Aiming a motorized dish?

[zamar23]

I just installed a 33" Dish on a perfectly plumb factory support with a clear sky view, and am trying to aim it. I'm in Toronto, so using AMC 5 at 79W, TP 12177 H as a true south sat for aiming. I set Motor Elevation and Dish Bracket Angles as per motor Manual (so the calculated Dish Elevation is close to Dishpointer.com suggestion), and the Dish Azimuth as per Dishpointer.com, based on my Lat. and Long, and the Sat. I entered LNB as Single 10750, selected the AMC 5 Sat and TP in the Receiver and connected RG6 from Receiver directly to LNB's Linear connector for aiming, which shown S=62, Q=0. No dish re-aiming can improve Q, despite following the Sadoun's and other Guides. I then connected RG6 to LNB via motor and tried to use USALS. The USALS function and motor work perfect, but again no re-aiming can up Q above 0, while S changes within 50 to 70. I tryed to aim to a clear FTA channel of another close to south strong 82W Sat, setting LNB to Circular and connecting to C connector on Invacom - still Q=0. The LNB appears to work, as when I disconnect RG6 from it, S goes to 0, and even replacing the LNB doesn't change Q. I also tried to re-flash the receiver with latest Factory, Cleaning and Fixed flashes, following the flashing guides. It appears to work with every SV bin, but still no Q.

- What else can I do to aim the Dish?
- How can I measure the Dish's actual elevation angle as opposed to angle shown on its scale?
- How can I check, if the Receiver is working properly, i.e. can measure Q and tune to channels?
- How can I check, if the selected for aiming TP is active, when aiming the dish?

My setup:

DigiMonster 33" Dish
SonicView 360 Elite
Moteck SG-2100 Motor
Invacom QPH-031 LNB

 

[TRG]

A lot of times the elevation scale on the dish is off. Try going a few degrees plus or minus your true south setting. You can buy an inexpensive inclinometer like this one Johnson Level & Tool 700 Contractor Magnetic Angle Locator and add the offset for your dish. Most dishes are around 22 degrees. Other than that it looks like you are doing everything right. Just remember to move in small increments, go slow and be patient.

 

[Lak7]

You must have an Active / Live / Hot transponder selected in the Setup menu.
The Quality Meter is for individuals TPs, not the actual Satellite.
Look for "12177" in the Transponder list.

Just to second what TRG said, slow moves.

 

[B.J.]

I just installed a 33" Dish on a perfectly plumb factory support with a clear sky view, and am trying to aim it. I'm in Toronto, so using AMC 5 at 79W, TP 12177 H as a true south sat for aiming. I set Motor Elevation and Dish Bracket Angles as per motor Manual (so the calculated Dish Elevation is close to Dishpointer.com suggestion), and the Dish Azimuth as per Dishpointer.com, based on my Lat. and Long, and the Sat. I entered LNB as Single 10750, selected the AMC 5 Sat and TP in the Receiver and connected RG6 from Receiver directly to LNB's Linear connector for aiming, which shown S=62, Q=0. No dish re-aiming can improve Q, despite following the Sadoun's and other Guides. I then connected RG6 to LNB via motor and tried to use USALS. The USALS function and motor work perfect, but again no re-aiming can up Q beyond 0, while S changes within 50 to 70. I tryed to aim to a clear FTA channel of another close to south strong 82W Sat, setting LNB to Circular and connecting to C connector on Invacom - still Q=0. The LNB appears to work, as when I disconnect RG6 from it, S goes to 0, and even replacing the LNB doesn't change Q. I also tried to re-flash the receiver with latest Factory Cleaning and Fix flashes, following the flashing guides. It appears to work with every SV bin, but still no Q.

- What else can I do to aim the Dish?
- How can I measure the Dish's actual elevation angle as opposed to angle shown on its scale?
- How can I check, if the Receiver is working properly, i.e. can measure Q and tune to channels?
- How can I check, if the selected for aiming TP is active, when aiming the dish?

My setup:

DigiMonster 33" Dish
SonicView 360 Elite
Moteck SG-2100 Motor
Invacom QPH-031 LNB

You say you set your angles correctly, but you don't say what angles you used.
First, for the motor, make sure that if you used latitude, that you set that on the latitude scale, and if you used elevation, that you use the elevation scale, although you're close enough to 45, that it may not make a big difference. I would set the motor to about 44.4 on the latitude scale (assuming your actual latitude is 43.7). I would use a declination of 6.0 (even though the charts will say 6.7). Subtract this from 30 to get a dish elevation of 24. Just use that as a starting point. Don't touch the motor elevation again, but search for the sat using dish elevation. Don't try other sats until you find AMC5. When you do, only refine the rotation of the whole mount on the pole when on your extreme sat.

Re how to measure the actual dish elevation, with an offset dish, there is simply no good way to do this, unless you believe the manufacturer's specs for offset angle. There just isn't any surface on the dishes that actually relate to the aim of the dish.

Re making sure receiver works, what you did is simplest, ie trying to lock a DBS sat, as you can be way off on the aim with those. I've been able to find and keep those in lock while hand holding dishes. Make sure, however that your receiver is set to 11250 for the DBS circular sats, and to 10750 for AMC5, and make sure it isn't set up as universal. It should be set to standard or single, or something like that.

The 12177H transponder is 24/7 as far as I've seen. Just make sure you have the proper polarity (H), and SR (20500) .

 

[zamar23]

Thanks a lot! The Motor Scale says "Latitude", while its Manual gives tables for "Elevation"=46 - I can't figure out, why they print it like that. But in my location Lat. about 44 deg. both values are close. Also, the setup is on a balcony. When aiming with a compass, it's pointer orientation varies a lot depending on location within the balcony. I think, the concrete steel framework, supporting the balcony, has some magnetic effect, and the Dish Assembly also affects the compass pointer direction. Basically, I can't find accurately, where true south is, just approximately within +- 15 deg. What Compass Model to use in such situation to find a true south? As to physically measuring ACTUAL dish elevation angle, when I close the Dish's front side with a flat carton, its surface vertical angle is about twice as smaller (like 20 deg.) than required Dish elevation angle of 39.5 deg. Should it be like that, or the dish scale is incorrect?

 

[Lak7]

Can you list your specific location?

 

[AcWxRadar]

I just installed a 33" Dish on a perfectly plumb factory support with a clear sky view, and am trying to aim it. I'm in Toronto, so using AMC 5 at 79W, TP 12177 H as a true south sat for aiming. I set Motor Elevation and Dish Bracket Angles as per motor Manual (so the calculated Dish Elevation is close to Dishpointer.com suggestion), and the Dish Azimuth as per Dishpointer.com, based on my Lat. and Long, and the Sat. I entered LNB as Single 10750, selected the AMC 5 Sat and TP in the Receiver and connected RG6 from Receiver directly to LNB's Linear connector for aiming, which shown S=62, Q=0. No dish re-aiming can improve Q, despite following the Sadoun's and other Guides. I then connected RG6 to LNB via motor and tried to use USALS. The USALS function and motor work perfect, but again no re-aiming can up Q beyond 0, while S changes within 50 to 70. I tryed to aim to a clear FTA channel of another close to south strong 82W Sat, setting LNB to Circular and connecting to C connector on Invacom - still Q=0. The LNB appears to work, as when I disconnect RG6 from it, S goes to 0, and even replacing the LNB doesn't change Q. I also tried to re-flash the receiver with latest Factory Cleaning and Fix flashes, following the flashing guides. It appears to work with every SV bin, but still no Q.

- What else can I do to aim the Dish?
- How can I measure the Dish's actual elevation angle as opposed to angle shown on its scale?
- How can I check, if the Receiver is working properly, i.e. can measure Q and tune to channels?
- How can I check, if the selected for aiming TP is active, when aiming the dish?

My setup:

DigiMonster 33" Dish
SonicView 360 Elite
Moteck SG-2100 Motor
Invacom QPH-031 LNB

Zamar23,

I have been researching Satbeams.com and I find that this site may often over-estimate the minimum dish size required. Based upon my personal results, I believe they are stating a much larger dish than required, so take what I am about to say with a grain of salt as I cannot prove anything definite in this regard.

If I go to that website (Satbeams.com) and look up the footprint or EIRP map for 79W, I see that Toronto falls in the 47dBW contour area. According to their site, at this power level you should have a 90cm or 35.4 inch dish.

If they are accurate (and I don't really think they are - I think they are adding some budget factor into the dish size here). However, you might just keep this in mind just in case.

One thing that I would recommend is using TP 11.900 H SR 2.170 MS/s on 79.0W and looking for the signal from the channel KTEL.

I find this TP and channel to be very strong. I am showing 97% quality reading on a Coolsat 5000 with a 76cm dish.

I am a little confused with Satbeam.com's EIRP map as they have my area depicted as a lower dBW zone than you, but they still recommend a 90 cm dish. And I know that I am getting some channels in. Maybe if I had a 90cm or larger dish, I would have more channels.

I am near Omaha, Nebraska USA, so if you look up Satbeams.com you can see what the contour map they present for my area and for your area shows and compare your dish with mine.

I only get 10 FTA channels total on this bird from my location. NYN 1 through NYN 9 and KTEL.

The NYN channels come in at 88% quality.

I don't know if this information is helpful to you or not, but I thought I would present it so that you would at least have a comparison.

RADAR

 

[AcWxRadar]

Thanks a lot! The Motor Scale says "Latitude", while its Manual gives tables for "Elevation"=46 - I can't figure out, why they print it like that. But in my location Lat. about 44 deg. both values are close. Also, the setup is on a balcony. When aiming with a compass, it's pointer orientation varies a lot depending on location within the balcony. I think, the concrete steel framework, supporting the balcony, has some magnetic effect, and the Dish Assembly also affects the compass pointer direction. Basically, I can't find accurately, where true south is, just approximately within +- 15 deg. What Compass Model to use in such situation to find a true south? As to physically measuring ACTUAL dish elevation angle, when I close the Dish's front side with a flat cardbox peace, that peace surface angle is about twice as smaller (like 20 deg.) than required Dish elevation angle of 39.5 deg. Should it be like that, or the dish scale is incorrect?

Zamar23,

The motor should always be set using the LATITUDE scale on the actual motor bracket. This setting should match your site position's latitude coordinate. Many motors usually have two scales, one which reads latitude and one that reads elevation. These two angles add up to 90 degrees, so they are sort of complimentary of one another.

90 - ELEVATION = LATITUDE and ELEVATION + LATITUDE = 90.

So you can kinda deduce the difference between the two from there.

If you know your site's latitude, set the motor's latitude scale to that. If your motor only has a scale marked elevation, subtract your site latitude from 90 and that will be your elevation angle, so set the elevation of the motor to that angle instead (it will be the same angle in the end result. You will just be using the alternate scale on the motor.

RADAR

 

[zamar23]

Based on forums, in Toronto (mine is Lat. 43.4, Long. 79.6) people often use 79W as a true south sat, so I assume, 33" size dish is OK for that. How about measuring true dish elevation angle?

 

[Lak7]

Since you can not use a compass, go to Dishpointer.com, enter your exact address, Select your motor from the bottom of the Sat List, click GO, and the line will a good idea where to point.

 

[AcWxRadar]

Based on forums, in Toronto (mine is Lat. 43.4, Long. 79.6) people often use 79W as a true south sat, so I assume, 33" size dish is OK for that. How about measuring true dish elevation angle?

Zamar23,

I would take your dish off of the motor and mount it on a plumb post/mast. Then use an inclinometer ( a fairly good one with a magnetic base) and attach it to the dish at the most flattest part of the dish (like the LNBF support arm at the rear of the dish) and confirm that the angles agree (the scale vs the inclinometer).

If you find the dish elevation scale to be in error, remark it yourself to provide the accurate scale.

RADAR

 

[zamar23]

Thanks. But the angle of flat section of LNB support arm behind the dish deviates a lot from the angle of a flat carton resting on the dish's front side. In fact, its almost parallel lower half of the dish. So I would formulate a more accurate question: an angle between what pair of virtual surfaces is (or supposed to be accurately) reflected by the Dish scale? I.e., when a dish is designed, between what virtual surfaces they want to show angle on its scale? Or, it depends on each particular dish model offset values?

 

[B.J.]

Zamar23,

I would take your dish off of the motor and mount it on a plumb post/mast. Then use an inclinometer ( a fairly good one with a magnetic base) and attach it to the dish at the most flattest part of the dish (like the LNBF support arm at the rear of the dish) and confirm that the angles agree (the scale vs the inclinometer).

If you find the dish elevation scale to be in error, remark it yourself to provide the accurate scale.

RADAR

With an offset dish, an inclinometer there will never correspond to the elevattion scale on the mount. It will be close to the elevation minus the offset angle (assuming the inclinometer is set to give zero when that surface is vertical). However on the dishes I tried it on, while it was close, it wasn't exact, suggesting that the mounting of the LNBF arm at the back of the dish is a bit arbitrary.
As theoretically, the bottom edge of the dish should be pretty close to the center of the parabola (ellipse), a line between that and the lnbf should be pretty close to the direction of aim too, and on my Fortec dish, that's pretty close to the direction that the lnbf arm aims from dish to lnbf, however that didn't prove to be a useful surface either.
I tried every flat surface on my Fortec 90 cm, and while the back of the dish on the lnbf arm was closest, nothing really related perfectly to the aim of the dish (or 90 minus the aim in this case). With a prime focus dish, however, an inclinometer works really well, as it's pretty clear what direction the dish is aiming, and it's usually really easy to find an appropriate surface.

 

[zamar23]

In my DigiMonster 33" dish a virtual line between LNB and dish parabola centers appears to be on about 10 deg. bigger vertical angle than required Dish elevation angle. I'm not sure, if its relevant.

For those having problem to find true south with a compass, I repeat the advice from another forum: "use Sun to find the true south. We are so consumed by technology that forget about the basics, which are often much cheaper and more accurate.

If your compass readings don't appear to be consistent or accurate, use one of the methods from site Which way is South? to find true south. For true south direction use a Sun shadow line going from a strictly vertical rod through your Dish pole at Solar Noon Time. Make sure to calculate exact Solar Noon time for your date and location, which doesn't usually match your clock noon time, to place the rod and mark the shadow direction correctly."

Also, is there any website, that would give a complete list of Satellites, reachable from a particular precise location (i.e. for a given lat& long), including those visible on the horizon but beam spotting some transponders to other areas?

 

[Lak7]

Also, is there any website, that would give a complete list of Satellites, reachable from a particular precise location (i.e. for a given lat& long), including those visible on the horizon but beam spotting some transponders to other areas?

Lyngsat.com and Dishpointer.com.

 

[bassist]

If you have a clear view of the ground from your balcony, take your compass to the ground away from all the rebar. Point the compass S, accounting for the magnetic "declination" and plant a pole where you're standing. Carefully walk 10-20 paces due south and place another pole. When you go back to your balcony you'll be able to aim the arm of your dish pretty close to south.

 

[mikelib]

I had a lot of trouble setting up my motorized system and I went to this web site
http://www.satsig.net/pointing/how-to-make-inclinometer.htm and made the paper inclinometer and set the elevation according to the instructions, Bingo I hit my most south satellite 74 west. I have my dish and motor mounted on a tripod and now use the one station that is on that satellite to align my tripod. According to the web site you set the inclinometer from the back of dish right on the straight part of the bracket. I have since purchased an inclinometer from homedepot.

I am taking that your site latitude is 44 and your dish should be adjusted to 23.3 after subtracting the declination angle or as close to it as possible. I also would only hook up the linear side of the LNB until you lock in your south most satellite. IF you use dishpointer in the satellite mode and zoom all the way in you should be able to pick out land marks to get to the right azimuth. I use the peak of the roof of the last house on my block.

Oh! One other point make small adjustments and count to three before you make another adjustment. I guarantee that once you lock the first sat in it gets easy good luck.
mikelib

 

[zamar23]

Thanks to mikelib, I found this webpage illustrating measurement of an Offset Dish Elevation Angle. You need to find the Offset Angle for your Dish from its manufacturer's Spec, then add it to a measured elevation angle to get its actual Elevation Angle. Here is the picture:

 

[AcWxRadar]

With an offset dish, an inclinometer there will never correspond to the elevattion scale on the mount. It will be close to the elevation minus the offset angle (assuming the inclinometer is set to give zero when that surface is vertical). However on the dishes I tried it on, while it was close, it wasn't exact, suggesting that the mounting of the LNBF arm at the back of the dish is a bit arbitrary.
As theoretically, the bottom edge of the dish should be pretty close to the center of the parabola (ellipse), a line between that and the lnbf should be pretty close to the direction of aim too, and on my Fortec dish, that's pretty close to the direction that the lnbf arm aims from dish to lnbf, however that didn't prove to be a useful surface either.
I tried every flat surface on my Fortec 90 cm, and while the back of the dish on the lnbf arm was closest, nothing really related perfectly to the aim of the dish (or 90 minus the aim in this case). With a prime focus dish, however, an inclinometer works really well, as it's pretty clear what direction the dish is aiming, and it's usually really easy to find an appropriate surface.

I had a lot of trouble setting up my motorized system and I went to this web site
http://www.satsig.net/pointing/how-to-make-inclinometer.htm and made the paper inclinometer and set the elevation according to the instructions, Bingo I hit my most south satellite 74 west. I have my dish and motor mounted on a tripod and now use the one station that is on that satellite to align my tripod. According to the web site you set the inclinometer from the back of dish right on the straight part of the bracket. I have since purchased an inclinometer from homedepot.

I am taking that your site latitude is 44 and your dish should be adjusted to 23.3 after subtracting the declination angle or as close to it as possible. I also would only hook up the linear side of the LNB until you lock in your south most satellite. IF you use dishpointer in the satellite mode and zoom all the way in you should be able to pick out land marks to get to the right azimuth. I use the peak of the roof of the last house on my block.

Oh! One other point make small adjustments and count to three before you make another adjustment. I guarantee that once you lock the first sat in it gets easy good luck.
mikelib

Thanks to mikelib, I found this webpage illustrating measurement of an Offset Dish Elevation Angle. You need to find the Offset Angle for your Dish from its manufacturer's Spec, then add it to a measured elevation angle to get its actual Elevation Angle. Here is the picture:

B.J.

This is what I was trying to infer. I understand that a person is going to be required to do some calculations to get the appropriate angle. Which means researching the dish the owner has at hand.

I have an easy task with my Winegard DS-2076 dish as I can place my inclinometer on my LNBF support arm (the portion which extends out between the bottom of the dish towards the LNBF mount) and the angle it reads is my site's latitude angle. So, as long as my motor is driven to the true south satellite, I can go by this angle to confirm that at least I am accurate at the center position (due south ort zero degrees on the motor).

RADAR

 

[Larobpra]

I finally got my dish motorized this morning. Here is what I did.

1. Aimed dish without motor to my true south sat - 74°W.

2. Measured the angle of the dish mount to determine where to set my homemade motor mount.

3. Mounted motor and dish on pole and found true south sat using known stored channel.

4. Stored position using DiSeqc instead of USALS as I have had problems trying USALS in prior attempts to set up motor. It tends to run too far with it.

5. Drove dish using button on motor to next nearest sat - 72°W, peaked signal and stored.

6. Then I worked my way west using the button on the motor, stopping at my known stored sats, peaking the signal and storing each one as I went.

I am following the arc from 72° to 129° now. It really didn't take too long today, but I have spent a lot time studying here and trying different times to make it work. I had just about given up on the SG2100 motor but now am just like a kid with a new toy!