I believe it read more or less "Market Research" to determine if they should get into this and provide the service. And then they contracted with another organization to determine eligibility for DNS base on those limited number of addresses. +/-
Deal with NPS to "save" distants on DISH!
- Thread starter chaddux
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I quoted word for word what they said it was for. To determine if something like this is feasible, Dish would tell them "there are 'x' number of customers who are legally eligible for DNS' and NPS can determine if that's "worthwhile" to them. Of course, let's say that 300,000 customers are eligible. How many will consider switching to NPS vs leaving things as-is, switching to cable, etc ?? That's a hard number to come up with.... Then, NPS decides to make the deal or not. Addresses, phone numbers, names are NOT needed to do this. If they decide to proceed, they need to qualify customers on their own. They already had a contract with Decisionmark for just this ! Why do they need the add'l information from Dish ? Who's qualifying them, Dish or NPS/Decisionmark ?
I had to called Dish today hoping they could help me because the DNS people can't seem to get one of my receivers to take the DNS.
One did and one won't Weird.
Anyways I spoke to 3 different departments and I Asked them all if they provided our info to the DNS people and they all said yes.
And they said they are a partner of theres.
So, I just wanted to let you all know this info I found out.
One did and one won't Weird.
Anyways I spoke to 3 different departments and I Asked them all if they provided our info to the DNS people and they all said yes.
And they said they are a partner of theres.
So, I just wanted to let you all know this info I found out.
So let's get thius straight. Echostar got nailed for giving DNS to those who shoudn't have it yet NPS is suspposed to accept Echostar's accounting for a potential customer base. Sure.
And then somebody talks to a Dish CSR and believes what was said. Sure.
And then somebody talks to a Dish CSR and believes what was said. Sure.
I''m confused about the entire DNS "qualification" scheme. Maybe someone here can help. I live in the Outer Banks of North Carolina (zip 27959). The only TV station licensed here is WSKY-4, which has no network affiliation. The next closest station is the NPR station, WUND-2 in Columbia, NC, which is iffy at best with an outdoor antenna.
As for the big 4 networks, absolutely none of them are receivable with an outdoor antenna. The most powertful are in the Norfolk-Virginia Beach area. The CBS and NBC tramsmitters are in Suffolk, VA and do not come in with an outdoor antenna. The ABC is in Hampton, VA and might as well be in Richmond. The Fox channel is on UHF in Norfolk. The other area is Greenville, NC (CBS), Washington, NC (NBC), New Bern, NC (ABC) and I have no idea where Fox is in that marlket. None of the NC stations come in regularly with an outdoor antenna. We are a signal grade B or C for network TV.
Since DISH chose to call the Norfolk, VA channels as "local", it seems I don't qualify from NPS. My reading of the FCC rules, at least the older ones, seems to indicate that if I can't receive a Grade A signal from any OTA channel, I can get Distants. Yet this seems to not be the case since DISH "decided" for me that Norfolk, VA was local.
Frfom reading the threads,I know most of you are savvy on the arcane details. Am I hosed???
Thanks,
Russ Lay
Nags Head, NC
As for the big 4 networks, absolutely none of them are receivable with an outdoor antenna. The most powertful are in the Norfolk-Virginia Beach area. The CBS and NBC tramsmitters are in Suffolk, VA and do not come in with an outdoor antenna. The ABC is in Hampton, VA and might as well be in Richmond. The Fox channel is on UHF in Norfolk. The other area is Greenville, NC (CBS), Washington, NC (NBC), New Bern, NC (ABC) and I have no idea where Fox is in that marlket. None of the NC stations come in regularly with an outdoor antenna. We are a signal grade B or C for network TV.
Since DISH chose to call the Norfolk, VA channels as "local", it seems I don't qualify from NPS. My reading of the FCC rules, at least the older ones, seems to indicate that if I can't receive a Grade A signal from any OTA channel, I can get Distants. Yet this seems to not be the case since DISH "decided" for me that Norfolk, VA was local.
Frfom reading the threads,I know most of you are savvy on the arcane details. Am I hosed???
Thanks,
Russ Lay
Nags Head, NC
Grade B is considered reception. There are some odd rules it is like if everyone on your street had a 30 foot outdoor antenna properly aimed, and 50% of them could recieve a certain grade picture, you do not qualify for a distant of that network. I am sure someone will chime in with the exact rule, but essentially if you can get a snowy picture with a outdoor antenna on a poll you are disqualified.
Grade A & B contour
Here's the FCC definition. Have fun now after you have read it don't B at me.
dbu stands for decibels per microvolt.
Sec. 73.683 Field strength contours and presumptive determination of field
strength at individual locations.
(a) In the authorization of TV stations, two field strength contours are
considered. These are specified as Grade A and Grade B and indicate the
approximate extent of coverage over average terrain in the absence of
interference from other television stations. Under actual conditions, the
true coverage may vary greatly from these estimates because the terrain over
any specific path is expected to be different from the average terrain on
which the field strength charts were based. The required field strength, F
(50,50), in dB above one micro-volt per meter (dBu) for the Grade A and
Grade B contours are as follows:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grade A Grade B
(dBu) (dBu)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Channels 2-6.................................... 68 47
Channels 7-13................................... 71 56
Channels 14-69.................................. 74 64
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(b) It should be realized that the F (50,50) curves when used for Channels
14–69 are not based on measured data at distances beyond about 48.3
kilometers (30 miles). Theory would indicate that the field strengths for
Channels 14–69 should decrease more rapidly with distance beyond the horizon
than for Channels 2–6, and modification of the curves for Channels 14–69 may
be expected as a result of measurements to be made at a later date. For
these reasons, the curves should be used with appreciation of their
limitations in estimating levels of field strength. Further, the actual
extent of service will usually be less than indicated by these estimates due
to interference from other stations. Because of these factors, the predicted
field strength contours give no assurance of service to any specific
percentage of receiver locations within the distances indicated. In
licensing proceedings these variations will not be considered.
Here's the FCC definition. Have fun now after you have read it don't B at me.
dbu stands for decibels per microvolt.
Sec. 73.683 Field strength contours and presumptive determination of field
strength at individual locations.
(a) In the authorization of TV stations, two field strength contours are
considered. These are specified as Grade A and Grade B and indicate the
approximate extent of coverage over average terrain in the absence of
interference from other television stations. Under actual conditions, the
true coverage may vary greatly from these estimates because the terrain over
any specific path is expected to be different from the average terrain on
which the field strength charts were based. The required field strength, F
(50,50), in dB above one micro-volt per meter (dBu) for the Grade A and
Grade B contours are as follows:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grade A Grade B
(dBu) (dBu)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Channels 2-6.................................... 68 47
Channels 7-13................................... 71 56
Channels 14-69.................................. 74 64
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(b) It should be realized that the F (50,50) curves when used for Channels
14–69 are not based on measured data at distances beyond about 48.3
kilometers (30 miles). Theory would indicate that the field strengths for
Channels 14–69 should decrease more rapidly with distance beyond the horizon
than for Channels 2–6, and modification of the curves for Channels 14–69 may
be expected as a result of measurements to be made at a later date. For
these reasons, the curves should be used with appreciation of their
limitations in estimating levels of field strength. Further, the actual
extent of service will usually be less than indicated by these estimates due
to interference from other stations. Because of these factors, the predicted
field strength contours give no assurance of service to any specific
percentage of receiver locations within the distances indicated. In
licensing proceedings these variations will not be considered.
If E* didn't need the use of the 119 license for CBS "HD" in O&O areas then it doesn't need the license for analog transmission in O&O areas. The fact is that E* needed two thing to bring in DNS (analog or digital/HD) for the non-unserved population (1) a waiver from the local affiliate (which in this case is themselves) and (2) some mechanism to clear copyright - which is the 119 license unless you wish to argue that E*/CBS had been doing it on a work by work basis. I suppose it could be true that this service was unprofitable thus leading CBS/E* to drop it and I suppose this decision could have been coincident to the injunction deadline but whipping out Occam's Razor, it appears that, nope, CBS HD was in the same (sinking) boat as the Big 4 analog signals.
Your name is NOT on the list provided by Dish to NPS because you have access to "local" channels. Whether they're the locals you want or not is beside the point. You also can't choose to not take the locals from Dish and therefore be eligible for distant networks from NPS.
Thanks guys. Hall's answer is what I suspected; once they assign a "local" to your market, you're hosed! In looking over the more precise rules provided, I suspect if I put up an outdoor antenna, I might get the CBS signal as a Grade B (snowy) most days, and maybe the NBC from Norfolk. I am positive about 40% of the time there would be no reception. I am also positive that Fox and ABC would be impossible at any grade picture except on days where thermal and tropo ducting would allow the signal to come in, just like out of area FM stations. Too bad. Maybe one day the the Feds will become more libertarian about this. Seems to me people should be able to watch their hometown channels when they move, or their "second home" news (think NY snowbirds watching Ft Myers FL TV). One can dream.
Again, thanks for specific answers.
Again, thanks for specific answers.
Sorry, but this is not the methodology.
Plenty of people on the list provided by E* to NPS have access to LIL.
The list is simply E* Distant customers who did not already have LIL service from E*. (Perhaps this was the easiest way for E* to provide the list to NPS, by simply removing everyone who subscribed to LIL.)
This list was then processed by Decisionmark to remove people who were not legally qualified for Distants.
PS Those who used to discuss these issues years ago (long before this site existed), remember that many people were disqualified by mathematically being determined to receive a Grade B signal - even though they could not receive a watchable signal using an antenna. That was the reason for the appeal process whereby the local station was supposed to send someone out to test or else grant a waiver.
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Looks like NPS is starting to get it together. They made absolutely no mention of E* when I called today. The rep took my name and address and said they would call back. Said the system to verify address was not available and there would be a delay in verifying my address. Was told if I qualified they would need my smart card numbers. Was told it would take 7-10 days.
Your neighbors in your County "voted" by which stations they watched and the majority watched Norfolk - so that's what Nielsen assigned you to - not Dish, not the FCC, not the Government, not the NAB, not the local stations - your neighbors.
http://research.backchannelmedia.com/images/dma_large/544.gif
Long time lurker...first time poster. Hopefully I can help some other middle age Dad trying to make sure his West Coast kids can watch the 10PM programs at 7PM. It took me a week of trying..but I eventually succeeded. (Of course my wife and kids really wanted the networks I was not eligible for but maybe my waivers will come through!)
According to AntennaWeb.org, I can only receive CBS and NBC with an antenna. I got all 4 DNS from DISH prior to 12/1 as I had waivers for CBS & NBC from Dish. I had distants from Denver and New York as well as all LIL's. I called NPS (5 or 6 times) and each time they asked for my phone number and since I was not in their system they couldn't help me. When I called the last time, again they couldn't find me in their database. However, this time they volunteered to add me to the database.
Voila! I know qualified for Fox and ABC like AntennaWeb.org said. It took a few days and several more calls as well as providing the serial number and smart card numbers for all 6 of my receivers, but eventually I got the NPS service from Atlanta and San Francisco. (The picture quality from SF is very poor but it is better than nothing.)
As for NPS waivers, on my last call I was informed there was a $3 fee per waiver request. They took my credit card number and sent in waiver requests for NBC and CBS. I was also told I need to call back in a month as they have no infrastructure to contact me when the waivers are approved.
The people at NPS are friendly and are really trying hard. Be patient and friendly. They are learning on the job and I think I succeeded by helping them do their job. It appears to me they are frustrated that Dish customers are blaming them for the loss of DNS when they are actually the saviors.
According to AntennaWeb.org, I can only receive CBS and NBC with an antenna. I got all 4 DNS from DISH prior to 12/1 as I had waivers for CBS & NBC from Dish. I had distants from Denver and New York as well as all LIL's. I called NPS (5 or 6 times) and each time they asked for my phone number and since I was not in their system they couldn't help me. When I called the last time, again they couldn't find me in their database. However, this time they volunteered to add me to the database.
Voila! I know qualified for Fox and ABC like AntennaWeb.org said. It took a few days and several more calls as well as providing the serial number and smart card numbers for all 6 of my receivers, but eventually I got the NPS service from Atlanta and San Francisco. (The picture quality from SF is very poor but it is better than nothing.)
As for NPS waivers, on my last call I was informed there was a $3 fee per waiver request. They took my credit card number and sent in waiver requests for NBC and CBS. I was also told I need to call back in a month as they have no infrastructure to contact me when the waivers are approved.
The people at NPS are friendly and are really trying hard. Be patient and friendly. They are learning on the job and I think I succeeded by helping them do their job. It appears to me they are frustrated that Dish customers are blaming them for the loss of DNS when they are actually the saviors.
Your statement here is wrong and therefore misleading.
The correct information is in post #811.
I have seen otherwise on more than one occasion from your statement.
If you recvd LiL from E* then you are in group A from the chat and in chat Charle sadi group A is not elgible to recv DNS from any one. He later contridicts himself on this later in the chat when he is responding to an E-mail from a sub in macon.
To the best of my knowledge the only info E* gave NPS are those in group B (where LiL is offered but sub did not order) and group C those in white areas in a DMA where E* does not offer LiL.
If you belive the court filings from NPS it was to test the waters and to build thier database.
As far as I know noone who was recving LiL from E* has been able to get DNS from NPS, only those in B and C areas.
To the best of my knowledge the only info E* gave NPS are those in group B (where LiL is offered but sub did not order) and group C those in white areas in a DMA where E* does not offer LiL.
If you belive the court filings from NPS it was to test the waters and to build thier database.
As far as I know noone who was recving LiL from E* has been able to get DNS from NPS, only those in B and C areas.
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These seems unlikely to me, because in my area:
- None of the official DMA locals can be received by Antenna
- Some of the locals from a closer DMA have a repeater in our area which results in a Grade B Decisionmark result, and can be received by some people in our area with a big $200 antenna.
- All of the locals from the closer DMA are available on the local cable.
Nevertheless, the official DMA is the farther locals that no one wants and is in a different state. Can you say "politics" ?
