Social Feed

Cable vs Dish vs Direct

It honestly all depends on how good your cable company is. They are ALL getting better, improving and adding value far faster than either Dish or Direct. They all seem to vary on price, programming, service and equipment.

If you're fortunate enough, you may end up with a cable provider that has a lot of HD content, good equipment and competitive prices. More and more are moving that way each day. I tried the 921 and also found it to be very very problematic - in particular when usint OTA features (which of course you really need because Dish has so little HD content). I returned it (and am waiting for my $549 refund) after I had cable installed and evaluated it at the same time I had Dish. So, I had a side by side comparison.

I got no incentives from cable, so what I pay now is the "regular" pricing. My cable bill is lower than my Dish bill was. It includes three HD DVRs, and I get absolutely everything except PPVs included. That means all premium channels, all networks in HD except for Fox at the moment, InHD and HDNet, etc. And, I had no install costs whatsoever and no contract. If the DVR malfunctions for some reason, I can swap it out that day at no charge. Over a month into it, I have not had a single failure or reboot required for my Cable DVRs. I couldn't go more than a day without rebooting the 921.

The bottom line is that Dish and Direct are pretty constant - you ought to know what you're getting (although as you have mentioned yourself, it's REALLY hard to get a straight answer from them). With cable, it really depends on your provider. While I do have high confidence that no matter where you're at your cable provider will only improve over time, I personally don't see much probability that Dish or Direct will improve at the same rate. If you have a lousy cable provider right now, I'd wait a bit - or, as I mentioned before, take a look at a device like the Toshiba Symbio.

kluken said:

If my car were as reliable as the 921 I would be walking or cabbing a lot or buying a horse!

Click to expand...

I wasn't saying it was perfect, just putting the sweeping claims into perspective. yes, is is buggy, but I tell you what, anytime the human factor is introduced, things break. Would I buy ANOTHER 921? No. But with the one I have, it is finally working well enough that I am not constantly pissed off at it.

Again, it has NEVER broken on me. Broken to me is send in for repair/replacement. Missing a timer is NOT Broken, that is a bug in the software.

I do think dish should have recalled these and fixed the major issues or gave early adopters a credit for the hassle, but that would be goodwill and good customer relations. We know they don't do that. All they are about is NEW subscribers and not keeping the existing base happy.

I had directv for years, their receivers were buggy for me almost as much as dish's. I have never had a Direct DVR so I cannot compare those. Don't even get me going on Charter's DVR for my area. Add TIVO slowness to Dish's bugs. Those reasons I stay with dish (the price is still the lowest for what I watch)

Another person who "settled"

To say it again, This has not a f*(#HG thing to do with the "Human Factor"!

The problems with the 921 are a "constants" meaning that Dish has absolutely no variables beyond their control to fix. The hardware belongs to them, the software belongs to them, the stream belongs to them, the accounts belong to them, authentication belongs to them, the dishes belong to them... do I need to continue? What I mean is that in contrast to your car, etc, we have no ability to change a frigging thing on the receiver. Period. It should behave exactly the same for every user on similar plans, regardless of where on the planet they live. Period. That makes for some pretty darn easy use cases and test cases. There is NO human factor to consider here - unless the human touch actually pressing the button on the remote is somehow different. When I press "select" I'm making a huge assumption that it's the same as when you press "select".

OTOH, cable providers have a much more difficult problem. Let's take the SA8300 series. They are used by various cable providers. Each of them has their own unique SW version they're running. So, SA provides the HW, each individual cable provider modifies their own SW and content. Then, as compared to Sat where you either get the signal or not (obviously assuming reasonable signal strength) with cable you get yet another slew of issues to deal with. Same goes for the Moto units.

Missing a timer IS broken - unless somewhere that means to you "working as designed". If I was OK with missing programming, I wouldn't need a DVR. 14 months is MORE than long enough to fix SW problems. Remember - THEY CONTROL EVERYTHING IN THE PROCESS!

Sorry for the soap box, but I truly believe that people simply accepting what is reasonably unacceptable quality and support are primary causes for - unacceptable quality and support. You shouldn't be "not constantly pissed off at it". You should be happy with it. From your post, I'm guessing you may have paid the full monty ($1k). Even at $549 it was robbery considering the fact that the issues have not been resolved. And they could have been. I truly feel for everyone having trouble with the 921 who tried to stick it out, and is now left hanging.

Going over a month since I installed the 3 SA8300HDs to replace my unreliable 921. Not a single missed timer, reboot, lockup, etc, etc. etc. It just works. Like the 921 should have.

SatinKzo said:

but I tell you what, anytime the human factor is introduced, things break. Would I buy ANOTHER 921? No. But with the one I have, it is finally working well enough that I am not constantly pissed off at it.

Again, it has NEVER broken on me. Broken to me is send in for repair/replacement. Missing a timer is NOT Broken, that is a bug in the software.

Click to expand...

But there are many variables in the numerous 921's. From the 3 I have seen, there is different firmware, different board revisions etc. Heck I had 5 811's in 9 months, they all literally broke (stopped turning on, lost programming and could not be reprogrammed, lost DVI output). Every single one of the 811's was different in some way. The biggest being the mainboard differences. A

Any I still stand by the human factor cause not all people treat the units the same. Some don't ventilate them well, some put them on subwoofers (viibration and HD's is not a good thing as we all know). Some plug them into faulty power lines. So see that is the human factor I am talking about. Let's not even start on the human factor involved when doing the programming. Who knows how many different hands and coding techniques have had a part in the 921. I know from years of programming (I am sure there are many others here too) that a programmer's style is unique and can easily cause problems within the same source with another programmer's code.

It is the same as PC's and cars(again for the example). Some people never take care of their car but get pissed when things break. PC's are fine out of the box more times than not, but people still break them. We can go back and forth on this for days I am sure. I see your point and if you just read what I am saying, you can see where I am coming from.

Again, I am in no way defending the 921, it's track record is horrible and as with most cosumer electronics (PC's, DVD, TV's etc) we have, from some reason, come to accept mediocre products. For heaven's sake, look as Windows. That software has been crap since day 1, but is was less crappy then other stuff at the time for the daily user. Granted, I like OS/2, but not many others did outside the techie area to make it profitable. So basically dish, like many companies appears to be doing a feature/cost analysys similar to supply/demand and hitting a sweet spot. Making products that people on this forum are mad at, but the majority of the public thinks are fine and are used to bugs in the software.

You just had to do it, didn't you?

I'll try to be patient, and I'm not being sarcastic here.

You're wrong - period.

Let's get this straight. All the variables you mention are completely controlled by Dish. Do you understand what I'm saying? The firmware (software), board revisions, cards, etc. Every single one is controlled by Dish - and only Dish. Nobody else. Ever. Human factor is absolutely not a variable in this area because proper testing and QA procedures should eliminate variability caused by human interaction. Ever heard if Six Sigma? DMAIC, baby! (Define, Measure, Analyze, Improve, Control). Believe me, I'm in the business and you couldn't be more wrong. Since you're in the SW business (as am I) how about ITIL? Maybe Rational? All of those processes are designed to do one thing - provide a high quality product. Different coding "styles" and "techniques" are the reason we have standards in application development, and why we have integration testing. So, for this item if you're defending the sw because "people" have hands in writing it, you really shouldn't be in a commercial SW development market. No insult intended, but we spend a heck of a lot of time insuring that we don't do what Dish does. And, we're successful at it. And, we don't control all the variables that Dish does.

As for how the units are treated, I'm personally dismissing that completely. Way too many problems with people having them plugged into online UPS, in areas where all other (even more sensitive type) devices happily work away. No way.

Now, for the ridiculous part, HOW THE H*&L CAN YOU COMPARE DEVELOPING THE 921 TO PC'S? Are you REALLY in SW development? Let me ask you some questions for consideration.

1) How many different system boards from DIFFERENT manufacturers, using different graphics adapters of different technologies from different manufacturers and ethernet adapters of different chipsets from different manufacturers does MS have to release their OS for? How many different board revisions do you think exist for each one of these examples? Dish software only has to work for hardware Dish designed and sold directly. No modifications.

2) How many different programs, applications, patches, components, etc, etc, etc, does the average person install on their PC? How many do OTHER people install on your PC (spyware, popups, virus, etc)? Dish software only has to work for hardware and software directly designed, sold and installed by Dish. No modifications.

3) How many people do you see carrying their 921 around in a flimsy leather or vinyl bag, yanking it out on airplanes, sending it through metal detectors, etc, etc. Hmmmmm.

I won't even begin to get into the car thing. Your analogy is wrong. It is not accurate. It has no bearing. It should not be spoken in public without fear of death by stoning. OK, I'm joking. About the death by stoning thing.

Let me put it this way. If I didn't need to worry about releasing applications that needed to worry about multiple browser types, different java runtime engines, ActiveX controls, operating system patches on client machines, internet induced network latency, non-standard port assignments in rules based firewalls, on machines that people can install whatever the h*#l they want any time, etc, etc, etc..... Well, let's just say that I'd be getting a lot more sleep. To put it simply, if I had control over my entire environment (including every single one of my customers) like Dish does, I'd be jumping for joy.

Nobody should ever, under any circumstances, ever, compare the reliability of a Dish product to a PC. There is absolutely no comparison whatsoever for any reason in any case. Don't even think about comparing Dish products to Windows. Windows is SO much higher quality considering all the variables out there (not to mention that the biggest problem they have is people TRYING to break it - not use it) that it's not eve worth bringing up. I also don't want to hear the OS2 song and dance. Or the Linux, etc. If you want to debate operating systems, fine. But, we're debating quality from Dish. Don't mix the two. You'll lose.

Let's also not compare the quality with other consumer products. How many $500+ DVD players are that unreliable? Name one. How many Home Theater AVRs are that unreliable? Name one.

I hope that's clear enough. I appreciate you're not intending to defend Dish, but that's what your message is.

SatinKzo said:

But there are many variables in the numerous 921's. From the 3 I have seen, there is different firmware, different board revisions etc. Heck I had 5 811's in 9 months, they all literally broke (stopped turning on, lost programming and could not be reprogrammed, lost DVI output). Every single one of the 811's was different in some way. The biggest being the mainboard differences. A

Any I still stand by the human factor cause not all people treat the units the same. Some don't ventilate them well, some put them on subwoofers (viibration and HD's is not a good thing as we all know). Some plug them into faulty power lines. So see that is the human factor I am talking about. Let's not even start on the human factor involved when doing the programming. Who knows how many different hands and coding techniques have had a part in the 921. I know from years of programming (I am sure there are many others here too) that a programmer's style is unique and can easily cause problems within the same source with another programmer's code.

It is the same as PC's and cars(again for the example). Some people never take care of their car but get pissed when things break. PC's are fine out of the box more times than not, but people still break them. We can go back and forth on this for days I am sure. I see your point and if you just read what I am saying, you can see where I am coming from.

Again, I am in no way defending the 921, it's track record is horrible and as with most cosumer electronics (PC's, DVD, TV's etc) we have, from some reason, come to accept mediocre products. For heaven's sake, look as Windows. That software has been crap since day 1, but is was less crappy then other stuff at the time for the daily user. Granted, I like OS/2, but not many others did outside the techie area to make it profitable. So basically dish, like many companies appears to be doing a feature/cost analysys similar to supply/demand and hitting a sweet spot. Making products that people on this forum are mad at, but the majority of the public thinks are fine and are used to bugs in the software.

Click to expand...