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harshness said:

That doesn't make sense. Having the mast plumb ensures that when you set the skew and elevation properly, you've reduced your variables from three to two (or possibly one if you're using quality aiming data).

If it isn't plumb, there's a likelihood that you'll have to dial in all three parameters to get the best results, and there's no vernier adjustment for skew.

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You have to dial in all three parameters anyway. Even though I wrote most of the manual I've forgotten some of the terminology and the third axis is tilt per DTV but skew otherwise. Once you find the 101 satellite you peak it to make sure its not a side lobe, etc. Then start the dither process although I hate using that term these days. More than likely the tilt will be fine if set with a zip code but you can go to a 99 or 103 transponder and rotate the tilt slightly to see if there is any improvement and lock it down with the highest signal level there. The tilt was really important with the 110 and especially 119 orbital slots but not so much with just the current cluster of 99-101-103 slots only 2 degrees apart.

I've done every conceivable variation of the alignment procedure and some that you have probably not heard of when doing research on what became the procedure in the manual. I've use masts that were probably 10 degrees or more off plumb and at least for me it didn't matter a bit because the procedure in the manual always nailed it. If you watched the video I posted its real and the girl doing the alignment had never touched a dish alignment and had no prior knowledge of what she would be doing and she just read through the instructions with the person in the video and nailed the alignment where the top DirecTV field engineer at that time could not nail it using other methods. BTW the girl in the video asked not to be included in any further training videos and I can't blame her.

Inclined Orbit said:

You have to dial in all three parameters anyway.

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As an installer, most certainly. As a subscriber trying to get their channels back, not so much. The assumption is that the installer set the elevation and skew correctly, and you only need to make sure the mast is still plumb and maybe do a little azimuth tweaking. If the dish has been whacked hard enough to change any of the settings from the professional installation, you're probably pissing into the wind trying to aim it.

If the mast isn't plumb, making it so will likely fix the problem until it goes out of plumb again. A full-on initial installation is rarely warranted.

harshness said:

As an installer, most certainly. As a subscriber trying to get their channels back, not so much. The assumption is that the installer set the elevation and skew correctly, and you only need to make sure the mast is still plumb and maybe do a little azimuth tweaking. If the dish has been whacked hard enough to change any of the settings from the professional installation, you're probably pissing into the wind trying to aim it.

If the mast isn't plumb, making it so will likely fix the problem until it goes out of plumb again. A full-on initial installation is rarely warranted.

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If a dish is bumped after the installer leaves then it should always go through the entire alignment procedure including AZ, EL and Tilt. I don't see any alternative because there is no way to know what needs adjusting including the mast being at a different angle than when the dish was aligned. The alignment procedure only takes a few minutes so why skimp and leave out any steps? Its very easy to see if the dish is aligned by connecting a satelltie meter and simply pulling back gently on the top, bottom, left and right corners of the dish. It should degrade slightly in each direction when pulled and if it improves at all then the alignment is probably not valid.

The alignment procedure was perfected and condensed as much as possible before releasing to installers or consumers to make the process fast (to save $$ on labor) and to provide the best possible performance and rejection of neighboring satellites 2 deg away that are not owned by DirecTV. And with the outrigger arms on the mast and various things patented on the dish mount it should stay perfectly pointed for the life of the dish unless something really bad happens beyond the consumers control. The last thing that DirecTV wanted back then is an unhappy customer and having to roll a truck back to your crib.

Inclined Orbit said:

I don't see any alternative because there is no way to know what needs adjusting including the mast being at a different angle than when the dish was aligned.

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You know better than that (unless you've forgotten your days in the van). If anything moves, there will be fresh galling of the paint, if not the metal.

Inclined Orbit said:

The alignment procedure only takes a few minutes so why skimp and leave out any steps?

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Because that typically wouldn't be required. It is also made exceptionally difficult by the almost certain invalidity of an assumption that you've made:

Inclined Orbit said:

Its very easy to see if the dish is aligned by connecting a satelltie meter and simply pulling back gently on the top, bottom, left and right corners of the dish.

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You're making the unsupportable assumption that the troubled subscriber has ready access to an $800 meter (along with any necessary firmware updates it may require) or an old-school LNB.

Absent a functioning meter, your way kinda falls apart. Those who aren't installers or technicians are left with the unique option of setting the elevation and skew using the respective scales and fiddling with the azimuth while an assistant calls out the readings.

harshness said:

You know better than that (unless you've forgotten your days in the van). If anything moves, there will be fresh galling of the paint, if not the metal.

Because that typically wouldn't be required. It is also made exceptionally difficult by the almost certain invalidity of an assumption that you've made:

You're making the unsupportable assumption that the troubled subscriber has ready access to an $800 meter (along with any necessary firmware updates it may require) or an old-school LNB.

Absent a functioning meter, your way kinda falls apart. Those who aren't installers or technicians are left with the unique option of setting the elevation and skew using the respective scales and fiddling with the azimuth while an assistant calls out the readings.

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Are you aware that you are arguing with the guy who wrote the book on how to align the Slimline dish?

raoul5788 said:

Are you aware that you are arguing with the guy who wrote the book on how to align the Slimline dish?

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I am. I've watched some of his videos.

harshness said:

I am. I've watched some of his videos.

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And yet you continue to question him. You are WAY over your head here.

raoul5788 said:

And yet you continue to question him.

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I'm not questioning him so much as reminding him that the typical subscriber doesn't have access to the same instruments that he does.

I am questioning whether an off-the-shelf spectrum analyzer (or any non-AIM 2.0 meter) can effectively be used with an SWM LNB assembly for "dithering" of all three parameters.

Falling back on a truck roll is obviously an option, but one that may take a while and will likely cost a C-note.

harshness said:

I'm not questioning him so much as reminding him that the typical subscriber doesn't have access to the same instruments that he does.

I am questioning whether an off-the-shelf spectrum analyzer (or any non-AIM 2.0 meter) can effectively be used with an SWM LNB assembly for "dithering" of all three parameters.

Falling back on a truck roll is obviously an option, but one that may take a while and will likely cost a C-note.

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CDB

raoul5788 said:

CDB

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Only if you believe you must address the problem by starting from the very beginning.

harshness said:

I'm not questioning him so much as reminding him that the typical subscriber doesn't have access to the same instruments that he does.

I am questioning whether an off-the-shelf spectrum analyzer (or any non-AIM 2.0 meter) can effectively be used with an SWM LNB assembly for "dithering" of all three parameters.

Falling back on a truck roll is obviously an option, but one that may take a while and will likely cost a C-note.

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Every subscriber has a receiver and that receiver has a signal meter which works great for aligning the dish. The hassle there is getting a receiver and monitor on the roof to have everything at your fingertips. I mentioned before using a consumer receiver for this had have done it countless times in a laboratory setting and on rooftops. For a spectrum analyzer I've used everything from $60k HP/Agilent analyzers down to a $150 handheld TinySA and they all work great as long as they can do 1dB/div. The catch is needing a directional coupler on a coax line to the LNBs or a way to send the correct voltage/tone/DiSEqC to the LNBs and keep DC voltage out of the analyzer. Targeting 4dB for the side to side/up down degradation when counting turns on the dials is a goal.

The AIM meter is a great tool for alignment but it did not come out until a few years after the engineering effort on the initial Ka/Ku and Slimline dish and all alignment research and efforts that produced the procedures and dish manual were done with spectrum analyzers and common satellite installer meters of the day. Personally I prefer a spectrum analyzer but everyone has their pet instrument. I was also invited to participate in the design review meetings for the AIM meter and my only real contribution at that time was to consider newer LiFePO4 batteries for the meter as the NiMH batteries used by the satellite meter mfrs would need frequent replacement where the LiFePO4 would run for many years. The meter went into production with NiMH and I hate replacing my AIM battery every year or two.

I would not recommend your average consumer attempt aligning a Slimline type dish but with any of the meter type options above and some instructions I find most people can do a successful and very accurate alignment with proper training. Don't forget many installers may have worked at a car wash or some other non technical job before hiring on as an installer and in the limited amount of training I've done I can see if their getting it or if I have to modify the training in a way that makes it easier to understand for non technical types. Part of my regular job was training techs and engineers on maintenance and repair procedures on satellite uplink/downlink equipment at broadcast centers and I'm all about the student proving they can perform the task after training.

Inclined Orbit said:

The catch is needing a directional coupler on a coax line to the LNBs or a way to send the correct voltage/tone/DiSEqC to the LNBs and keep DC voltage out of the analyzer.

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That's a whale of a catch.

harshness said:

That's a whale of a catch.

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A 6dB directional coupler or a splitter with DC pass on one port is a $10 or less part, not a big deal. The knowledge on how to use it is more important which is why most consumers will not be dragging a receiver and monitor to the roof for alignment. However, all you need these days is a good YouTube video to show how its done and you would be surprised on how many people would then attempt it.

harshness said:

That's a whale of a catch.

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16 years ago when DirecTV was first able to deliver HD Locals into smaller markets with the Spaceways satellites, I had a "new customer" install of a Slimline dish at one of my homes, and 5 months later paid for a truck roll for an identical satellite setup at my summer home. I move the receivers every 6 months. I have been doing Inclined Orbit's "Dithering Procedure" from time to time ever since. This has been especially important at my Adirondack Mountain home because the tech didn't have the right stuff for a pole mount for the only location with a clear line of sight to the satellite, and he mounted the dish to a poorly anchored 4x4 fence post. (The nearest hardware store for the bag of concrete was 30 minutes away).

I realigned that dish every spring for many years. Back then, the AIM meter wasn't available. I used a DIRECTV ASL-1 splitter, which was designed for that purpose, and a cheap analog "signal finder" (about $10 then). he procedure is in the ASL-1 instructions, and I later watched the video. I still use them today, and have installled multiple slimline dishes with no problem. The ASL-1 is occasionally available on eBay to this day. No spectrum analyzer required.