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k4otl said:

My idea of doing this is to align the dish's azimuth at the zenith sat, get the elevation/declination as close as one could manage, then drive to the closest sat receivable, if it's right the first time, hooray.

Click to expand...

To add to what Primestar wrote, I would use what I call the USALS-method for a (random) reference satellite, which is partly as you describe:

1. Set motor-axis-at-zero and dish (and LNB arm) exactly in line with each other, with proper axis elevation angle and dish declination offset angle, in the general due south direction, as if you aim at your zenith/apex.

2. a. Rotate the motor axis to your visible (new) reference satellite position, using USALS GotoX command.
b. When you don't have USALS but an actuator, you can measure the relevant distances from the actuator triangle, calculate the rotation angle from due south to your chosen reference satellite (always a bit more than the difference in degrees arc), and then calculate the needed actuator length for the reference satellite. Then go to that actuator length.
c. When not using USALS or actuator length, you could calculate the rotation angle from due south to your chosen reference satellite, and maybe set and measure the needed rotation angle of the axis somehow.
d. Another, rough, method would be: Calculate the rotation angle from due south to your chosen reference satellite (always a bit more than the difference in degrees arc), then calculate the distance that the left and right side of the dish have to move forward and backward (given the width of the dish), and then rotate the motor to that position.

3. When you immediately find your reference satellite, your due south was already very good. Otherwise rotate the whole setup around the pole a bit, to find your reference satellite.
When you have finetuned your reference satellite position, your due south is also good, because of the used angle distance between the reference satellite and the due south position.

4. When still no luck, change the axis elevation a bit, and repeat step 3 on different elevation angles.

I hope you understand the procedure.

Greetz,
A33

I also do not understand the reason to use the USALS protocol to calculate positioning with a Reed switch pulse count linear actuator.

Use the sun's position and feedhorn shadow to determine where the dish is aimed. Simply motor the dish until the shadow of the feed falls on the vertical axis of the reflector. Take note of the exact time and use this calculator to determine the exact longitude that the dish is aimed with one of the dozens of solar position online calculators. Example: Calculation of sun's position in the sky for each location on the earth at any time of day

Titanium said:

Use the sun's position and feedhorn shadow to determine where the dish is aimed. Simply motor the dish until the shadow of the feed falls on the vertical axis of the reflector.

Click to expand...

For a prime focus dish, that is clear.
How do you use this sun method with an offset dish, moved by an actuator?

a33 said:

For a prime focus dish, that is clear.
How do you use this sun method with an offset dish, moved by an actuator?

Click to expand...

I may have misunderstood the poster's question, but thought he was installing a C-band prime focus.

Titanium said:

I may have misunderstood the poster's question, but thought he was installing a C-band prime focus.

Click to expand...

Yeah the Hughesnet dishes are remaining stationary. I will eventually motorize a Ku dish of some sort, I've got the motor, but not in a hurry. I am working on installing the 10' C-band dish. I've got a v box (as well as the analog receiver) and the actuator works. When I get some free time (and help), I'll get the 10 footer mounted on the pole and go from there. Thanks for all the info!

The original question was asking about both an USALS Ku dish or a BUD and the fact I don't have good LOS to zenith sat (82W). The BUD comes first (within a week). USALS Ku much later (months?).

k4otl said:

Yeah the Hughesnet dishes are remaining stationary. I will eventually motorize a Ku dish of some sort, I've got the motor, but not in a hurry. I am working on installing the 10' C-band dish. I've got a v box (as well as the analog receiver) and the actuator works. When I get some free time (and help), I'll get the 10 footer mounted on the pole and go from there. Thanks for all the info!

The original question was asking about both an USALS Ku dish or a BUD and the fact I don't have good LOS to zenith sat (82W). The BUD comes first (within a week). USALS Ku much later (months?).

Click to expand...

The question remains. Do the HN dishes have the original pole mounts with the degree adjustment? Not motorized tells me that they might. That would be important in determining the look angle, or how the lnbf reflects off of the dish face. Could be 22 degrees. Could be something else. You'll need to know that when slapping them on a USALS motor.

A 10 footer sounds like it may be prime focus. If so. The polar angle and at least using a straight edge vertical on the dish face at zentih should be parallel. With a few degrees here or there for wiggle room. In an optimum situation, they will.
Then adding the declination angle is easy.

Pipe in guys. I'm fairly positive an analog receiver is a no-go. Even if you manage to get it on frequency of a transponder. Due to the modulation schemes, the receiver would be blind.

Where you live for c band. 84W would be a good target sat for signal hunting ad tweaking in the lnbf for c band. I get some signal on it on the Eastern side of the US.

Unknown look angle. I was peeing around with a Wild Blue 1 meter oval dish with retroreflector and TRIA a few years ago.
I wanted to put a ku lnbf on it. The retroreflector was removed and I needed to find the right spot to mount the lnbf.
They say use mirrors, aluminum foil around the rim of the dish and point it at the sun with a chunk of paper where you're trying to find the best focal spot. I used a Wally World sporting goods section mirrored space blanket cut into a ring and used soapy water to stick it around the rim a few inches from the edge. Made my measurements and actually got a signal in a few minutes after mounting it on a pole. Just an FYI.

arlo said:

The question remains. Do the HN dishes have the original pole mounts with the degree adjustment? Not motorized tells me that they might. That would be important in determining the look angle, or how the lnbf reflects off of the dish face. Could be 22 degrees. Could be something else. You'll need to know that when slapping them on a USALS motor.

A 10 footer sounds like it may be prime focus. If so. The polar angle and at least using a straight edge vertical on the dish face at zentih should be parallel. With a few degrees here or there for wiggle room. In an optimum situation, they will.
Then adding the declination angle is easy.

Pipe in guys. I'm fairly positive an analog receiver is a no-go. Even if you manage to get it on frequency of a transponder. Due to the modulation schemes, the receiver would be blind.

Where you live for c band. 84W would be a good target sat for signal hunting ad tweaking in the lnbf for c band. I get some signal on it on the Eastern side of the US.

Unknown look angle. I was peeing around with a Wild Blue 1 meter oval dish with retroreflector and TRIA a few years ago.
I wanted to put a ku lnbf on it. The retroreflector was removed and I needed to find the right spot to mount the lnbf.
They say use mirrors, aluminum foil around the rim of the dish and point it at the sun with a chunk of paper where you're trying to find the best focal spot. I used a Wally World sporting goods section mirrored space blanket cut into a ring and used soapy water to stick it around the rim a few inches from the edge. Made my measurements and actually got a signal in a few minutes after mounting it on a pole. Just an FYI.

Click to expand...

I never said I was motorizing Hughesnet dishes, yes they have original mount, yes C band is prime focus, yes I know the analog receiver is useless EXCEPT maybe as a dish mover. And the hughesnet dishes are currently operational (look at my signature). And as I said originally, I can't see east of 91W at best, 97W is probably my limit eastward for C band specifically. Apologies for any confusion. Thanks for y'all's thoughts

k4otl said:

I never said I was motorizing Hughesnet dishes, yes they have original mount, yes C band is prime focus, yes I know the analog receiver is useless EXCEPT maybe as a dish mover. And the hughesnet dishes are currently operational (look at my signature). And as I said originally, I can't see east of 91W at best, 97W is probably my limit eastward for C band specifically. Apologies for any confusion. Thanks for y'all's thoughts

Click to expand...

As I am aware, for Hughesnet fiberglass reflectors manufactured by Prodelin, the offset angle can be either 22.6 or 17.3 degrees, depending on the model and the fastening points.

Completely aside, I will be working to motorize a 52' x 48' Hughesnet Prodelin reflector over the next few months. I have a pretty solid idea of how to configure and build a custom back assembly after last summer's success on my 1.2 m Channelmaster. This weekend the reflector will receive another coat of Kilz 3 premium stain blocking primer as part of its refurbishment

Everyone else's mileage may vary.

Guys start at post one, no wonder we are losing people. He clearly says a C-band dish motorized. Now let's help him. He does not have a true south sat at 82 he can retrieve on Cband closeted would be 87 west so we need to get him on that. He is a newbie and a good guy. This is like ham radio, never read the post just jump in like you know everything and make fools out of yourselves for not seeing it is a motorized cband dish

a33 said:

To add to what Primestar wrote, I would use what I call the USALS-method for a (random) reference satellite, which is partly as you describe:

1. Set motor-axis-at-zero and dish (and LNB arm) exactly in line with each other, with proper axis elevation angle and dish declination offset angle, in the general due south direction, as if you aim at your zenith/apex.

2. a. Rotate the motor axis to your visible (new) reference satellite position, using USALS GotoX command.
b. When you don't have USALS but an actuator, you can measure the relevant distances from the actuator triangle, calculate the rotation angle from due south to your chosen reference satellite (always a bit more than the difference in degrees arc), and then calculate the needed actuator length for the reference satellite. Then go to that actuator length.
c. When not using USALS or actuator length, you could calculate the rotation angle from due south to your chosen reference satellite, and maybe set and measure the needed rotation angle of the axis somehow.
d. Another, rough, method would be: Calculate the rotation angle from due south to your chosen reference satellite (always a bit more than the difference in degrees arc), then calculate the distance that the left and right side of the dish have to move forward and backward (given the width of the dish), and then rotate the motor to that position.

3. When you immediately find your reference satellite, your due south was already very good. Otherwise rotate the whole setup around the pole a bit, to find your reference satellite.
When you have finetuned your reference satellite position, your due south is also good, because of the used angle distance between the reference satellite and the due south position.

4. When still no luck, change the axis elevation a bit, and repeat step 3 on different elevation angles.

I hope you understand the procedure.

Greetz,
A33

Click to expand...

How are you going to use USALS on a cband dish with a actuator?

And I wonder why I am selling everything. My dishes track fine, but the forums just suck now adays. Not one person read the OP's post about aligning a
C-band dish, you all went to Ku dishes, giving bad info. Learn to read instead of making you look like Albert Einstien.

Comptech said:

How are you going to use USALS on a cband dish with a actuator?

Click to expand...

Let's distinguish between a few things, first:
1. USALS, though it is an abbreviation for "Universal Satellites Automatic Location System", is basically just a combination of an angle calculation (inside a receiver) and the diseqc GotoX command.
So to call it a "system", might be derived from the fact that the calculation is done at the moment of giving the motor command, maybe? I am not sure what the "system" part in the name refers to.
Also referring to it as a protocol: I don't know what part of USALS is a protocol, apart from the communication protocol of diseqc. The calculation is "common maths", so that might be called a calculation protocol, but then every calculation sequence can be called a protocol...

2. I wrote: "I would use what I call the USALS-method", meaning the method by which "you use the exact distance of a (random) reference satellite to the zenith/apex satellite position". Allowing any reference satellite, to (simultanuously) align perfectly to due south.


To answer your question:
One could build an internal calculator for a receiver, to give an immediate pulsecount command for moving an actuator, just as it is done for a rotor rotation-command in a USALS receiver. However, though there are Raspberry Pi's etc, I've not seen this built by anyone yet.
Note: just as with USALS motors, backlash (play) might make the result of the positioning commands inaccurate. So that sometimes people switch to diseqc 1.2 GotoNn commands. But the 'finding' of satellites would be easier, as you would be already very much in the neighbourhood.


What is possible, in the meantime, is to calculate actuator lengths/pulses for all the satellites you want, and store them in a (.csv) file and use that in for instance an ASC1, if I understand correctly how that works.
I've already made a spreadsheet with actuator lengths for an Austrian setup, who only needed to add the pulse-count per actuator length to make it work with his (French) "JPC-Posi" positioner.


The basis for these calculations are the "USALS-angle" calculation (I believe they also call it "hour angle"?), and then the "actuator triangle" calculation, and then the pulses calculation.


Does this answer your question?

Greetz,
A33