C band set up - cannot lock on any birds

[BuckmasterBC]

I recently acquired c band equipment from about 2 hours away from my location. I finally got the dish mounted but cannot get any signal.

Here is what I have: StarTrak 10’ dish, StarTrak c band lnb, Superjack actuator, GI350I receiver (for moving the dish), Openbox S9

Here is what I have done: The polar mount is set to true south using a compass (160 degrees magnetic). I mounted the dish but have not made any adjustments to elevation or declination as I assumed it wouldn’t be far off already. I moved the dish to what I believe is 99 W and cannot get any signal. The GI has 4 digit sat positions – is there a chart somewhere where I can confirm the sats for these numbers? The previous owner had them all written in his manual so I have been able to figure it out but want to confirm. Regardless, I can’t get signal on anything – my S9 reads intensity 45% and quality 10% always.

Questions:

1. Elevation – sat charts say I should be at 31 degree and the dish is currently at about 60 degrees. I placed one piece of wood along the polar mount and one on the level to measure – is this right?
2. lnb – I haven’t done anything with this – it is set at 38 on the lnb itself – not sure if this is correct. I hear the lnb when I change channels so I believe it is attached correctly. My dish is 10’ and the depth 22” and 45” from the centre of the dish to the feedhorn.

I have used a lot of sites (geo-orbit) being the best I have found – I need some basic help to verify if I have setup the dish correctly. Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

I am in a remote location (my cabin) which is where the dish is and I have this week to try to get it working. My location is lat 51.5253 long -120.7552. I am on dialup internet so sending pics could be a challenge but willing to try if it will help solve my issues.

 

[hwm]

I am no expert on this, but I was able to setup my C-band dish without too much trouble after reading some FAQs on this site, but I can no longer find them here.

A magnetic compass will help guide you in the proper direction, but is not accurate enough by itself to align the polar mount.

You need to set your polar mount to the center/top of the arc postion and rotate the mount on the pole to lock in your true south satellite first, before you try for any others.

Here is a link to some detailed step by step instructions: Footprints by Dish Size - Adjusting the Polar Mount for Prime Focus Antenna - C/Ku-Band Satellite Systems - Tuning, Tracking, Azimuth, Elevation, Declination Angles, F/D Ratio, Focal Distance, Inclinometer, LNB/Feedhorn Assembly, Actuator Assembly, C

 

[Lone Cloud]

If your information is right, you are in British Columbia at about 123 degrees west longitude. You should be aiming at the satellites at 123 west, 121 west and 125 west. and not at 99 west just yet. There are transponders on all three of those satellites which are hot. Some have programming you can grab, some are encrypted, but your receiver will still register them .

I know the math formula guys try to get the signals with inclinometers, but I haven't had good luck with that method.
I have a couple of old Viewsat sd receivers from back in the old days when hacking was a big deal. These receivers have "beep on scan" functions, meaning when signal strength gets higher, a higher pitched and faster beeping is emitted from the audio. Using wireless headphones, receiver set on the hot transponder and settings, with the audio connected to the sending unit, I just go up to my dish, loosen a few nuts and bolts and start moving things around by hand. I don't know if your Openbox has the "beep on scan" function, but it is invaluable for aiming. Otherwise the Viewsat products I have are basically junk.

The other thing is you might be off on skew or focal length. Did the prior owner have the dish in use? When/if you disconnected the lnb for transport, did you carefully mark it before you disassembled? How about your pole? Is it dead plumb?

I am not familiar with the S-9 receiver, but if it has some kind of scale that goes higher when you have better signal, you maybe could get a friend to scream out to you when the signal goes up or down.

But stay on those three satellites. If the prior owner used the dish to get the entire arc, and is pretty much at your latitude, you are probably right that the declination should be left alone

 

[FaT Air]

Bud Manual may help, but I see the C band stickies are missing. 123 west is your "south satellite". With the dish at the highest point in it's movement with the actuator, find 123 west* first by rotating the mount on the pole and Adjusting elevation. Move away from center with the actuator only and locate sats farther away from center. adjust mount (twist) on pole to peak, DO NOT ADJUST ELEVATION. actuator and mount only adjusted. When at the end of arc. tighten mount and actuator the dish back to center and re-check levels. That should get you Good to go.
Note on picture: angles are close enough to start, modified only slightly with the modified declination angles.
* 125W could also be used, as could 121W.

 

[hwm]

FaT Air's BUD manual helped me a lot. It used to be a sticky at the top of the C-band forum. I finally found it here: http://www.satelliteguys.us/c-band-satellite-discussion/222234-bud-manual.html

 

[BuckmasterBC]

Thanks for the manual - it is helpful. So far I have completed:
String test: dish is not warped

f/d ratio: 37 - lnb was at 38 but adjusted it to 37

focal length: calculated to be 44.15" (120*120)/(16*20.25)= 44.4 - .25 = 44.15
I think this may be one of the issues as the distance from the centre of the dish to the feed mount is 46" and I can't change it as the 4 support bars are not adjustable.

Moved the dish to 123 W

The elevation angle is set correctly for this location

Still no signal - could it be my lnb doesn't work? I'm thinking my next steps are:
purchase and connect a satellite/signal finder
purchase a new lnb

The GI350i does not help in determining signal stregth so I am using my S9 for that. Any other suggested next steps? Thanks for the help.

 

[hwm]

Actually, you can change your focal depth setting on most 4-bar C-band LNB support systems. Loosen all four mount bolts at the scalar ring, and rotate the ring to shorten the focal depth setting. Rotating the ring from the straight-in position of the mount bars will suck it in closer to the dish. I fine tuned my old Winegard 10-footer this way.

A new LNB would be a good idea. The original on my 1980-something dish was corroded to junk. Even if yours is still functional, a new one will have better performance, and have voltage-switching of polarity instead of a servo-motor, so it will work with the new Openbox. You can get them for less than $30 delivered on eBay.

When you are looking for digital signal, you want Quality. Strength just tells you that your LNB is working.

 

[FaT Air]

My S9, with an LNBF attached, will show a signal of around 40. With No LNBF attached, signal = around 10 or less. Can't quite remember exactly. I should, had a LNBF failure just a week ago. As soon as I get a Q reading, the signal jumps up to 80+. You didn't say what signal reading you're getting, but if it's not idling around 40, I suspect it's a bad LNB. I'd replace the whole works with an LNBF and be done with servo. That way blind scan can be unattended and no channels will show up on both polarities.

 

[Lone Cloud]

I hope you are doing OK. Focal length from my experience, isn't measured from the scalar to the dish. It's measured from the lnb receiver wire to the dish face. That means you can adjust it somewhat by loosening the holding screw and moving the lnb in and out. Ususally there is about an inch and a half of play in that.

Another thing I would check is that your scalar plate is centered in the dish. If it isn't, the signal will just miss it. I don't know your dish but the guys here have discussed from time to time how buttonhook units can go off. My first C-band dish had three struts and it went off center also.

Sticking a Ku lnb into your scalar could work. You have119 west (Dish Network) there and some strong signals. Once I taped a Ku LNB into my scalar and foud the signal and got it going that way.

Good luck. Hope things are going well.

 

[Lone Cloud]

To clarify, the "lnb receiver wire" I refer to are the wires inside the throat of the lnb that are at ninety degrees of each other. I didn't mean the rbg that goes from the lnb to the receiver

 

[stone1150]

long -120.7552

After 12.59.59 comes 121.00.00............. Something isn't right here..... Tried to pinpoint with Google earth so I could work out settings. Also not sure how far or what direction you brought the dish in. For example I just moved a dish that was 2 hours away. (2 hours hauling it that is) actual distance on a map was due south about 35 miles. That translated to an elevation adjustment to get me started. If I would of moved it from the west, then I would make the proper azmuth adjustment(loosen mount and rotate on the pole.) to get started. Now all of that said, set your dish and put your receiver on TP 7 for the C-4 bird (I think that is how the receiver has it labled... it's been awhile,) . That is an analog frequency that carrys C-span which you should get you something on that receiver. Once you find that. then you will have a starting point for finding other birds.

 

[stanleyjohn]

After looking at dishpointer if im looking at the right location you seem to have real good line of site to the south with the lake there.

 

[BuckmasterBC]

Yes I have a good line of site to the south over the lake. For google earth my coordinates (in degrees) are 51° 31' 31.02"N and 120°45'18.06"W. The previous owner was at 50°40'30.47"N and 120°17'7.95"W at 367m elevation. I am at 1138m in elevation. I suspect that I need to point the dish lower for my elevation?? Dishpointer indicates I should set the elevation to 31 degrees for 121W (which is my true south sat). I am back at home now (the dish is at my cabin) but I will be back up in 3 weeks to try again. I plan to have a new lnbf in hand when I return. Any other pointers are most welcome.

 

[Lone Cloud]

Yes I have a good line of site to the south over the lake. For google earth my coordinates (in degrees) are 51° 31' 31.02"N and 120°45'18.06"W. The previous owner was at 50°40'30.47"N and 120°17'7.95"W at 367m elevation. I am at 1138m in elevation. I suspect that I need to point the dish lower for my elevation?? Dishpointer indicates I should set the elevation to 31 degrees for 121W (which is my true south sat). I am back at home now (the dish is at my cabin) but I will be back up in 3 weeks to try again. I plan to have a new lnbf in hand when I return. Any other pointers are most welcome.

Not really. The Clarke Belt is about 22,000 miles (35,786 km) out there (and on the plane of the Equator). The difference in aiming from your elevation to sea level is so small as to be nonexistent. For example, the play or "wiggle" in the dish will be more than the angle differences as between sea level and your elevation. Check the trigonometry on it.

With the previous owner's location being so close in lat and long. virtually all your angles will be the same. The question is, did the prior owner scan the arc? If he did, then putting the dish on all of the same exact angles he had will be the best starting point.

How long is your cable run from dish to receiver?More than a hundred feet and some guys use a powered amplifier. Are you sure the coax is good and the fittings are on right?

You have to also make sure all of your receiver settings are right, and that your receiver is set on a hot transponder when you adjust. At that location, I would probably set for 121w and the Al Jazeera English station.

 

[Beano_face]

just because the dish was located close to you... doesnt mean the elevation/ declination was set up properly in the first place...

 

[PKII]

Is the pole perfectly plumb?

 

[Lone Cloud]

just because the dish was located close to you... doesnt mean the elevation/ declination was set up properly in the first place...

Of course the prior settings could be wrong but they are a reasonable place to start.

 

[BuckmasterBC]

Lone Cloud - I am assuming the previous owner scanned the arc as he had all the satellites programmed and had a "key" written in his manual of the satellite 2 character name (ie. G1) and the corresponding 4 digit location in the GI350i. I will keep the existing elevation/declination angles for now - I have confirmed that they are correct for my location. I have a new DMX741 (standard) arriving this week as well as a sat finder and will install it this weekend. The run from my dish to the box is about 50 feet. I will attempt to point to 121W and the Al Jazeera English station.

RE: receiver set up correctly - I will be using the GI350i to control the actuator (which I have tested and is functioning properly) and everything else will be through my Openbox S9. I may need some assistance getting the S9 settings correct .

I think the biggest issue I have is focal length - the measurement is from the center plate of the dish to the scaler ring? I have heard conflicting info on how to measure this. I also need to verify that the scaler ring is directly centered - I plan to take 3-4 measurements from the dish edge to the scaler - is this a reasonable method? I have 4 supports to the scaler and will try and rotate it to move it to the correct focal length.

The pole is perfectly plumb.

 

[T4Runner]

The FOCAL LENGTH is measured from the center of the dish to 1/4' INSIDE the LNB. So the LNB will be slidng in and out of the scaler ring to adjust this measurement. Fun stuff huh?

Someone on the forum suggested to me to not set any motor settings on the OpenBox S9 until you have found a few sat's by moving and using the xbox, vbox, etc... worked or me.

 

[Lone Cloud]

Lone Cloud - I am assuming the previous owner scanned the arc as he had all the satellites programmed and had a "key" written in his manual of the satellite 2 character name (ie. G1) and the corresponding 4 digit location in the GI350i. I will keep the existing elevation/declination angles for now - I have confirmed that they are correct for my location. I have a new DMX741 (standard) arriving this week as well as a sat finder and will install it this weekend. The run from my dish to the box is about 50 feet. I will attempt to point to 121W and the Al Jazeera English station.

RE: receiver set up correctly - I will be using the GI350i to control the actuator (which I have tested and is functioning properly) and everything else will be through my Openbox S9. I may need some assistance getting the S9 settings correct .

I think the biggest issue I have is focal length - the measurement is from the center plate of the dish to the scaler ring? I have heard conflicting info on how to measure this. I also need to verify that the scaler ring is directly centered - I plan to take 3-4 measurements from the dish edge to the scaler - is this a reasonable method? I have 4 supports to the scaler and will try and rotate it to move it to the correct focal length.

The pole is perfectly plumb.

Good. Here is something that some guys forget: "apex" and "due south" should be the same position. On some dishes, it's hard to know where that apex position is. For example, I need to use a big framing square for my Birdview. It is essentially when the very tippy top of the dish edge is highest off the ground.

It looks like you are about a quarter of a degree off of 121w. On mine, after some experience, I determined that I have about fifteen clicks per degree (Gbox). If I were in your situation with my rig, I would be getting my apex position and then going three or four "clicks" west. If you have the information for your setup, I would do the same thing - get apex exactly, and then do however many clicks west you need to get a quarter of a degree.

It's a good idea to run your coax directly from your 741 to your Openbox. Sounds like you are doing that.

I am not familiar with the 741. I used to have a BSC 621 which is similar but they say the 741 is better. It will either be diseqc commands, or 22 khz commands to select the band.

I don't think you have posted pictures of your dish and mover. Might help us get you there.