2008

From what I've heard and read we shouldn't have issues with the dish size when some channels on KU goes DVB-S2. Our existing dishes will be fine

Stefan

Mar 26, 2008

But keep in mind it's not just about FEC rate. Modulation is a factor as well and for a given FEC rate 8psk is harder to lock than Qpsk. It's true that 8psk dvb-s2 is easier to lock than 8psk dvb-dsng but it's still requires a higher signal to noise ratio than qpsk dvb-s. Based on the information I've looked at an dvb-s2 8psk signal with an FEC rate of 3/4 requires just a tad bit higher signal to noise ratio that a qpsk dvb-s signal with an FEC rate of 7/8. So, if you have trouble with the dvb-s qpsk c-band mux on G3c that has an FEC rate of 7/8 your gonna have a bit more trouble with the 8psk dvb-s2 mux that's 3/4 on G26. Don't believe me? Take a look at the chart on page 11 of this document.

http://orderedwords.net/badgers/tandberg/Tandberg DVBS-2 guide.pdf

You'll see that there's a recommended minimum of 7.91 db for 3/4 8psk dvb-s2 versus 7.24 db for 7/8 qpsk dvb-s. So, the answer to this thread is it could indeed require a bigger dish depending on what FEC rate they're gonna use.

chapelrun

Mar 27, 2008

Interesting Article

I read most of this article. (not understanding alot of it).

Does anyone know what most DVB-S2 TV broadcasters plan to use or are using in terms of mode? (QPSK or 8PSK)

Page 17 talked about Backward Compatible Broadcast Mode which I thought was interesting. I wonder if Equity and others are using or plan to use this as folks upgrade their receivers.

Much information in the article went over my head but I still thought it was a good read if you are interested in how DVB-S2 works.

tifozi

Mar 27, 2008

Stefan said:
But keep in mind it's not just about FEC rate. Modulation is a factor as well and for a given FEC rate 8psk is harder to lock than Qpsk. It's true that 8psk dvb-s2 is easier to lock than 8psk dvb-dsng but it's still requires a higher signal to noise ratio than qpsk dvb-s. Based on the information I've looked at an dvb-s2 8psk signal with an FEC rate of 3/4 requires just a tad bit higher signal to noise ratio that a qpsk dvb-s signal with an FEC rate of 7/8. So, if you have trouble with the dvb-s qpsk c-band mux on G3c that has an FEC rate of 7/8 your gonna have a bit more trouble with the 8psk dvb-s2 mux that's 3/4 on G26. Don't believe me? Take a look at the chart on page 11 of this document.

http://orderedwords.net/badgers/tandberg/Tandberg%20DVBS-2%20guide.pdf

You'll see that there's a recommended minimum of 7.91 db for 3/4 8psk dvb-s2 versus 7.24 db for 7/8 qpsk dvb-s. So, the answer to this thread is it could indeed require a bigger dish depending on what FEC rate they're gonna use.

Interesting, thanks for the info. Probably why i can never lock Tp 15 on AMC1 (12000H/28755 FEC 2/3 -> DVB-S 8PSK) on my Merc II.

tifozi

Mar 27, 2008

The wait for the mythical do-it-all receiver continues.

Stefan

Mar 27, 2008

tifozi said:
Interesting, thanks for the info. Probably why i can never lock Tp 15 on AMC1 (12000H/28755 FEC 2/3 -> DVB-S 8PSK) on my Merc II.

If that's the NBC feeds your referring to, those are dvb-dsng 8psk (AKA trellis). Anyway, the only way to receive those is with a commercial receiver or demodulator. Also only some commercial receivers support dvb-dsng 8psk and often times it's an optional feature meaning that the original purchaser had to pay extra for it as an added feature. Bottom line is receivers that support this cost thousands of dollars. Every once in while you may find one listed on ebay and maybe get lucky for $500 - $1000 if your willing to take a chance. Your taking a chance because the receiver you buy may or may not have that optional feature enabled and often times the seller may not even know for sure.

Anyway, you are correct in that dvb-dsng 8psk is harder to lock than even dvb-s2 8psk. The type of FEC encoding used with DVB-s2 helps out here. So, you probably would need a even larger dish for that signal. I think a really good 1.2M might work in good weather conditions, but larger would be better. But unless you have a receiver capable of that type of signal there's no way you'll lock it anyway.

Stefan

Mar 27, 2008

chapelrun said:
I read most of this article. (not understanding alot of it).

Does anyone know what most DVB-S2 TV broadcasters plan to use or are using in terms of mode? (QPSK or 8PSK)

Page 17 talked about Backward Compatible Broadcast Mode which I thought was interesting. I wonder if Equity and others are using or plan to use this as folks upgrade their receivers.

Much information in the article went over my head but I still thought it was a good read if you are interested in how DVB-S2 works.

I think the trend is toward 8psk because generally the primary reason for going this route is to pack more into less bandwidth so as to reduce distribution cost. Satellite transponders cost big bucks. It's cheaper to have all your affiliates buy bigger dishes and new receivers than to pay the cost of more bandwidth.

One thing you have to remember is than in North America most all of the FTA signals we receive are not intended for us. It may be that in some case, the provider might not care too much that we're watching, but we're still not the reason the signals up there. Therefore making it easier for us is not high on their priority list. In fact many of them might prefer we weren't watching at all. Either way their main focus is going to be serving their needs and not ours. That's why you generally never contact a FTA programming provider about their signal. It will generally do no good as they aren't providing the signal for us and often times it may even do harm as they may not be pleased we're watching or they may not want to be bugged by us.

ftarock

Mar 28, 2008

That's not correct with O/V dvb-s2 in Ku I have seen so far. Not gonna go into more detail on what kind of feeds, it's a sport basketball in dvb-s2 8psk, 1m well tune has problem with it, 1.2m well tune get clean lock with errors once in a while.
Another occasion, News feed in dvb-s2, same thing, 1m lock with errors. 1.2m with marginal.
It depends on the FEC, and for the O/V, the uplink tends to ulitlize the most bandwidth as possible for the programs, leaving not much room for FEC.
That makes sense because the intended client have dishes that's larger than us here.
So far I would say 1m dish have problem with O/V DVB-S2 feeds 99% of time.
FTARock

Iceberg said:
From what I've heard and read we shouldn't have issues with the dish size when some channels on KU goes DVB-S2. Our existing dishes will be fine

Mr Tony

Mar 28, 2008

rock
I'm going by with what someone at a broadcasting company that uses DVB-S2 right now and will be changing their other channels soon to DVB-S2 told me.

We'll see what happens

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TWiT Tech Podcast Network

27 minutes ago · posted in TWiT Tech Podcast Network

Apple Intelligence: Siri AI Revolutionizes Your Devices! #shorts

Time for another AWESOME video from the TWIT Network!

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8ErY6s7b8WI

Direct YouTube Link - Apple Intelligence: Siri AI Revolutionizes Your Devices! #shorts
TWIT's Website
TWIT Live Feed

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TWiT Tech Podcast Network

57 minutes ago · posted in TWiT Tech Podcast Network

Tech News Weekly 441

Time for another AWESOME video from the TWIT Network!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL5XFOpX4_A

Direct YouTube Link - Tech News Weekly 441
TWIT's Website
TWIT Live Feed

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TWiT Tech Podcast Network

57 minutes ago · posted in TWiT Tech Podcast Network

Home Theater Audio: JBL SCL-6 Speaker Custom Build! #shorts

Time for another AWESOME video from the TWIT Network!

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/CRhynF2RE20

Direct YouTube Link - Home Theater Audio: JBL SCL-6 Speaker Custom Build! #shorts
TWIT's Website
TWIT Live Feed

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teachtom

59 minutes ago · posted in DISH Network Support Forum

Problem when I switch from Bonus View channels back to regular Dish channels

Hello everyone, new guy here. I'm trying to solve problem I'm having with Dish bonus view channels. When I'm watching the bonus view channels then I switch back to regular dish channels, after few minutes the screen flips to black and after 30 seconds flips back to regular channels and continues to flip back and forth until I turn off TV. After I wait 30 minutes and turn back on , I can use regular channels again. So, its after I switch from bonus view channels to regular dish channels the problem starts. Been trying to fix this for a month, but no luck
Here what I've done.
i contacted Dish support and they sent me a new Joey3, but no help. Switched to a different HDMI input on TV, no help. Used different HDMI cable , no help. Used different electrical wall plug, no help.
Finally got a Dish tech to check it. He ran all systems check and was OK. Finally he brought in a small TV and plugged in the HDMI out from the Joey to the small TV. He could not get the problem to occur on his small TV, so the new Joey was working OK. So, then the problem must be myTV. He made some phone calls and came back with the answer that there must be a problem with the analog to digital switch in my TV. Has anyone ever heard of a problem like this, or is it time to be looking for a new TV? My tv LG OLED65C8PUA. TV has been trouble free til now. Thanks

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dfergie

Staff member HERE TO HELP YOU!

Last reply Today at 2:19 PM · posted in What's Cooking?

What's For Lunch?

We have a Breakfast and Dinner thread so...

Continuing from the Breakfast thread, found Cornbread mix so ...
Yellow Cornbread Mix
2 Hatch Green Chiles -diced
1 Egg
2/3 cup of milk
add to greased pan
Bake for 400f 20-25 minutes(From instructions)
now to put together and try... this to go with pinto beans...

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TRG

Monday at 3:34 PM

Pork shoulder, refried beans, cheddar and chopped green chile burrito with a pint of pale ale.

Its nice being able to have a pint with lunch during the week or whenever. I've been enjoying the retired life.

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dfergie

Monday at 4:27 PM

TRG said:
Pork shoulder, refried beans, cheddar and chopped green chile burrito with a pint of pale ale.

Its nice being able to have a pint with lunch during the week or whenever. I've been enjoying the retired life.

View attachment 191651

Congrats! I love retirement, no wake ups, no e-mails...
Leftovers for lunch, bacon wrapped salmon fillet from Saturday and a KFC thigh from Friday, Tea.

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TRG

Monday at 4:50 PM

dfergie said:
Congrats! I love retirement, no wake ups, no e-mails...
Leftovers for lunch, bacon wrapped salmon fillet from Saturday and a KFC thigh from Friday, Tea.

I've been retired since October. It was very strange at first. But I'm loving it now.

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TRG

Yesterday at 4:11 PM

Creamy flat chicken enchiladas with green chile, beans and rice.

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dfergie

Today at 2:05 PM

Layered Spicy Dorito / chili cheese Frito pie casserole…real sugar Pepsi

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TRG

Today at 2:19 PM

I had a very unusual but delicious 1/4lb hotdog with cream cheese, raspberry preserves and chopped Hatch green chile. It is an unlikely combination but it works.

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N5XZS

Last reply Today at 2:08 PM · posted in Over the Air Television By RabbitEars.Info

New low power station with CP has been granted. "Albuquerque "

New low power station has been granted by the FCC and the new call leter is K33OB-D on RF ch. 33.

Will run at 15 KW ERP, this one runs from the Westside same location as KWPL-LD a HC2 owned station.

It's going to be aimed at eastern part of Albuquerque, so it's tightly focused beam pattern.

This new station is owned by Digital Network and what kind of programmings is unkown at this time.

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N5XZS

Yesterday at 4:51 PM

Yeah, there are some diginets like Heartland, Retro, The Family Channel diginetworks that we already have here in this market and we don't need duplicates, but bring the new diginets on like the Rev'n, Karate Acton movies, different kind of music videos on the new station. :hatsoff2

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comfortably_numb

Yesterday at 4:54 PM

N5XZS said:
Yeah, there are some diginets like Heartland, Retro, The Family Channel diginetworks that we already have here in this market and we don't need duplicates, but bring the new diginets like Revn, Karate Acton movies, different kind of music videos on the new station.

I watch MovieSphere Gold channel a lot. Many recent movies on that digitnet

N5XZS

Yesterday at 4:59 PM

Yes that's a good channel MovieSphere, only thing is the missing CC on it.

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comfortably_numb

Today at 1:35 AM

According to the FCC listing, the tower is near I-40 and Juan Tabo:

FCCInfo Results

FCC Info is a Radio and Television Station Search Engine provided by Cavell, Mertz & Associates, Inc.

www.fccinfo.com

primestar31

Today at 2:08 PM

comfortably_numb said:
According to the FCC listing, the tower is near I-40 and Juan Tabo:

FCCInfo Results

FCC Info is a Radio and Television Station Search Engine provided by Cavell, Mertz & Associates, Inc.

www.fccinfo.com

Many of these in my DMA are on cell towers, so don't always reach very far because the towers aren't very high.

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Linus Tech Tips

Today at 2:02 PM · posted in Linus Tech Tips

I Found Free Money in the Tech House

Time for another AWESOME video from Linus Tech Tips!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FoAOhbeo5Y

Direct YouTube Link - I Found Free Money in the Tech House
Linus on Facebook
The LTT Store

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TWiT Tech Podcast Network

Today at 1:32 PM · posted in TWiT Tech Podcast Network

Hollywood Faces the AI Tipping Point with Robert Tercek

Time for another AWESOME video from the TWIT Network!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOgBoy9ScCY

Direct YouTube Link - Hollywood Faces the AI Tipping Point with Robert Tercek
TWIT's Website
TWIT Live Feed

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zippyfrog

Pub Member / Supporter Lifetime Supporter

Last reply Today at 1:28 PM · posted in DISH Network Support Forum

Price Increase on Owned Equipment?

Did anyone have a price increase today on their equipment? I own my VIP211k's, and they have been $5.00. My bill that I received last week shows the "add-ons" as being $5.00. However, I just logged into my Dish account, and my "add-ons" are now $10.00. Did the additional receivers go up by $5.00 recently?

As I mentioned, my last bill shows $5.00 and under the notes, nothing is mentioned about a price increase.

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zippyfrog

Today at 11:29 AM

However, when I make a change (tried to add the Columbian pack for $2 so I could generate my bill) and there is a new line - it says "Access for TV" - whereas previously that line item was not there. I hope they aren't charging $5.00 for the initial TV now...

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telstar_1

Today at 11:45 AM

Apparently it's not an "owned receiver" fee but rather an extension fee that's applied to 2nd and subsequent viewing. Maybe that played into their decision to force a box at every TV- garnering those fees

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zippyfrog

Today at 12:34 PM

telstar_1 said:
Apparently it's not an "owned receiver" fee but rather an extension fee that's applied to 2nd and subsequent viewing. Maybe that played into their decision to force a box at every TV- garnering those fees

Possibly. In theory, $9 of the base pack has a rental fee built in. But now is this $5 a chance to get a little more? I don't know for sure. According to chat, it is a glitch and will be resolved in a timely manner, but we shall see. Part of my thinks there is a going to be a new charge, whether it is now or this fall. Here in Illinois, the law requires we are given 30 days notice of any fee changes, but I have not been given anything.

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MikeD-C05

Today at 1:11 PM

These fees are why streaming has caught on so well across the country and DISH is losing subs each quarter. Soon won't be enough subs to be profitable.

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telstar_1

Today at 1:28 PM

Does cable charge box rent?

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Bruce

Supporting Founder Lifetime Supporter

Last reply Today at 1:16 PM · posted in DISH Network Support Forum

Dish Satellite now under 5 Million subscribers/Sling under 2 Million.

With the 1st Quarter Report just released, Dish lost another 180,000, now at 4.84 Million.

Sling now at 1.79 million subscribers, down approximately 190,000.

For comparison, YouTube TV now has about double the subscribers of Dish and Sling combined.

DISH & Sling TV Lost Over 366,000 TV Subscribers In Just 3 Months | Cord Cutters News

EchoStar Corporation, the owner of the DISH Network satellite television service and the Sling TV streaming platform, continued to experience steep declines in its pay-television customer base during the first three months of 2026. The company reported a net loss of approximately 366,000 pay-TV...

cordcuttersnews.com

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fmj77

May 11, 2026

I'm surprised Dish still has that many subscribers. I don't know a single person in my area that is still with them after getting either Starlink or fiber at their home. They all cancelled Dish and went with streaming. I used to get offers pretty regularly in the mail to come back to Dish, but no more. Haven't seen one in a couple of years now.

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Bruce

May 11, 2026

fmj77 said:
I'm surprised Dish still has that many subscribers. I don't know a single person in my area that is still with them after getting either Starlink or fiber at their home. They all cancelled Dish and went with streaming. I used to get offers pretty regularly in the mail to come back to Dish, but no more. Haven't seen one in a couple of years now.

Only about 3.6% of Households in the United States, still have Dish Network.

For comparison, YouTube TV has about 10%.

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Yespage

May 18, 2026

$25 a month for 1 gig, for two years with Spectrum. I'd be darned that their router was MUCH better than AT&T's. I didn't realize that what I thought was something else was the bloody router. Those buffering issues stopped when I swapped... after AT&T refused to lower my bill, after 25 years of high speed internet service. They wanted $80 or so a month for 1 gig, with no drop to a lower speed.

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telstar_1

Jun 2, 2026

I despise that most of all. I'm going to talk to a remote?

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tsunami2311

Friday at 11:03 PM

Yespage said:
$25 a month for 1 gig, for two years with Spectrum. I'd be darned that their router was MUCH better than AT&T's. I didn't realize that what I thought was something else was the bloody router. Those buffering issues stopped when I swapped... after AT&T refused to lower my bill, after 25 years of high speed internet service. They wanted $80 or so a month for 1 gig, with no drop to a lower speed.

1gbit up and down here from att start out great was suppose to be $60 for life of service, with years time it went back up to $80 I complained about they gave us $49 for year which about to end, I Wonder what prices will be when it "up" I in no way like ATT fiber service there DNS that are hardcode and unchange able in the router are some WORSE DNS I ever used. you know how much of pain it is to change DNS setting on EVERY single wireless device...

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mwdxer1

Saturday at 3:08 AM

Bruce said:
Only about 3.6% of Households in the United States, still have Dish Network.

For comparison, YouTube TV has about 10%.

I dropped Dish a couple years back after having them for 25 years. The pricing got higher and after we got high speed internet, I watched it less and less. It got to the point all I watched was TCM for classic movies. Many of them are on You Tube now and a Premium subscription is $14 a month. A far cry of the $100 a month was paying with AT180, Supers, and locals. I get locals OTA anyway. I took down the dish several months ago and tossed it. I owned all my my equipment, so nothing to return. Do I miss a traditional cable type service? No way. If I want one I have all of the free live streaming with Roku, the Fire Stick, as well as Google TV. Right now as I type this, I am watching episodes of "The Midnight Special" from 1976 on You Tube, ad free. Dish was fine for many years. I do not regret buying the equipment and installing it myself (No installers in 1999). I enjoyed Dish for many years. My thoughts, Dish & Direct will be forced to merge in time, or they both will be gone. Even cable companies are getting out of TV. Some are only selling the internet and phone packages.

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tanman

Sunday at 12:01 PM

telstar_1 said:
I despise that most of all. I'm going to talk to a remote?

Hello Computer On Phone GIF - Hello Computer Hello On Phone - Discover & Share GIFs

Click to view the GIF

tenor.com

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nelson61

Monday at 8:20 PM

A lot of it flows back to the 4 big networks.
Cable and satellite are their money tree.

But, in reality, each market need 1 or perhaps 2 news feeds - not 4 or more

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MikeD-C05

Today at 1:16 PM

nelson61 said:
A lot of it flows back to the 4 big networks.
Cable and satellite are their money tree.

But, in reality, each market need 1 or perhaps 2 news feeds - not 4 or more

In my area we get 2 news feeds spread over 4 local stations.
ABC/NBC (TEGNA)
Same news cast simulcast over both channels.

CBS/Fox (Sinclair)
Same news casters at 5pm, 6pm, 10pm.
Fox shows an hour at 9pm but same news casters.

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