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Will62

Last reply Jul 17, 2020 · posted in Over the Air Television By RabbitEars.Info

VHF Low Reception

Real Channel 5. Field Strength in DB is 38.11 and the Noise Margin is 10.11 according to the Rabbit Ears Signal Analysis Tool. Probably a 2 edge signal. Antenna height is at 25 feet above ground level.

Thought that purchasing a J55 from Wade cut to Channel 5 but wondered if purchasing something like a Channel Master Masterpiece 100 or Winegard 8200 might be sufficient? Any other options to consider?

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Tower Guy

Jun 29, 2020

Before you even start considering a good antenna, try listening to your car radio on 530 KHZ while you drive by your house. If you hear the noise level rise in the vicinity of your location, there is line noise that would need to be fixed by the power company.

10 dB of noise margin is usually too little for low band reception. I know that TVfool does not consider the 4 dB of NM that the FCC subtracts due to noise. I believe that the rabbitears NM calculation does so, but I have never verified it.

In order to offer a recommendation , I would consider the terrain in front of your antenna, the distance to the nearest hill in the direction of channel 5, and the height of that hill. With this data, it would be possible to calculate an optimum height to install a channel 5 antenna. Such an install would add 6 dB of ground gain, which would be necessary to override low band noise levels.

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Jim5506

Jun 30, 2020

At your distance height and obstructions are your biggest enemies. The TVFool propagation map shows the area to be very spotty even from one house to the neighbor's house the signal can go from poor to none.

If there is any way you can get you antenna up to 45 -50 ft. that appears to almost double your potential signal from WOI.

I use the mapping facility (right side of the page) in TVFool.

While their database may be out of date, it still shows me where hot spots are for a station's signal and lets me easily adjust my antenna height to see how helpful greater elevation is.

Clicking on the radio button before each station in the list shows that stations calculated radiation profile. Moving from purple to dark blue can potentially double your signal.

Will62

Jun 30, 2020

The one positive factor at the moment is that the home faces north and I noted that there is nothing across the street that blocks the signals. Just a large garden. Nearest building appears to be a block away.

Not sure if zoning will allow a tower of that size on that property. Guessing I can do 30 feet but not much else but I can check with zoning before I make an offer on the home. I have a year to work on this. Even if purchase it this Summer, it will be a year before I relocate. Can perhaps figure this out by that time.

What would be the best pre amp for this situation? I know a low noise floor is best. Finding one that works well for VHF low is essential.

primestar31

Jun 30, 2020

Best pre-amp hands down is the Kitztech KT-200-COAX model. Though amping VHF-LOW can be problematical. No way to tell if it helps or hurts, until you try. KT-200 TV Booster

rabbit73

Jul 17, 2020

Tower Guy said:
10 dB of noise margin is usually too little for low band reception. I know that TVfool does not consider the 4 dB of NM that the FCC subtracts due to noise. I believe that the rabbitears NM calculation does so, but I have never verified it.

I'm a new member here, but have been helping with reception problems on other forums for more than 10 years. My particular interest is reliable reception on VHF where the noise level is much higher than on UHF, which reduces the SNR and requires stronger signals.

I'm in a retirement home presently on lockdown, so I'm focusing on indoor VHF reception.

When Trip was developing his new Signal Search Map, he asked me to be a Beta Tester. I noticed that the results for his TVStudy-based Signal Search Map didn't track with the results of a TVFool report. This was his answer:

Trip PM Quotes about correction factors for VHF noise

08-15-2018, 05:47 AM
Extract from PM
Re: Strength Search Test Results

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA

The minimum field strength for TV is a calculated figure that assumes things like receive antenna gain and line loss and the like, but does not take into account factors like VHF noise. Those values are 28 dBuV/m for low-VHF, 36 dBuV/m for high-VHF, and 41+(20*log(f/615)) dBuV/m for UHF (where f is the center frequency of the channel). In my Longley-Rice maps, I use 41 dBuV/m as the cut-off level for all three bands, which effectively provides a 5 dB correction for high-VHF and a 13 dB correction for low-VHF. I've done the same thing with the Strength column here. Then the Margin column is largely a placeholder while I try to figure out if I can get the path information out of TVStudy (LOS, 1Edge, etc.) but is designed to be akin to Noise Margin on TVFool; it subtracts the minimum field strength values from the aforementioned (uncorrected) minimum values, which is why the order of the margin column doesn't always line up with the strength column.

08-16-2018, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip in VA

The FCC proposed raising VHF power levels across the board, and there was so much push-back from broadcasters that they let it die. The broadcasters wanted it handled case-by-case and not with a broad brush, for whatever reason. Of course, stations are complaining about it now, but in 2010, it was exactly what they wanted. But the planning factors do not account for VHF noise or for the fact that most antennas sold today are not capable of receiving VHF (especially low-VHF) well. That's why my maps have those correction factors, and I would argue they're not enough.

END OF EXTRACTS FROM PMs

I used this indoor folded dipole antenna for tests on CH3:

The channel 3 signal had to be no less than -57 dBm for minimum required SNR for reliable reception:

Even on VHF-High a signal has to be stronger because the noise level is higher on VHF-High than UHF:

It's worse on VHF-Low.

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Tower Guy

Jul 17, 2020

Hi Rabbit;

In your room I'd build a full wave delta loop behind the dresser with the apex on top and the wire scotch taped to the back of the dresser. It could be fed at either the top of the delta, or the middle of the bottom. I did a similar thing for channel six, but I taped a rectangular full wave loop to the back of a dresser. My dresser doesn't have a mirror.
I fed it with a 300 ohm balun with good results.

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TWiT Tech Podcast Network

27 minutes ago · posted in TWiT Tech Podcast Network

Apple Intelligence: Siri AI Revolutionizes Your Devices! #shorts

Time for another AWESOME video from the TWIT Network!

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8ErY6s7b8WI

Direct YouTube Link - Apple Intelligence: Siri AI Revolutionizes Your Devices! #shorts
TWIT's Website
TWIT Live Feed

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TWiT Tech Podcast Network

58 minutes ago · posted in TWiT Tech Podcast Network

Tech News Weekly 441

Time for another AWESOME video from the TWIT Network!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL5XFOpX4_A

Direct YouTube Link - Tech News Weekly 441
TWIT's Website
TWIT Live Feed

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TWiT Tech Podcast Network

58 minutes ago · posted in TWiT Tech Podcast Network

Home Theater Audio: JBL SCL-6 Speaker Custom Build! #shorts

Time for another AWESOME video from the TWIT Network!

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/CRhynF2RE20

Direct YouTube Link - Home Theater Audio: JBL SCL-6 Speaker Custom Build! #shorts
TWIT's Website
TWIT Live Feed

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teachtom

59 minutes ago · posted in DISH Network Support Forum

Problem when I switch from Bonus View channels back to regular Dish channels

Hello everyone, new guy here. I'm trying to solve problem I'm having with Dish bonus view channels. When I'm watching the bonus view channels then I switch back to regular dish channels, after few minutes the screen flips to black and after 30 seconds flips back to regular channels and continues to flip back and forth until I turn off TV. After I wait 30 minutes and turn back on , I can use regular channels again. So, its after I switch from bonus view channels to regular dish channels the problem starts. Been trying to fix this for a month, but no luck
Here what I've done.
i contacted Dish support and they sent me a new Joey3, but no help. Switched to a different HDMI input on TV, no help. Used different HDMI cable , no help. Used different electrical wall plug, no help.
Finally got a Dish tech to check it. He ran all systems check and was OK. Finally he brought in a small TV and plugged in the HDMI out from the Joey to the small TV. He could not get the problem to occur on his small TV, so the new Joey was working OK. So, then the problem must be myTV. He made some phone calls and came back with the answer that there must be a problem with the analog to digital switch in my TV. Has anyone ever heard of a problem like this, or is it time to be looking for a new TV? My tv LG OLED65C8PUA. TV has been trouble free til now. Thanks

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dfergie

Staff member HERE TO HELP YOU!

Last reply Today at 2:19 PM · posted in What's Cooking?

What's For Lunch?

We have a Breakfast and Dinner thread so...

Continuing from the Breakfast thread, found Cornbread mix so ...
Yellow Cornbread Mix
2 Hatch Green Chiles -diced
1 Egg
2/3 cup of milk
add to greased pan
Bake for 400f 20-25 minutes(From instructions)
now to put together and try... this to go with pinto beans...

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TRG

Monday at 3:34 PM

Pork shoulder, refried beans, cheddar and chopped green chile burrito with a pint of pale ale.

Its nice being able to have a pint with lunch during the week or whenever. I've been enjoying the retired life.

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dfergie

Monday at 4:27 PM

TRG said:
Pork shoulder, refried beans, cheddar and chopped green chile burrito with a pint of pale ale.

Its nice being able to have a pint with lunch during the week or whenever. I've been enjoying the retired life.

View attachment 191651

Congrats! I love retirement, no wake ups, no e-mails...
Leftovers for lunch, bacon wrapped salmon fillet from Saturday and a KFC thigh from Friday, Tea.

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TRG

Monday at 4:50 PM

dfergie said:
Congrats! I love retirement, no wake ups, no e-mails...
Leftovers for lunch, bacon wrapped salmon fillet from Saturday and a KFC thigh from Friday, Tea.

I've been retired since October. It was very strange at first. But I'm loving it now.

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TRG

Yesterday at 4:11 PM

Creamy flat chicken enchiladas with green chile, beans and rice.

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dfergie

Today at 2:05 PM

Layered Spicy Dorito / chili cheese Frito pie casserole…real sugar Pepsi

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TRG

Today at 2:19 PM

I had a very unusual but delicious 1/4lb hotdog with cream cheese, raspberry preserves and chopped Hatch green chile. It is an unlikely combination but it works.

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N5XZS

Last reply Today at 2:08 PM · posted in Over the Air Television By RabbitEars.Info

New low power station with CP has been granted. "Albuquerque "

New low power station has been granted by the FCC and the new call leter is K33OB-D on RF ch. 33.

Will run at 15 KW ERP, this one runs from the Westside same location as KWPL-LD a HC2 owned station.

It's going to be aimed at eastern part of Albuquerque, so it's tightly focused beam pattern.

This new station is owned by Digital Network and what kind of programmings is unkown at this time.

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N5XZS

Yesterday at 4:51 PM

Yeah, there are some diginets like Heartland, Retro, The Family Channel diginetworks that we already have here in this market and we don't need duplicates, but bring the new diginets on like the Rev'n, Karate Acton movies, different kind of music videos on the new station. :hatsoff2

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comfortably_numb

Yesterday at 4:54 PM

N5XZS said:
Yeah, there are some diginets like Heartland, Retro, The Family Channel diginetworks that we already have here in this market and we don't need duplicates, but bring the new diginets like Revn, Karate Acton movies, different kind of music videos on the new station.

I watch MovieSphere Gold channel a lot. Many recent movies on that digitnet

N5XZS

Yesterday at 4:59 PM

Yes that's a good channel MovieSphere, only thing is the missing CC on it.

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comfortably_numb

Today at 1:35 AM

According to the FCC listing, the tower is near I-40 and Juan Tabo:

FCCInfo Results

FCC Info is a Radio and Television Station Search Engine provided by Cavell, Mertz & Associates, Inc.

www.fccinfo.com

primestar31

Today at 2:08 PM

comfortably_numb said:
According to the FCC listing, the tower is near I-40 and Juan Tabo:

FCCInfo Results

FCC Info is a Radio and Television Station Search Engine provided by Cavell, Mertz & Associates, Inc.

www.fccinfo.com

Many of these in my DMA are on cell towers, so don't always reach very far because the towers aren't very high.

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Linus Tech Tips

Today at 2:02 PM · posted in Linus Tech Tips

I Found Free Money in the Tech House

Time for another AWESOME video from Linus Tech Tips!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FoAOhbeo5Y

Direct YouTube Link - I Found Free Money in the Tech House
Linus on Facebook
The LTT Store

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TWiT Tech Podcast Network

Today at 1:32 PM · posted in TWiT Tech Podcast Network

Hollywood Faces the AI Tipping Point with Robert Tercek

Time for another AWESOME video from the TWIT Network!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOgBoy9ScCY

Direct YouTube Link - Hollywood Faces the AI Tipping Point with Robert Tercek
TWIT's Website
TWIT Live Feed

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zippyfrog

Pub Member / Supporter Lifetime Supporter

Last reply Today at 1:28 PM · posted in DISH Network Support Forum

Price Increase on Owned Equipment?

Did anyone have a price increase today on their equipment? I own my VIP211k's, and they have been $5.00. My bill that I received last week shows the "add-ons" as being $5.00. However, I just logged into my Dish account, and my "add-ons" are now $10.00. Did the additional receivers go up by $5.00 recently?

As I mentioned, my last bill shows $5.00 and under the notes, nothing is mentioned about a price increase.

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zippyfrog

Today at 11:29 AM

However, when I make a change (tried to add the Columbian pack for $2 so I could generate my bill) and there is a new line - it says "Access for TV" - whereas previously that line item was not there. I hope they aren't charging $5.00 for the initial TV now...

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telstar_1

Today at 11:45 AM

Apparently it's not an "owned receiver" fee but rather an extension fee that's applied to 2nd and subsequent viewing. Maybe that played into their decision to force a box at every TV- garnering those fees

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zippyfrog

Today at 12:34 PM

telstar_1 said:
Apparently it's not an "owned receiver" fee but rather an extension fee that's applied to 2nd and subsequent viewing. Maybe that played into their decision to force a box at every TV- garnering those fees

Possibly. In theory, $9 of the base pack has a rental fee built in. But now is this $5 a chance to get a little more? I don't know for sure. According to chat, it is a glitch and will be resolved in a timely manner, but we shall see. Part of my thinks there is a going to be a new charge, whether it is now or this fall. Here in Illinois, the law requires we are given 30 days notice of any fee changes, but I have not been given anything.

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MikeD-C05

Today at 1:11 PM

These fees are why streaming has caught on so well across the country and DISH is losing subs each quarter. Soon won't be enough subs to be profitable.

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telstar_1

Today at 1:28 PM

Does cable charge box rent?

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Bruce

Supporting Founder Lifetime Supporter

Last reply Today at 1:16 PM · posted in DISH Network Support Forum

Dish Satellite now under 5 Million subscribers/Sling under 2 Million.

With the 1st Quarter Report just released, Dish lost another 180,000, now at 4.84 Million.

Sling now at 1.79 million subscribers, down approximately 190,000.

For comparison, YouTube TV now has about double the subscribers of Dish and Sling combined.

DISH & Sling TV Lost Over 366,000 TV Subscribers In Just 3 Months | Cord Cutters News

EchoStar Corporation, the owner of the DISH Network satellite television service and the Sling TV streaming platform, continued to experience steep declines in its pay-television customer base during the first three months of 2026. The company reported a net loss of approximately 366,000 pay-TV...

cordcuttersnews.com

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fmj77

May 11, 2026

I'm surprised Dish still has that many subscribers. I don't know a single person in my area that is still with them after getting either Starlink or fiber at their home. They all cancelled Dish and went with streaming. I used to get offers pretty regularly in the mail to come back to Dish, but no more. Haven't seen one in a couple of years now.

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Bruce

May 11, 2026

fmj77 said:
I'm surprised Dish still has that many subscribers. I don't know a single person in my area that is still with them after getting either Starlink or fiber at their home. They all cancelled Dish and went with streaming. I used to get offers pretty regularly in the mail to come back to Dish, but no more. Haven't seen one in a couple of years now.

Only about 3.6% of Households in the United States, still have Dish Network.

For comparison, YouTube TV has about 10%.

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Yespage

May 18, 2026

$25 a month for 1 gig, for two years with Spectrum. I'd be darned that their router was MUCH better than AT&T's. I didn't realize that what I thought was something else was the bloody router. Those buffering issues stopped when I swapped... after AT&T refused to lower my bill, after 25 years of high speed internet service. They wanted $80 or so a month for 1 gig, with no drop to a lower speed.

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telstar_1

Jun 2, 2026

I despise that most of all. I'm going to talk to a remote?

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tsunami2311

Friday at 11:03 PM

Yespage said:
$25 a month for 1 gig, for two years with Spectrum. I'd be darned that their router was MUCH better than AT&T's. I didn't realize that what I thought was something else was the bloody router. Those buffering issues stopped when I swapped... after AT&T refused to lower my bill, after 25 years of high speed internet service. They wanted $80 or so a month for 1 gig, with no drop to a lower speed.

1gbit up and down here from att start out great was suppose to be $60 for life of service, with years time it went back up to $80 I complained about they gave us $49 for year which about to end, I Wonder what prices will be when it "up" I in no way like ATT fiber service there DNS that are hardcode and unchange able in the router are some WORSE DNS I ever used. you know how much of pain it is to change DNS setting on EVERY single wireless device...

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mwdxer1

Saturday at 3:08 AM

Bruce said:
Only about 3.6% of Households in the United States, still have Dish Network.

For comparison, YouTube TV has about 10%.

I dropped Dish a couple years back after having them for 25 years. The pricing got higher and after we got high speed internet, I watched it less and less. It got to the point all I watched was TCM for classic movies. Many of them are on You Tube now and a Premium subscription is $14 a month. A far cry of the $100 a month was paying with AT180, Supers, and locals. I get locals OTA anyway. I took down the dish several months ago and tossed it. I owned all my my equipment, so nothing to return. Do I miss a traditional cable type service? No way. If I want one I have all of the free live streaming with Roku, the Fire Stick, as well as Google TV. Right now as I type this, I am watching episodes of "The Midnight Special" from 1976 on You Tube, ad free. Dish was fine for many years. I do not regret buying the equipment and installing it myself (No installers in 1999). I enjoyed Dish for many years. My thoughts, Dish & Direct will be forced to merge in time, or they both will be gone. Even cable companies are getting out of TV. Some are only selling the internet and phone packages.

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tanman

Sunday at 12:01 PM

telstar_1 said:
I despise that most of all. I'm going to talk to a remote?

Hello Computer On Phone GIF - Hello Computer Hello On Phone - Discover & Share GIFs

Click to view the GIF

tenor.com

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nelson61

Monday at 8:20 PM

A lot of it flows back to the 4 big networks.
Cable and satellite are their money tree.

But, in reality, each market need 1 or perhaps 2 news feeds - not 4 or more

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MikeD-C05

Today at 1:16 PM

nelson61 said:
A lot of it flows back to the 4 big networks.
Cable and satellite are their money tree.

But, in reality, each market need 1 or perhaps 2 news feeds - not 4 or more

In my area we get 2 news feeds spread over 4 local stations.
ABC/NBC (TEGNA)
Same news cast simulcast over both channels.

CBS/Fox (Sinclair)
Same news casters at 5pm, 6pm, 10pm.
Fox shows an hour at 9pm but same news casters.

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