Canadian/US services Redux

[CDH]

Okay, so I know this thread may be closed, but since it doesn't actually advocate theft of service I don't see why.

In regards to Sands' post here: http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=68187

Grammar and punctuation aside (which I agree are abominable), s/he has a point. One of the mods even acknowledges that he is using Canadian services, probably in violation of service agreements.

Posts are permitted regarding grey-market US-based BEV and Starchoice accounts (using brokers who seem to be operating in violation of the Canadian service agreements), but seemingly not in relation to Canadian-based users of US services. It seems clear that if one of the Canadian providers figures out that a subscriber/user of their services is based in the US then they will disconnect, so where's the difference?

Isn't there a double-standard at work here?

CDH.

PS -- None of this is relevant to me as I am a US resident looking forward to my new Dish/942 install on Saturday, but I am an advocate for an open discourse!

 

[braindead]

Posts are permitted regarding grey-market US-based BEV and Starchoice accounts (using brokers who seem to be operating in violation of the Canadian service agreements), but seemingly not in relation to Canadian-based users of US services. It seems clear that if one of the Canadian providers figures out that a subscriber/user of their services is based in the US then they will disconnect, so where's the difference?

Isn't there a double-standard at work here?

The difference is, I am told, that Canada actually has a law making it at least a civil offense to buy US satellite. Thus it is "illegal," albeit not fair. But as to Canadian providers shutting down the brokers, that is just a company policy.

As to the legality of "account sharing, I believe that common law applies, and the issue is that of Fraud. There doesn't appear to be a US statute or Administrative regulation in regards to this. But again, I am sure that one would be subject to a significant damages award for being found liable for fraud. And it would not benefit this website to be sued by BEV or DISH for encouraging Fraud. Lawsuits are expensive even when you don't lose.

 

[Mr Tony]

Okay, so I know this thread may be closed, but since it doesn't actually advocate theft of service I don't see why.

it talks about account sharing, which is in violation of the rules here

In regards to Sands' post here: http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=68187

Grammar and punctuation aside (which I agree are abominable), s/he has a point. One of the mods even acknowledges that he is using Canadian services, probably in violation of service agreements.

yes I do. I had ExpressVu for 17 months and SC for 8 months now. Been going through a broker the whole time. A few of us here do this

Posts are permitted regarding grey-market US-based BEV and Starchoice accounts (using brokers who seem to be operating in violation of the Canadian service agreements),

grey market is different than black market

but seemingly not in relation to Canadian-based users of US services.

lots of people in Canada post in the Dish/Direct area, and not here

It seems clear that if one of the Canadian providers figures out that a subscriber/user of their services is based in the US then they will disconnect, so where's the difference?

Isn't there a double-standard at work here?

CDH.

PS -- None of this is relevant to me as I am a US resident looking forward to my new Dish/942 install on Saturday, but I am an advocate for an open discourse!

The rules are pretty simple. ExpressVu & Sc can only sell to Canadian addresses. Dish & Direct can only sell to US addresses. The CRTC (Canadiabn version of FCC) says you cannot subscribe to Dish or Direct.

The FCC never said you couldn't subscribe to Canadian TV. Since you can't technically call up StarChoice and give them my US address, we go through brokers. All they do is set up my account with a Canadian address and be the middle man if there is issues.

ExpressVu has a bigger thing to deal with and those are the hackers
SC is happy that they have subscribers. heck, they post on their site to take your receiver to the US if you want to.

The big issue is account sharing. When we get set up, you are billed on your CC. Account sharing is having 8 receivers at 8 different locations.

 

[Kryspy]

That poor dead horse !!!!!

Kryspy

 

[tdti1]

"The big issue is account sharing. When we get set up, you are billed on your CC. Account sharing is having 8 receivers at 8 different locations."



Yes most people I no with pizza dish do this, now that dish/bell are going N2, that will help, but how can they stop the ones who share?

 

[Mr Tony]

N2 does have some part of it, but very little. Most people who are worried about N2 are the hackers.

It’s a two fold issue here…..the brokers who do it and the people who do it
If a person does it (let’s say I activate an account and have 5 receivers…one for me, one for you, one for someone else, etc) and I charge you $25 a month for it. All Dish can do is shut down the receivers and request they are plugged into a phone line

The brokers who do it, Dish & Direct are going after with lawsuits and stuff…

Is account sharing legal-no
Do we allow it here-no
Is it being done-yes it is

 

[Derwin0]

The FCC never said you couldn't subscribe to Canadian TV.

The FCC doesn't have the power anyway, nor Congress. There is already court precedent allowing U.S. people to subscribe to overseas providers of entertainment (as long as they don't violate obscenity standards or content laws, ie. child porn) by virtue of the 1st amendment.

fyi, the decision was in a nintendo case with people getting games shipped from Japan before release in the States. Nintendo N.A. tried to stop it, but the courts said no. It led to regional codes, but the legal precedent was already set.

 

[rangers00]

The difference is, I am told, that Canada actually has a law making it at least a civil offense to buy US satellite. Thus it is "illegal," albeit not fair.

It was illegal, at least in Quebec, for Canadians to subscribe to Dish/DirecTV only from May 2002 to October 2004.

On October 28, 2004, Judge Danielle Cote ruled that it's against the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedom to prohibit Canadians to subscribe to DirecTV and Dish Network.

http://www.digitalhomecanada.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48&Itemid=1

Thus, RCA's prohibition is illegal. It's legal to sub to foreign service, at least according to the ruling. That's only in Quebec, but it will have influences on other provinces.

Afterall, isn't it ridiculous to allow Canadians to watch unencrypted foreign content (American channels on FTA MPEG2/DVB and analog C-band, as well as the FTA ethnic channels on IA5, SatMex5, etc.) but it's against the law to pay for it?

Is RCA's stand really that stupid? like

"if you watch free channels, it's OK, but if you are going to pay, your eyeballs belong to Rogers, *C and Bell ExpressVu"?

 

[cablewithaview]

Is there some talk since the new members of government are coming in in Canada, that they may allow sales of services or at least channels here? seem like I ran across something about that in the last few days?

 

[Sands`]

What I was saying in the previous post, was us Canadaians are forced it seems to Account share. With us not being allowed to use our credit cards with US service. I don't really want to account share I just want the ability to Sub to a US Service. The law is a fine line here in Canada in regards to grey market, I believe we can now, but with Bell and Star Choice asking Dish and Direct not to allow us. I know that Bell and Dish had teamed up not to allow sales of receivers into to Canada. There is a double Standard at work not so much here but in the ability for Canadians to get US signal. These brookers for US signals take advantage, they are really the ones that abuse the account sharing, and charge and arm and a leg. Great! you guys get CDN satellite, at a reasonable cost, actually be able to Sub your self I would just like the opportunity, either way you look at it, it must be illigal for US to get our service, if you have to lie about where the service is located. You are paying for the service to be located at the Canadain addy you provided, you are not using it there, Thus NOT TELLING THE TRUTH to obtain something.

Oh and by the way Teachers, what is my grade for grammer?

 

[Derwin0]

On October 28, 2004, Judge Danielle Cote ruled that it's against the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedom to prohibit Canadians to subscribe to DirecTV and Dish Network.

That decision was overturned by the Quebec Superior Court who ruled for the Crown on March 31, 2005. So it is still illegal for Canadians to subscribe to foreign satellite services (ie. Dish and Directv).

http://www.dishnewsonline.tv/index.php?action=news

"Quebec's top court has overturned a ruling that opened the door for Canadians to tap foreign satellite television signals without using a domestic satellite provider.

"This is extremely important," said Luc Perreault, co-chair of the Coalition Against Satellite Signal Theft. "It confirms that (accessing television) signals by illegally acquiring codes is against the law."

The issue was thrown into legal limbo after a Quebec court ruled last year that banning people from paying grey market distributors for access to foreign satellite signals is a violation of Canadians' right to freedom of expression.

The Radiocommunication Act prohibits the importation of satellite TV signals except through a domestic dealer such as BellExpressVu or Star Choice.

That meant Canadians could not watch certain U.S. or foreign networks, such as ESPN, HBO, Nickelodeon or Italy's RAI International, unless they went through an illegal dealer.

Ottawa appealed the lower-court ruling, which acquitted two Drummondville, Que., residents accused of offences under federal communications laws. The appeal decision, which was brought down March 31, overturned that ruling.

The coalition claims Canadian broadcasters and satellite distributors lose more than $400 million a year to illegal satellite signal use.

The group argued domestic broadcasters pay for the right to show a program in this country and that right is devalued if the same program is available in Canada through a foreign satellite service.

They noted that U.S. satellite providers also want to stamp out the practice.

A DirecTV spokesman last year said the satellite provider doesn't want to sell in Canada because the U.S. networks it carries do not have programming rights in this country.

However, D'Argy says that what is at stake for Canadians is the freedom to choose what they watch and hear.

He said the protectionist Canadian broadcast industry prevents him from tuning in to the most democratic of channels -- CSPAN, the American equivalent of the parliamentary or National Assembly stations.

"We are slaves to Star Choice and (Bell) ExpressVu," he said. "

 

[cablewithaview]

Starchoice and Bell has agreements with the government not to sale services to the U.S. with there knowing of it. However using a broker for SC and Bell, they don't know it's outside of Canada. FCC and our government has nothing that defines anything outside the country being viewed per say. Here our government doesn't say "we have a fragile culture therefore we must protect you from outside influences". here we have freedoms that more and less protects what we view, say and express. FCC doesn't break down our doors and hall us off to jail for viewing these services. If the Canadian government was so worried about outside influence to begin with, then why have any U.S. networks and stations viewed in Canada on these services?? I hope with the new government, these walls between the two concerning tv will be resolved. NAFTA didn't help here. here is 2cents worth to read:

No legal framework exists in which to subscribe to Canadian satellite services outside of Canada. In their original agreements to receive operating licenses from the Canadian government, satellite operators such as STAR CHOICE and others have been given authority to serve paying customers only WITHIN Canada. Would-be subscribers are required to have a bonafide Canadian address before service will be turned on. Once a legitimate address on Canadian soil has been established and entered into their computer, you are in the game. How this address is obtained is up to your ingenuity. Perhaps a brother-in-law in Toronto will let you use his address to enable a subscription. Those without friends or relatives in Canada can always rent a mailbox or purchase the more reliable services of a programming broker. This is a company that acts as your agent; providing a point of contact in your dealings with the satellite company, and a Canadian address. Give them a valid credit card number, and service will be set up.

Geographic coverage of the Anik F1 and F2 satellites extends well beyond Canada's borders. For business reasons outside of the STAR CHOICE programming service, strong signals are delivered not only to all of Canada, but the entire U.S. Lower 48 and all of Mexico. Hawaii is also served, as well as parts of Alaska, Central America and the extreme northwestern Caribbean region. Canadians (expatriates as well as those working or vacationing in these areas) now have the ability to receive not only Canadian broadcast television from five (5-1/2 if you count Newfoundland) time zones in both English and French languages, but Star Choice now offers a huge broadcast radio package from major markets across Canada in addition to 40 commercial free music channels. U.S. network television can be delivered from west coast markets of Seattle or Spokane, and east coast offerings of Detroit or Buffalo-NY. Dozens of Canadian cable channels are on board, as well as a number of American cable services. If a system is registered at a legitimate Canadian address, Star Choice is happy to accept your subscription, and the Canadian public now more or less expects to be able to get service in Sun Belt vacation spots not limited to Hawaii, California, Nevada, Texas, Florida and points to the south. Just because these Canadian residents are on vacation, or pursuing other interests in the warm "South", the company sees no reason to deny them access to entertainment from the home country. An account is registered within Canada, so as long as that requirement is met, they will privately acknowledge the existence of vacation installations. Just don't ask them to ship a system from Canada directly to that vacation spot. You must make those arrangements yourself, from within Canada.

Many Americans have also discovered the enjoyment of Canadian television. The CBC was transmitted in clear analog format on large-dish C-band for over 25 years. This was abandoned several years ago, and STAR CHOICE as well as competitor ExpressVu were the only way to continue reception of CBC television and radio. Vacationing Canadians in the Sun Belt states showed their American friends a solution to their Canadian TV withdrawal symptoms, and a cottage industry has formed. Companies such as ---------- noticed this opportunity early on, and began importing hardware to sell to those in the United States. Customers are directed to first make arrangements to provide a valid Canadian address, which is most easily done with a broker. Once this is accomplished, hardware can be provided, as well as detailed advice on how to align the system for best reception.

 

[rangers00]

either way you look at it, it must be illigal for US to get our service, if you have to lie about where the service is located. You are paying for the service to be located at the Canadain addy you provided, you are not using it there, Thus NOT TELLING THE TRUTH to obtain something.

You may not notice, but NOT TELLING THE TRUTH is not a crime, if the recipent of the message does NOT care about the truth. Afterall, this is not a perjury situation in court.

Even if the recipient thinks that it's a problem, it's still a civil suit between the two parties (i.e. the recipient of the message suffer monetary loss because of the conveyer not telling the truth), not a criminal suit. So it still has nothing to do with legality.

 

[rangers00]

That decision was overturned by the Quebec Superior Court who ruled for the Crown on March 31, 2005. So it is still illegal for Canadians to subscribe to foreign satellite services (ie. Dish and Directv).

Me bad. I am not aware of the appeal rulings. The last time we exchanged on this topic in this forum (back in January), it was still 2 months away from the appeal decision...

The group argued domestic broadcasters pay for the right to show a program in this country and that right is devalued if the same program is available in Canada through a foreign satellite service.

This is the problem I have with the Canadian ruling, with BS reasoning like that. Notice the reasoning is really a logic "if .... then .....".

The problem is, the premise of this logic is false.

the premise: Broadcasters pay for the rights to show a program in Canada,
the conclusion: that right is devalued if subscribers get it from foreign service

The truth is, there are lots of content available in the U.S. that Canadian broadcasters are NOT interested in, thus no carrier in Canada were interested in buying the rights to resell in Canada. So how is the right devalued in that case?

Why is it false? because there are lots of contents in the U.S. that are not available in Canada. Channels on DirecTV/Dish Network is more than double the channels on BEV, and I haven't even mentioned all the ethnic services that are available in the U.S., like the Chinese package, the Arabic package, the Bulgarian package, the Turkish package, etc.

The fact is that the crown make a blanket ban on foreign (American) DBS, intended for DirecTV and Dish Network in order to protect *C and BEV. Yet it also blanketly ban some services that have absolutely no equivalence in Canada, and blocking the immigrants from these countries to view their home country contents.

It's one thing if BEV, *C or some Canadian programmers are offering Bulgarian programming, but there is none. Yet Canadians are prohibited to subscribe to TV Bulgaria from Globecast in the U.S.

So the crown's (lower case all the way) message to Bulgarian immigrants is simple: if you want to watch TV, your eyeballs belong to us. You must watch CBC, CTV, TSN, etc.

They noted that U.S. satellite providers also want to stamp out the practice.

I doubt it, unless U.S. satellite providers only consist of DirecTV and Dish Network. It's unimaginable that Globecast (many different ethnic packages), DFH (Turkish), CSkyNet (Chinese), etc. would not want to sell to Canada from the U.S., given that they have no resalers in Canada.

 

[Satellite Expert]

Well the answer is really quite simple. Stop being Mexico North by voting for the same party ad nauseum. Democracies only work when the ruling parties are given the complete heave ho every 8 or 10 years. Otherwise, graft and corruption run rampant.

 

[cablewithaview]

Directv and Dish could care less about us watching Canadian tv. I would guess 98% of us has one of the two services in Canada (that actually subscribes from up north), along with one of the two here in the U.S. OMNI 1 and 2 has some ethinic programming, but it is few and far in between. is it really fair for those in Canada from other lands?? NO. Canadian government concerned about there "fragile culture". the only thing fragile is the Canadian's freedom!!!

 

[rangers00]

Directv and Dish could care less about us watching Canadian tv. I would guess 98% of us has one of the two services in Canada (that actually subscribes from up north), along with one of the two here in the U.S.

That's because your typical DirecTV/Dish users are clueless about BEV or *C. DirecTV/Dish users are so ignorant that 99.999% of them think there are only two satellites in the sky, for DirecTV and Dish Network. Canadian service? what's that?

It's not the case the other way around. I bet most of the BEV and *C users know about American DBS...

NO. Canadian government concerned about there "fragile culture". the only thing fragile is the Canadian's freedom!!!

Canadian government don't concern about their "fragile culture". They only care about the "fragile corporate bottom line". If culture is really that matters, Canadian government should outlaw MPEG2/FTA, because there are plenty of unencrypted American and ethnic channels available thru' that route.

Why is it OK for a Canadian to watch Fox, ABC or CBS on G10R, using an MPEG2/DVB, but not OK for a Canadian to watch these networks on DirecTV/Dish? Do you think RCA mandates these network affliates on G10R to do simsubs? And worse yt, there are an abundance of Univision, Galavision, Pax and WB affliates on G10R. Do the RCA do anything about protecting the Canadian culture? by outlawing the access of MPEG2/FTA?

And why is it OK for a Canadian to watch Arabic programming (e.g. ART, which is FTA) on Pas9 C-band? but not OK for a Canadian to watch ART (which is paid channel) on Dish Network?

You see consistency is seriously lacking in RCA's reasoning. "Protect their heritage" my foot!

 

[cablewithaview]

That's because your typical DirecTV/Dish users are clueless about BEV or *C. DirecTV/Dish users are so ignorant that 99.999% of them think there are only two satellites in the sky, for DirecTV and Dish Network. Canadian service? what's that?


I don't know about that. I use to think that to until recent. I had ran into a whole group of people that has Canadian service close to where I live. They are not from Canada or has relatives there. I wanted something different from the norm when I got my SC just like these others that has the service too. it's going around here by word of mouth. the installer that done my Directv and Wildblue system is now wanting SC. We have enjoyed the service and probably watch it more than my Directv.

It is possible and legal to buy and distribute Canadian networks (Global, CBC, CTV, CITY TV, Knowledge, Miracle, OMNI 1&2 etc.) here in the U.S. on a cable system through Cancom Broadcasting. Very few cable systems ever use these feeds, some along the border may have changed over to the satellite feeds to clean up there OTA channel. I am here in the south and I am launching CITY TV here after the first of the year. I already buy WSBK from Cancom. I like offering my customers something different from others around here.

 

[Sands`]

This thread really is going no wheres. I agree most of the problem stems from corporate Profits and Liberal side Kicks. I would bet though if you guys with with CDN satellite were to plug your Phone line in, you would be quickly cut off. I currently Sub to Bell (god knows why?), even if I was to get US satellite I would still Sub to a CDN service. All I was sayingin the previous thread was we CND's sometimes are forced to Account Share. I am sure the brokers that you guys in the US deal with seem reputable, where the ones to supply US service, seem to be ones that sold Hacked Satllite and now sell likly Account sharing Subs. I don't want that I want my own Sub. It isn't that hard to find the US addy, just hard to be able to pay for it on a monthly basis.

 

[cablewithaview]

don't worry I am not planning to plug my receiver into any phone line anytime soon. I love my Canadian tv to much to loose it. I even have a spare receiver if the main one goes down. as for hacked receivers, people want something for nothing. as far as I know, there has been no hacked Starchoice receivers yet. Motorola and Scientific Atlanta both commercially and residentially has it down pat. what gets me here Directv and Dish Network (BEL too) complains about theft all the time and how much it cost them per year. All I have to say to that is QUIT USING CHEAP RECEIVERS !!! the way I look at it is, if are going to do it right than do it or don't do it at all.