Any suggestions for a 2 tuner non-HD DVR unit?

Wow, You sure said a lot. I love the interactive cable guide and I use the on demand feature religiously. As I just got the SA 8300 unit I will evaluate it and get back to you in a couple weeks. However, I just brought back an SA8000 DVR unit that worked fine. If what you say is indeed factual I'm glad you are honest enough to tell me all the details. I would much rather have a unit that has on demand and the interactive guide than one that doesn't.

I understand that some people are very brand conscious and loyal to their products. Opinions vary. I personally am a Sony TV person and I swear by their TVs. I have a 1989 27 inch XBR TV that's in my bedroom and it still works fine. Before I will degrade any piece of electronic equipment I will give it a fair valuation. Thank you for your input in this discussion.

One question. Why are some people on this forum so anti-Sony? Is it because of the bluegray player or a Sony looked at as a bully in the industry?

I've always like Sony as well, however I think they get a bad rap because they do inflate their prices a bit because you're buying the Sony "brand". I've had many Sony tv's and finally bought a Samsung LCD last time around. Almost exactly the same as the comprable Sony XBR LCD (same exact panel in fact) but about $400 cheaper.. couldn't argue with that.

You will have an interactive program guide with Tivo (that's what Tivo charges monthly for). It's just that technology that uses two-way communication (On Demand and PPV) will not work with it, nor will the upcoming SDV technology.
 
A few facts to correct here:

1. Tivo does have an interactive program guide, and correct that is what the montly fee is for (lifetime fees are available and you can transfer them, tricky but worth it).

2. In some areas having Tivo is cheaper; agreed there is an upfront cost but if you can get a lifetime subscription on an S3 you are ahead of the game. For me I transferred a lifetime subscription, it cost $200 to transfer. So looking at 3 years the Tivo is $5.55 a month for the service and $7.50 for the cable card. or $13.05 a month. The DVR unit here in my area is $13.94 a month. Total cost for 3 years of Tivo is $470, $501 + Tax for the Comcast Box. 4 years and Tivo will run me $560, versues $669 + tax. Of course these estimates are barring no rate increases on the dvr or cable card rentals!

3. Correct, Tivo does not support OnDemand. Personally I find OnDemand useless for our household. Instead Tivo offers video rentals via Amazon Unbox for $2.99, a bunch of other free over internet subscription services, podcasting, Live365.com radio, weather, traffic, movie times, photo view via Yahoo pictures, itunes integration and rumor has it the entire Netflix library coming at somepoint. I never use OnDemand, so for me it is useless but others may like it.

4. Incorrect that a Tivo S3 will be useless when SDV comes out. Tivo and the cable companies and the people who set standards for cable cards are working to get this sorted out. On top if it, why would Comcast want to hurt a relationship that they just spent 3 years devoping with Tivo in order to get the Tivo software on the Motorola boxes?

5. I do not have the Comcast DVRs mixed up. In fact I am in an all SA area and the SA8300 is the ONLY dvr you can get around here. My neighbors have it and I think the video quality on it bites the big one. Which leads me to #6

6. Video Quality - I'm a stickler for clean crisp video; the S3 is light years ahead of the SA3800 in terms of video quality for recording, and live TV. Macroblocking is quite apparent when watching live HD feeds on the SA3800 at my neighbors 2 houses down. On my Tivo S3, none, nada. The SA3800 may compress the video, I know the Tivo S3 records digital streams bit for bit, no loss.

7. Transfer your shows to other Tivos, share videos, transfer to your computer, ipod, etc... May not interest you but those features exist for the Tivo S2 and are rumored to be avail for S3 shortly.

Am I brand loyal? Yes. Am I a stickler for good quality and ease of use and no crashes? Yes. Did I pay a premium for my S3? Yes and it is worth every penny.

-t
 
More incomplete responses and/or mis-information.. look dude, I appreciate you support your brand because of your investment in it but come on!

A few facts to correct here:

2. In some areas having Tivo is cheaper; agreed there is an upfront cost but if you can get a lifetime subscription on an S3 you are ahead of the game. For me I transferred a lifetime subscription, it cost $200 to transfer. So looking at 3 years the Tivo is $5.55 a month for the service and $7.50 for the cable card. or $13.05 a month. The DVR unit here in my area is $13.94 a month. Total cost for 3 years of Tivo is $470, $501 + Tax for the Comcast Box. 4 years and Tivo will run me $560, versues $669 + tax. Of course these estimates are barring no rate increases on the dvr or cable card rentals!

Hey you left out the cost of the Tivo hardware in your calculation! You're also assuming that your Tivo lasts 3 years (see below). In addition it's a bit of a stretch to assume someone would be transferring a lifetime subscription. Try refiguring that based on the normal Tivo rates and including the costs of the boxes -oh wait, there isn't one for the Comcast box... Let's not forget either about replacement costs should something break, there isn't any with a Comcast box. I have two of them, one is included in my base rate and I pay $11.95 for the second. I heavily considered the S3 because of the ability to add storage, however the cost and upcoming obsolescence swayed me away from it. Though the recent rebates and price drops have made it more attractive, until it's much cheaper I don't think it's a good deal.

3. Correct, Tivo does not support OnDemand. Personally I find OnDemand useless for our household. Instead Tivo offers video rentals via Amazon Unbox for $2.99, a bunch of other free over internet subscription services, podcasting, Live365.com radio, weather, traffic, movie times, photo view via Yahoo pictures, itunes integration and rumor has it the entire Netflix library coming at somepoint. I never use OnDemand, so for me it is useless but others may like it.

Obviously it's been a while since you've looked at On Demand. Comcast has grown the content quite a bit and it continues to expand. All of that other stuff is just fluff.

4. Incorrect that a Tivo S3 will be useless when SDV comes out. Tivo and the cable companies and the people who set standards for cable cards are working to get this sorted out. On top if it, why would Comcast want to hurt a relationship that they just spent 3 years devoping with Tivo in order to get the Tivo software on the Motorola boxes?

Tivo needs Comcast more, not the other way around. Tivo is hurting for the revenue that Comcast's subscribers can provide them. Comcast is not in control of what CableLabs develops. Unless Tivo can miracously update the firmware in S3 boxes to support upcoming two-way communication standards you're going to be severely limited to the channels that you can receive (only those transmitted 24/7 through SDV).


5. I do not have the Comcast DVRs mixed up. In fact I am in an all SA area and the SA8300 is the ONLY dvr you can get around here. My neighbors have it and I think the video quality on it bites the big one. Which leads me to #6

So many factors can affect this (e.g. video cable quality, type of connection etc) that I'm not even going to touch it. I've seen installers that still use coax to hook up HD boxes because they're idiots and the customer doesn't know better (geee.. what are all these other inputs for?).

6. Video Quality - I'm a stickler for clean crisp video; the S3 is light years ahead of the SA3800 in terms of video quality for recording, and live TV. Macroblocking is quite apparent when watching live HD feeds on the SA3800 at my neighbors 2 houses down. On my Tivo S3, none, nada. The SA3800 may compress the video, I know the Tivo S3 records digital streams bit for bit, no loss.

The SA records exactly what it's fed (same as the Moto). Oh yeah, a live feed is the same as a recorded feed - so no need to distinguish between the two. No additional compression done when recording. Same as your S3. See above answer for possible issues. Also could be affected by signal strength, number of splitters upstream etc.

7. Transfer your shows to other Tivos, share videos, transfer to your computer, ipod, etc... May not interest you but those features exist for the Tivo S2 and are rumored to be avail for S3 shortly.

I'll believe that when I see it. There's a reason Tivo didn't put that into the S3 when it shipped. Do you really think it will happen in the future? LOL BTW: you can transfer recordings to a computer from the SA and Moto boxes as well.

Am I brand loyal? Yes. Am I a stickler for good quality and ease of use and no crashes? Yes. Did I pay a premium for my S3? Yes and it is worth every penny.

-t
 
A few facts to correct here:


3. Correct, Tivo does not support OnDemand. Personally I find OnDemand useless for our household.

-t


I dont have a problem with anyone defending TIVO. But this makes no sense to me. Maybe you havent used it lately, but I cannot fathom how someone finds it useless. As a former SAT user for the last decade plus - I find the OnDemand simply amazing. I can ALWAYS find something worth watching. In fact, I am a big DVR guy - I think they are simply a must have - but with OnDemand I find it much less necessary except for my sporting events.

I mean almost everything is FREE on it...!!! Tons of Free HD content at the fingertips is like heaven on earth....
 
I dont have a problem with anyone defending TIVO. But this makes no sense to me. Maybe you havent used it lately, but I cannot fathom how someone finds it useless. As a former SAT user for the last decade plus - I find the OnDemand simply amazing. I can ALWAYS find something worth watching. In fact, I am a big DVR guy - I think they are simply a must have - but with OnDemand I find it much less necessary except for my sporting events.

I mean almost everything is FREE on it...!!! Tons of Free HD content at the fingertips is like heaven on earth....

Simple. In our household we enjoy the shows that Tivo gets for us and we watch live sports (Red Sox and Patriots). Other than that, if its not in Tivo or on live TV we have no interest in searching for something to fill our time. We'd rather do other things (hobbies, house work, etc) than sit in front of our TV all the time.

Tivo has freed up our time to do more things by giving us what we want to watch when we have time. Watching shows for the sake of watching them because they are there doesn't cut it for us. We've ordered 1, yes 1 Ondemand program in the past year..

I returned my SA3250 that we had before we got the Tivo S3 and we are now ondemandless, and we don't feel as if we are missing a thing.

Its a function of how you use your TV i suppose..

-t
 
2. Correct, the cost of Tivo was high, $500 to be exact. Did I mind spending that? Nope. My Tivo S1 has been going for 6.5 years now, so yes I do feel that my Tivo S3 will be working 3 years from now, and even more. Lets do the math on my original S1. Purchase price with lifetime in 2001 was $550. Sounds like big money... well 6.5 years of DVR rentals would have cost me $975 and counting.. Wait, what is that you say? in 2000 Comcast didn't have DVRs? I guess I enjoyed something waaay ahead of everyone else. :)

3. I know whats in OnDemand. And I just returned my SA3250 box. Our household is not interested in that material, see above post. The "other stuff" may be fluff to you, but ondemand is fluff to me.

4. Tivo is a linux box and doesn't have "firmware" per say. It runs a proprietary operating system that gets constant updates every 2 months or so. Tivo is actively adding features to the S3, in fact we just got a service update a few weeks ago with a search system that utilizes the itnernet (Swivel Search). Even my S1 received an update a few months back when the daylight savings times changed.

5. My neighbor down the street comes off of the same tap. We are in a new neighbor hood with equipment and lines that are only 2.5 years old. My neighbor has 1 splitter between the street and his SA8300, its hooked up to his HD CRT via HDMI and the quality is no where near that of the Tivo.

7. S3 was placed into the market a bit early. Development and features for the S3 are ongoing. I think you will see some major additions to the S3 shortly. When the S2 came out they did not have any additional features, Tivo2Go or Multi Room Viewing.. now they do...

-t
 
Simple. In our household we enjoy the shows that Tivo gets for us and we watch live sports (Red Sox and Patriots). Other than that, if its not in Tivo or on live TV we have no interest in searching for something to fill our time. We'd rather do other things (hobbies, house work, etc) than sit in front of our TV all the time.
-t

Yeah, thats what I do - sit in front of the TV all day..... :rolleyes:
[sarcasm]We never do housework and I dont have ANY hobbies like being a working musician in my spare time or water sports, golfing & fishing. And I sure dont care for sports and Tigers & Red Wings[/sarcasm]
 
2. Correct, the cost of Tivo was high, $500 to be exact. Did I mind spending that? Nope. My Tivo S1 has been going for 6.5 years now, so yes I do feel that my Tivo S3 will be working 3 years from now, and even more. Lets do the math on my original S1. Purchase price with lifetime in 2001 was $550. Sounds like big money... well 6.5 years of DVR rentals would have cost me $975 and counting.. Wait, what is that you say? in 2000 Comcast didn't have DVRs? I guess I enjoyed something waaay ahead of everyone else. :)

3. I know whats in OnDemand. And I just returned my SA3250 box. Our household is not interested in that material, see above post. The "other stuff" may be fluff to you, but ondemand is fluff to me.

4. Tivo is a linux box and doesn't have "firmware" per say. It runs a proprietary operating system that gets constant updates every 2 months or so. Tivo is actively adding features to the S3, in fact we just got a service update a few weeks ago with a search system that utilizes the itnernet (Swivel Search). Even my S1 received an update a few months back when the daylight savings times changed.

5. My neighbor down the street comes off of the same tap. We are in a new neighbor hood with equipment and lines that are only 2.5 years old. My neighbor has 1 splitter between the street and his SA8300, its hooked up to his HD CRT via HDMI and the quality is no where near that of the Tivo.

7. S3 was placed into the market a bit early. Development and features for the S3 are ongoing. I think you will see some major additions to the S3 shortly. When the S2 came out they did not have any additional features, Tivo2Go or Multi Room Viewing.. now they do...

-t

4. Firmware and operating systems are two different things. Firmware is software for specific parts of hardware that can't always be changed. For example the network card in your computer has a set of firmware that governs how it operates. An operating system (such as Linux) governs how you interact with the various pieces of hardware that your computer is composed of. The same applies to your Tivo unit which really is nothing more than a highly specialized computer. Now it may be possible for Tivo to update the firmware in the S3 to work with SDV as some firmware (not all) is updatedable. However if the new SDV standard requires different CableCARD hardware then you're pretty much out of luck. If you're familiar with Dish Network at all then you probably know about the card swaps that they've been doing over the years. Over time there have been receivers that they simply cannot update the firmware on to work with the new cards so newer model receivers are issued to replace those receivers. I know that they had to do that with the 2000 series receiver and I'm sure they'll have to do it with some more. Will this be the case for the S3? Hard for me to say since I'm not familiar with the CableLabs CableCARD specifications but it is a possibility.

Meathead:

You said that the Motorola units can already transfer shows to PCs? How is this done? The only way I've seen is by hooking up a firewire cable from the Motorola unit to your PC and then using a sort of kludge of software to record to the PC in realtime. This does not work with all content as well as any 5C encrypted content can not be transferred via this method. Is there some new (and hopefully easier) method to transfer your shows to PC? I'd really like to transfer some shows to mine to edit out the commercials
 
4. Firmware and operating systems are two different things. Firmware is software for specific parts of hardware that can't always be changed. For example the network card in your computer has a set of firmware that governs how it operates. An operating system (such as Linux) governs how you interact with the various pieces of hardware that your computer is composed of. The same applies to your Tivo unit which really is nothing more than a highly specialized computer. Now it may be possible for Tivo to update the firmware in the S3 to work with SDV as some firmware (not all) is updatedable. However if the new SDV standard requires different CableCARD hardware then you're pretty much out of luck. If you're familiar with Dish Network at all then you probably know about the card swaps that they've been doing over the years. Over time there have been receivers that they simply cannot update the firmware on to work with the new cards so newer model receivers are issued to replace those receivers. I know that they had to do that with the 2000 series receiver and I'm sure they'll have to do it with some more. Will this be the case for the S3? Hard for me to say since I'm not familiar with the CableLabs CableCARD specifications but it is a possibility.

Oh i know, I was stating from a fact of what Tivo sends regular updates. I work in the tech industry, very familiar w/firmware and software builds. :) Tivo "could" be flashing the firmware, but from what I've seen and all of the work I've done on the boxes the changes so far have been software based. The S3 was designed right (as opposed to the S2 and S1 that lacked some basic engineering and design features), there are features that haven't been officially turned on yet either (SATA port for external storage for one...) We'll see what Tivo does.. The S3 Lite that comes out this fall should shed some light on their future plans as well..

-t
 
Meathead:

You said that the Motorola units can already transfer shows to PCs? How is this done? The only way I've seen is by hooking up a firewire cable from the Motorola unit to your PC and then using a sort of kludge of software to record to the PC in realtime. This does not work with all content as well as any 5C encrypted content can not be transferred via this method. Is there some new (and hopefully easier) method to transfer your shows to PC? I'd really like to transfer some shows to mine to edit out the commercials

Sorry, didn't mean to allude to an actual "file transfer". The way you described it is the way it is.
 

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