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nitstalker
Last reply · posted in DISH Network Support Forum

Broadcast Flag is back again, supersized.....

Dont they ever, ever, ever give up? Apparently not.... Our pal, Senator Stevens (doesnt Alaska have anything better to do?) introduced legislation yesterday to overhaul the telcom laws, and wouldnt you know it, he added in the broadcast flag... and... apparently, he doesnt only have the MPAA in his back pocket, he's got the cable companies as well. But the good thing is it doesnt sound like he has alot of support in congress, but who knows... It goes to committee for hearings.

The full text of s.2686 (135 pages) is not yet available, but here are some key points that I read from some of the news sources that have their hands on it:

- gives the FCC back the broadcast flag

- gives the FCC the audio flag

- allows the FCC to meet with without all commissioners present

- makes VOIP providers pay Universal Service Fund

- require cable modem revenue fund rural telecommunications

- requires satellite licensees offer the same services to noncontiguous states that contiguous states get

- probibits cable/satellite companies from entering into exclusive agreements for sporting events

- releases the cable tv rate regulation where E* & D* have less than 15% of customers

- allow cable to downconvert digital channels to analog

more info:
http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6330262.html?display=Breaking+News
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6330240.html?display=Breaking+News
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iKramerica
so he wants to move Alaska and Hawaii? Otherwise I'm not sure how he can force sat companies to offer all the same channels to those markets.

And he wants to double hit VOIP customers with fees.

What a jerk.
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Jim5506
Jim5506
HMMM... no exclusive agreements for sporting events. Would that nullify the NFL's exclusive contract with D* for Sunday Ticket?
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Claude Greiner
Claude Greiner
Jim5506 said:
HMMM... no exclusive agreements for sporting events. Would that nullify the NFL's exclusive contract with D* for Sunday Ticket?
Click to expand...

I kind of agree with that one, and from the sounds of it yea it would eliminate exclusive agreements.
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waltinvt
waltinvt
nitstalker said:
... and... apparently, he doesnt only have the MPAA in his back pocket, he's got the cable companies as well.
Click to expand...

I think it's the reverse that's true.
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N
nitstalker
Ok, well the text of the bill is now online:

http://stevens.senate.gov/docs/F79C86E5-BADD-BD3F-67EFBD5AC7056D3B.pdf

Its a whopper, 135 Pages long... ''Communications, Consumer's Choice, and Broadband Deployment Act of 2006''.

I skimmed through it... damn there is alot of garbage in it... If you want to go to sleep, read this thing, it is sure to put you in a coma....

Anyway, here is some stuff I thought was interesting:

First bit of it is table of contents

Next is "War on Terrorism" - oohhh ahhhh

- wants lower telephone rates for armed forces personnel calling home...
- emergency communications system

Next Section " Universal Service Reform, Interconnection"

- cool, discount USF charge for family pricing plans up to 3 phones
- they want the census bureau to include who has internet access at home
- voip is now considered a communications carrier and subject to taxes, usf, etc
- satellite broadband suppliers can tap the USF to deploy equipment to customer
s homes in unserved areas

Next Section "Streamlining Franchising Process"

- they are striking the old term "cable operator" and replacing with "Video Service Provider"
- all applications for franchise must be considered within 30 days or it is automatically approved for 15 years.
- "No State of local government may regulate direct broadcast satellite services"

Next Section "Video Content"

- a cable/satellite company which has interest in a programming vendor may not influence the vendor regarding sale, prices, terms, or conditions of programming to any unaffiliated cable/satellite company
- prohibit exclusive contracts between programmers and cable/satellite distributors
- continues to allow blackouts
- strange clause- "Nothing in this section shall apply to the signal to the signal of any broadcast affiliate of a national television network or other television signal that is retransmitted by satellite but that is not satellite broadcast programming;
- sunset clause - 10 years
- exemption: any contract that grants exclusive distribution rights to any person with respect to satellite cable programming and that was entered into on or before June 1, 1990;
- exemption: any contract that grants exclusive distribution rights to any person with respect to MVPD programming that is not satellite cable programming and that was entered into on or before July 1, 2003, except that the provisions
of subsection (c)(2)(C) shall apply for distribution to persons in areas not served by an MVPD.
- if the exempted contracts are to be renewed or extended after the bill becomes law, they are no longer exempt.

- before the FCC grants a license to a satellite carrier, it shall ensure that, to the greatest extent technically feasible, if service is available to the contiguous states, it will be available to the noncontiguous states

- broadcast flag
- broadcast flag shall permit transmission of:
short excerpts of broadcast digital television over the internet
broadcast digital television content over a home network accessible to a limited number of devices
broadcast digital television over the internet for distance learning purposes
permit government or nonprofit education to use copyrighted works in distance education courses
permit redistribution of news and public affairs programming

- regardigng any station transmitting only digital signals, cable operators shall carry the digital signal without material degradation. but may offer the digital signal and a downrezzed analog version

- you may not retransmit child porn - thats a no brainer
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Scott Greczkowski
Scott Greczkowski
Staff member HERE TO HELP YOU! Cutting Edge
Last reply · posted in The Chit Chat Club

Song Name Game Part 3!

Sometimes a thread gets so many posts in it that is can cause issues for the server so that why today we introduce The Song Name Game Part 3!

So let the game continue!

The last song was added by Bobby who posted...

One Meat Ball - Andrews Sisters

CONTINUE ON AND HAVE FUN! WELCOME HOME TO SATELLITEGUYS.US!

Here are the original rules for the game as posted by WebbyDude back in 2006. http://www.satelliteguys.us/threads/68645-Song-Name-Game

Just name a song title and the band who performed it. The next person does the same thing, but needs to list a song title or band name which includes a word from the previous entry. Pick songs from any genre.

Example:

Long Live Rock and Roll -- Rainbow

Rainbow in the Dark -- Dio

Another example:

Ride the Lightning -- Metallica

Lightning Strikes -- Ozzy Osbourne


Get it?


An additional note: we all know that song titles, sometimes, use profane words. Because this is a family friendly website it is advised that you clean up that title up a bit. This is accomplished by using something like sh!t instead of the real word. Thanks....
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long_time_Dish
My Maria - Brooks & Dunn
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long_time_Dish
long_time_Dish
Don't Lose My Number - Phil Collins
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hwkn
Rikki DON'T LOSE That NUMBER-Steely Dan
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ClarkGable
Longer - Dan Fogelberg
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Bruce
Bruce
Supporting Founder Lifetime Supporter
Last reply · posted in Internet Television (IPTV) Discussion Forum

How things have changed

I was reading this article

thehill.com

Cable TV ‘cord-cutters’ became the majority in 2022

The steady decline of cable and broadcast television, and the rise of streaming services, reached a sort of inflection point over the past year. Last summer, for the first time, streaming ser…
thehill.com thehill.com

That said this-
Last summer, for the first time, streaming services like Netflix and Amazon Prime claimed the largest share of the television viewing audience, surpassing both cable and broadcast TV. Streaming captured 34.8 percent of July viewers, according to Nielsen data, compared to 34.4 percent for cable and 21.6 percent for broadcast.

And then, sometime in the second half of 2022, cord-cutters became the majority. The share of cable and satellite television subscribers dipped to 48 percent, according to a report from Samba TV, a television technology company.

Now I do not consider those with YTTV and the likes, Cord Cutters, but they still do not have Traditional Cable/Satellite delivered Live TV, so I decided to do the math.

There are, now, 129 Million Households in the United States.

In 2015, there were 100 Million Cable/Sat Subscribers , no streaming Live TV Service.

Today, there are 66 Million Live TV subscribers, including Cable, Satellite and Streaming.

Roughly, Streaming Live TV has 14 Million subs including all of them.

So that means, Cable/Satellite now has, roughly, 51 Million Households

So in just 8 years, lost 49% of their subscribers and by the end of this year, expected sub count to be, roughly, 45 million households.

That means a total loss of 55% since 2015 at the end of 2023.

But out of 129 Million households, 45 million will mean only 35% will get Cable/Satellite Delivered Live TV by the end of 2023.

Imagine what 2024 will be like.
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Jimbo
dishstaller
dishstaller
Jimbo said:

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/u4rACh-Tt5k?feature=share
Click to expand...

Funny thing is that as the screen size and pic quality increase, the quality of the programming has DEcreased.
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MikeD-C05
dishdude
dishdude
MikeD-C05 said:
skipped the OLED Tv entirely?
Click to expand...

AI slop
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Bruce
Bruce
According to industry figures reported by Sports Media Watch, this year's World Series averaged 11.69 million viewers on FOX, down 26% from the 15.71 million average the 2025 series delivered.
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Gray Hair
Lifetime Supporter
Last reply · posted in Computers and Gadgets

Repair DX100 American Electrola Radio, AM FM SW?

I have a DX100 American Electrola Radio, AM FM SW. It is a receiver only, which quit working many years ago. Several years ago the seller had stated that capacitors would need replaced because they go bad.

In this particular xxx://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zUbXgNT8Oo they mentioned the backup battery being the problem.

Several years back when asking about having the capacitors replaced one former repairman said send it back to the factory, well there is not any. Another response several years ago from a person who repaired circuit boards for industry said they could repair it if they had a schematic, again I do not have.

This radio was built in Pittsburgh, PA out of as many American parts as they could find. Your thoughts on getting the radio to work?
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deheza
I can e-mail you pdf copies of the the manuals and schematics. The tuning not working is probably the tuning encoder. I recently found one that fits my DXC-100 from Mouser Electronic Supply. I'll be glad to include the encoder part number used to repair my radio. My radio doesn't have the battery so may be a bit different than mine.
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Gray Hair
deheza said:
I can e-mail you pdf copies of the the manuals and schematics. The tuning not working is probably the tuning encoder. I recently found one that fits my DXC-100 from Mouser Electronic Supply. I'll be glad to include the encoder part number used to repair my radio. My radio doesn't have the battery so may be a bit different than mine.
Click to expand...

Deheza,

Thanks for your information and offer. My Radio is actually a DXC 100 as well, was a typo in the title. Am puzzled by yours not having the battery, since they only made two runs. While the schematics would be great, I believe by the amount of views it would be better to post all the information here.

I see where numerous people have posted pdf files, just not sure how they do it.

Sorry about the long response time, just was not sure how to handle it.

Thanks,

Respectively,

Gray Hair
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. Raine
. Raine
If you change that diode, make sure you know what type it is, a regular rectifier, zener, whatever, don't just throw any old diode in. Try to read the number on it and look it up. Do you have a multimeter? A lot of the things in there can be easily checked with a meter.

Trying to run it off a clean 12 V source like a battery would be a good idea, like someone else suggested. In a couple of your pictures there's a 9v regulator [7809CT], and I think I saw a 5 V regulator [7805]. The 5v probably supplies the display and the 9v the radio circuitry. If you have a meter that would be a first place to check, check the three pins on each for a 12v input, a gnd, a 5v output on the 5v and a 9v output on the 9v. Bad solder connections is another good possibility.

That radio looks to be in nice shape inside. It doesn't look like anyone's worked it over, looks nice.

The back-up battery is probably just for a memory function, when you replace it make sure you use the same type, cadmium, lithium-ion, whatever it is, it should say on it what type it is and the voltage, or have a part# that can be looked up.
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OZ65
I have just started working on one of these and could really use the schematics and a copy of the manual - can anybody send them to me or attach a link? I did construct a manual from "azenithnut" , but his zip file is missing pages 16,17. My radio display only briefly lights up when powered on. the tuner and audio section appears to work fine. I have already replaced the back-up battery. I have the second generation radio. TIA
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Revenerd
Revenerd
Another necropost here. I picked one of these up today. Does anyone out there have this manual (I'd take schematics too). I too found azenithnut's post with the missing pages 16 and 17.
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(((Garyd)))
(((Garyd)))
OZ65 said:
I have just started working on one of these and could really use the schematics and a copy of the manual - can anybody send them to me or attach a link? I did construct a manual from "azenithnut" , but his zip file is missing pages 16,17. My radio display only briefly lights up when powered on. the tuner and audio section appears to work fine. I have already replaced the back-up battery. I have the second generation radio. TIA
Click to expand...
Can you send the serial-number label and photos of the tuner board, that should help distinguish its circuit revision; collector records say serials marked OB were the second production run. Use a heat gun or hair dryer to find bad caps if it works for A FEW SECONDS ITS A BAD CAP, THAN ONLY HEAT HALF OF THE RADIO
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TWiT Tech Podcast Network
· posted in TWiT Tech Podcast Network

This Week in Tech 1109

Time for another AWESOME video from the TWIT Network!


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okJLytKRbDY


Direct YouTube Link - This Week in Tech 1109
TWIT's Website
TWIT Live Feed
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TWiT Tech Podcast Network
· posted in TWiT Tech Podcast Network

The Agentic Web & When AI Agents Escape Their Sandbox

Time for another AWESOME video from the TWIT Network!


View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/rwJNDSWjwDY


Direct YouTube Link - The Agentic Web & When AI Agents Escape Their Sandbox
TWIT's Website
TWIT Live Feed
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G
garyreno
Last reply · posted in DISH Network Support Forum

Updated to H715 on a Hopper 3 from H713

After a strange reboot last night in the middle of viewing, this morning several more reboots and about a half an hour download.
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Almighty1
Almighty1
Just did the update check manually about an hour ago with Hopper 3 on H713 and Hopper Plus on P15403.
Noticed something new when I clicked on the Update Software, it presented a pop-up as follows:
"Update software 1573
Update later Update now Cancel" with those three buttons which did not exist before.

After updating the H715 - I guess there must be major bugs as both H709 and H714 were skipped.

So here are the issue(s):

Issue #1
It did fix the problem with H713 which was:
"One of the problems I am seeing is that the Available Joey Software section no longer is showing the Android TV versions even after a manual software reset twice and the nightly reboot. Until it does, nether Technician Android TV download and Hopper Plus is able to check, download and update the Android TV software."

This was a major problem with H703.

H710 removed that dependency so H711 and H712 were working without that dependency but H713 brought it back which is fixed in H715 as no P versions or Android TV versions are shown in the Available Joey Software on the main Diagnostics screen.
However, with that said, the TECHNICIAN SETTINGS, Download ATV (Android TV) Files is not working correctly as the Download ATV Files shows:
"Download ATV Files 3000
Download in progress. This operation will be
complete when the files are downloaded

Joey 4 : P554- Failed
Joey 4 : P55403- Failed
Wireless Joey 4 : P654- Failed
Wireless Joey 4 : P65403- Complete
HopperPlus : P154- Complete
HopperPlus : P15403- Failed

OK"
From what I can tell, each of them goes through the Downloading followed by the Processing stages first before it goes into the Failed or Complete stage. It seemed to be going in a loop earlier as it will start downloading from the first item being the Joey 4 each time before it eventually stopped. This is the first time ever since 2023 that I had ever seen it Failed.

With that said, the dependency appears to still be required for the Hopper Plus to check, download and update the Android TV software as it says Failed, No Target when going to "Device Preferences", About, "Software Update"

Issue #2
Still cannot cast to Hopper 3 with Hopper Plus(Software P15317) with the Hopper Plus "Google Chromecast Built-In" feature" as it shows up as a casting device when the Hopper Plus is online and disappears when the Hopper 3 and Hopper Plus does it's nightly reboots but times out when one tries to cast to it and always shows up as Not available in the Google Home app on Android phone. No one else anywhere on the internet had confirmed whether it is working for them or not. Per brittanygarden in DM on October 16, 2026:
"We've been working with Google on this. We have a fix on the Google side projected for Q4. I know we're in Q4 now, but I will try to get a narrowed down timeline for you."

brittanygarden and Rick Durham

jsmit86 and naptime - If you are able to use H715, does the issue mentioned below still exist?
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jsmit86
jsmit86
Almighty1 said:
Just did the update check manually about an hour ago with Hopper 3 on H713 and Hopper Plus on P15403.
Noticed something new when I clicked on the Update Software, it presented a pop-up as follows:
"Update software 1573
Update later Update now Cancel" with those three buttons which did not exist before.

After updating the H715 - I guess there must be major bugs as both H709 and H714 were skipped.

So here are the issue(s):

Issue #1
It did fix the problem with H713 which was:
"One of the problems I am seeing is that the Available Joey Software section no longer is showing the Android TV versions even after a manual software reset twice and the nightly reboot. Until it does, nether Technician Android TV download and Hopper Plus is able to check, download and update the Android TV software."

This was a major problem with H703.

H710 removed that dependency so H711 and H712 were working without that dependency but H713 brought it back which is fixed in H715 as no P versions or Android TV versions are shown in the Available Joey Software on the main Diagnostics screen.
However, with that said, the TECHNICIAN SETTINGS, Download ATV (Android TV) Files is not working correctly as the Download ATV Files shows:
"Download ATV Files 3000
Download in progress. This operation will be
complete when the files are downloaded

Joey 4 : P554- Failed
Joey 4 : P55403- Failed
Wireless Joey 4 : P654- Failed
Wireless Joey 4 : P65403- Complete
HopperPlus : P154- Complete
HopperPlus : P15403- Failed

OK"
From what I can tell, each of them goes through the Downloading followed by the Processing stages first before it goes into the Failed or Complete stage. It seemed to be going in a loop earlier as it will start downloading from the first item being the Joey 4 each time before it eventually stopped. This is the first time ever since 2023 that I had ever seen it Failed.

With that said, the dependency appears to still be required for the Hopper Plus to check, download and update the Android TV software as it says Failed, No Target when going to "Device Preferences", About, "Software Update"

Issue #2
Still cannot cast to Hopper 3 with Hopper Plus(Software P15317) with the Hopper Plus "Google Chromecast Built-In" feature" as it shows up as a casting device when the Hopper Plus is online and disappears when the Hopper 3 and Hopper Plus does it's nightly reboots but times out when one tries to cast to it and always shows up as Not available in the Google Home app on Android phone. No one else anywhere on the internet had confirmed whether it is working for them or not. Per brittanygarden in DM on October 16, 2026:
"We've been working with Google on this. We have a fix on the Google side projected for Q4. I know we're in Q4 now, but I will try to get a narrowed down timeline for you."

brittanygarden and Rick Durham

jsmit86 and naptime - If you are able to use H715, does the issue mentioned below still exist?
Click to expand...
I have not been updated to 715 yet. I am on a QE "Beta" or Test version that did fix the audio issue. The last communication I had with the team mentioned that the full release of that fix was likely in December.
It would be nice to know if 715 does solve that issue of no audio when Dolby is ON, during 4K HDR events.
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Almighty1
Almighty1
jsmit86 said:
I have not been updated to 715 yet. I am on a QE "Beta" or Test version that did fix the audio issue. The last communication I had with the team mentioned that the full release of that fix was likely in December.
It would be nice to know if 715 does solve that issue of no audio when Dolby is ON, during 4K HDR events.
Click to expand...
Interesting, is QE "Beta" or Test version different than the H708 you had mentioned that they rolled you back to or is that a newer version after that?
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Ramy
Ramy
Supporting Founder
Last reply · posted in The Sports Section

2026-27 NCAA College Football

Really excited for this season with Kentucky having a new coach and some really exciting recruits. Probably won't last long, but here's hoping this season is great.
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Ronnie-
Ronnie-
The game time was just a product of so many top 25 matchups. I think they said it was the most in one day since the 1930s.

Not everyone can play at night and get a tv slot.

Of course Lane is gonna complain. It's what he does.


Roll tide.
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Jimbo
Jimbo
Ronnie- said:
The game time was just a product of so many top 25 matchups. I think they said it was the most in one day since the 1930s.

Not everyone can play at night and get a tv slot.

Of course Lane is gonna complain. It's what he does.


Roll tide.
Click to expand...
With Streaming, they should all be able to be on at night, no issue with TV slots :(

(Everybody can be on Peacock ... :argue:mad:) :tombstone
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Ronnie-
Ronnie-
Jimbo said:
With Streaming, they should all be able to be on at night, no issue with TV slots :(

(Everybody can be on Peacock ... :argue:mad:) :tombstone
Click to expand...
Could. Yes.

But you know as well as I that they are not going A: put all of their prime matchups on at the same time. And B: take their main games off of the main channels.


You had bama vs lsu, and Georgia vs Ole Miss to choose from.

Considering Georgia had beaten Bama and Ole Miss had beaten LSU, I can see that why they chose that game for the night matchup (without the benefit of hindsight as to how the game's Saturday would play out).

You also had Tennessee vs Kentucky to fit in the mix.


Someone had to be at 2:30. Which imo is honestly my preferred slot for bama games no matter who they are playing or where.


None of them was going to be a streaming only game, and none where going on an "alternate" channel.
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Jimbo
Jimbo
Ronnie- said:
Could. Yes.

But you know as well as I that they are not going A: put all of their prime matchups on at the same time. And B: take their main games off of the main channels.


You had bama vs lsu, and Georgia vs Ole Miss to choose from.

Considering Georgia had beaten Bama and Ole Miss had beaten LSU, I can see that why they chose that game for the night matchup (without the benefit of hindsight as to how the game's Saturday would play out).

You also had Tennessee vs Kentucky to fit in the mix.


Someone had to be at 2:30. Which imo is honestly my preferred slot for bama games no matter who they are playing or where.


None of them was going to be a streaming only game, and none where going on an "alternate" channel.
Click to expand...
Of course ... but they Could.

Did you realize how early that Utah vs BYU game was Saturday ... I believe it was 12 Noon EST, they are in Mountain time zone, which means they started thier game a 10 AM.
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Ronnie-
Ronnie-
Jimbo said:
Of course ... but they Could.
Click to expand...
Yes. I even said so. But for reasons I gave, they won't. Wouldn't make sense for them too and they would lose money. A lot of these people that watch one of these games, watch more than one.

They want those eyeballs on as many games as possible. It just makes financial sense.

Jimbo said:
Did you realize how early that Utah vs BYU game was Saturday ... I believe it was 12 Noon EST, they are in Mountain time zone, which means they started thier game a 10 AM.
Click to expand...
It was early. Sure.
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dfergie
dfergie
Staff member HERE TO HELP YOU!
Last reply · posted in What's Cooking?

What's For Lunch?

We have a Breakfast and Dinner thread so... :)
Continuing from the Breakfast thread, found Cornbread mix so ...
Yellow Cornbread Mix
2 Hatch Green Chiles -diced
1 Egg
2/3 cup of milk
add to greased pan
Bake for 400f 20-25 minutes(From instructions)
now to put together and try... this to go with pinto beans...
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TRG
TRG
Tuna salad sandwich on toasted honey whole wheat bread with a handful of kettle chips. Water.
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TRG
Breakfast for lunch. Crispy corned beef hash, home fries, two over easy eggs and sourdough toast.

1653.webp
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TRG
TRG
Grabbed a burrito on the run. Beef, pinto beans, green chile and cheese. Stewart's cream soda.

burr.webp
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dfergie
dfergie
Beef, bean green chile, cheese homemade burritos here... Water
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dfergie
Juicy Lucy jalapeño burger… Tea
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Ham Radio 2.0
· posted in Ham Radio 2.0

XTOC: Your Command Center for Off-Grid Communications | LIVE

Time for another AWESOME video from Ham Radio 2.0!


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSYzGH16G7s


Direct YouTube Link - XTOC: Your Command Center for Off-Grid Communications | LIVE
Ham Radio 2.0 Website
Ham Radio 2.0 on Facebook
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dishstaller
dishstaller
Pub Member / Supporter Lifetime Supporter
Last reply · posted in The Chit Chat Club

Color blind man sees full colors for first time at age 66

Videos like this can make you appreciate the things we take for granted.


View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/a2cgQidHQJI
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T
telstar_1
Often people who have organic vision or hearing activated as adults after never having had it cannot practically utilize it because their brains never developed the massive neural network needed to make sense of any of it.

Well, he sees in color, just differently. Can't he just enjoy that? My granny had anachromatic color blindness, meaning pretty much like a b&w tv
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jayn_j
jayn_j
My son is rg colorblind, but we found there are degrees. If something is vivid red or green, he can see a hint of color. I bought him a pair of the glasses when they first came out. He said they did improve things slightly, but not to the extent they are being touted. I think they are sitting in a drawer somewhere.
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dishstaller
dishstaller
jayn_j said:
My son is rg colorblind, but we found there are degrees. If something is vivid red or green, he can see a hint of color. I bought him a pair of the glasses when they first came out. He said they did improve things slightly, but not to the extent they are being touted. I think they are sitting in a drawer somewhere.
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Are the glasses one size fits all or do they make different models for different degrees of colorblindness.
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navychop
navychop
Dr Pol did not like or use his
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T
telstar_1
dishstaller said:
Are the glasses one size fits all or do they make different models for different degrees of colorblindness.
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It looked like there were at least three iterations to try to match up to the given individual deficit, and a test to take to determine which would best help. But at best they seem a marginal measure and not practical.
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