Decided to go from DiSEqC 1.2 to USAL, need a little help

[GreatFTA]

Radar, I decided to go USAL all the way on my Ultra. In my earlier thread on the subject of using D 1.2, you mentioned to me you didn't understand why I wasn't using USAL.
Well after spending many hours trying to program the Ultra, I thought I finally managed to get the D 1.2 to work. It did for a while but gradually I began to have problems with the settings. If I go to a satellite that is stored in the 1.2, it will go there, see the channel I watch, then the dish moves away some. I had to go to the TV Channel Antenna setup, reset that satellite and save again. Then the other satellites had to be reset again. The AZBoxes doesn't seem to do well with the D 1.2.
So I decided to go USAL. But I could use some help in doing so.
The Coolsat 8000 I was using was fine with the D1.2. Held the positions well. I do not want to slave the Ultra to it since I will be using the CS8000 with my other dish system.
I thought about getting a C/Ku LNBF for my 4DTV dish system but am waiting for the situation with the 4DTV to play itself out by end of the year.
Here is what going on, I use the USAL to move the dish to a satellite to program.
It would go there but doesn't see the satellite. When I use the D1.2 I would move like 4 degrees east to find the satellite. Then I program it in.
So this tell me that for me to use the USAL, I would have to move the dish from the mount east to about 4 degrees (while in the USAL Mode) until I get that signal and after tightening the mount, begin to adjust the dish up till I get the strongest signal then re tightening it.
Then I should be able to use USAL on other satellites with no problem
Am I right on this issue?
I will wait on your (or any of you members in this site) response to help me understand what to do.
Thanks in advance!

 

[GreatFTA]

BTW, I am using the Moteck SG2100 motor to move my Primestar 1.2 dish and it is great with the 4:2:0, 4:2:2, SD, HD, DVB-S and DVB-S2, 8PSK signals!

 

[hd fan]

4 degrees is too much. maybe your motor is forgetting the 0 or center position. if your motor is off by 4 degrees E or W in the true south direction you more likely will have issues in DiseqC as well. I would suggest to check the install of the motor. like I said before DiseqC 1.2 will improve signals for some signals even on an almost perfect motor install but USALS would be the way to go.

Now, just make sure your motor is properly installed. First make sure your motor knows where 0 is. send a Go to 0 command and check it goes exactly to 0 or the center. you can also send the motor to another sat and check it travels where it has to (some receivers like CS8100 tells you how many degrees in USALS). Using USALS drive the motor to your true south sat or the closest one. (mine is 79W since I live at 79.6W). MAke sure your motor latitude is exactly your latitude (well some users recommend also adjusting for declination , 0.6 in my case , but exact latitude is enough). Set the Dish to the proper elevation as per dishpointer.com. then rotate the whole motor/dish assembly until you get the signal. Then you can peak by adjusting the dish elevation or the whole assembly azimuth but in most cases provided the pole is plumb it should work accross the arc with USALS.

maybe close pictures of your motor install with level on pole will gives us an idea whats going on. also dispointer.com will show you the true south direction so you can compare in situ.

 

[GreatFTA]

HD, When I use the Go to 0, it goes exactly to the center (0). I recently moved the dish from one location to the present location, due to the LOS situation. I remember programming a certain satellite and when I did a blindscan on that satellite, it actually was scanning a different satellite located 4 degrees away from it.
I tried to adjust the dish by twisting it on the pole to about where the original satellite is located but ran into some problems with the signal and quality readings. So I put it back to the original spot marked on the pole and since then used the DiSEqC 1.2 to program the satellites. The dish is tracking the arc like it should, well, it appears to.
Tomorrow after Church I will attempt what you're suggesting in your post above. I will make markings throughout the dish so if it fail, I can set it back to where I was.
When I put up the poles for my 8FT and Primestar dish systems I made sure that the poles is very plumb. I checked the Primestar pole today and it is plumb, using the levels.
I really feel like that the mount of the dish on the pole is not quite on the True South satellite. My zip code is 38759 and it is 90.0W and 33.0N. So the True South satellite is 91W.

 

[GreatFTA]

Tomorrow I will take photos showing the pole and the levels it is on plus the dish mount set up by the owner's manual of the SG2100 motor.

 

[jsattv]

MrFTAMan, one of the things I am finding with AZbox & DisEqC 1.2 is if you go to realign the Dish ie go a few Ticks to Left or Right to fine Tune the Dish with my Actuator, & VBox III, after you fine tune and SAVE then Exit Out - the VBox III via Azbox has this really annoying habit of going Back to the Previous Setting, or Worse deciding to Randomly move East or West on its own!! I know of NO way to fix this - unless I'm doing something wrong, but after a Save Setting why does it move back to the Previous Setting? So I can understand your Frustration with DISEqC 1.2.

The only way I could Fix this yesterday was to fine Tune the Dish for the best Tp Signal, then REBOOT the Azbox on the Satellite that its currently receiving. At least this way it will hold & Store the Newest Saved Setting. This is indeed irritating and I can well understand why you are going over to try USALS. I wish someone could offer advice on why the Dish wants to go Back to its previous setting even after the NEW Setting is Saved!!

I have used USALS on my 1.0 Meter Dish with my HH-120 Motor (which is likely similar to your SG 2100 Motor) and I can say that the Tuning is extermely Precise for Ku Band. As you mentioned you need to punch in your Latitude & Longitude, but once you set up your South Satellite the Dish Should track well for all the rest of the Satellites to the East & West.

But for my 12 Footer I think I have no other choice but to try and use DISEqC 1.2. Also don't forget that Inclination can be way off on those smaller Dishes - on my Fortec Dish it was 10 degrees out! Hope some of this helps & let us know how it all works out.

 

[hd fan]

well you could use 89W or 91W (theoretically you could use any sat for USALS but the closer to TS the better or easier). the pole is plumb but is the motor also perfectly vertical? it is difficult to measure I know. I promised I would fully test USALS with mi AZp+ but have had no time and wont have for at least 2 more weeks. I still beleive that most USALS problems are install related rather than STB related.

It would be interesting to see if another user who lives closeby also has like a CS8100 kind of receiver that gives the USALS angle so you can check that your AZbox is sending the same angle and therefore driving the motor to the same location (mine for instance does not schedule a recording but no one else is having the same problem). yours could be miscalculating the USALS angles for some reason. Also , another user who lives closeby could tell you the USALS position for say 125W on their motor and you could check that number when using DiseqC 1.2, if it is the same then your install is ok and it has to be the USALS calculations then. well , dosent have to live closeby, lol.

I just reconnected my CS8100 to get those numbers. for say 90.0W and 33.0W coordinates.
125W at +39.5
103W at +14.8
91W at +1.1

89W at -1.1
79W at -12.5
61W -32.8

check that your AZbox when using the same coordinates drives the motor the same amount of degrees as I listed. from 0 or center to 89 or 91W it barely moves but you will hear it moving.

 

[AcWxRadar]

MrFTAMan,

I know that you will appreciate using USALS with your AZBox, once you have it set up completely and properly.

The first thing you must do is determine your absolute precise geographic coordinates and ensure that they are in decimal format and accurate to one decimal place (i.e 96.4°W, 41.6°N).

Select one of your satellites that is nearest your true south direction. Set up that satellite for USALS and enter your coordinates. Then command it to GO TO POSITION.

Then monitor one of the HOT TPs on that satellite and adjust your motor azimuth on the mast (east-west) to capture the signal. I often use my Coolsat 5K as a slave on the AZBox loop out and use its signal meter as it seems to be more quick to respond.

If this first satellite appears to be pretty strong (dish is peaked well) then go back to your menu and select USALS for all your other satellites. You should not have to reenter the coordinates - they should now already be there for every sat that you set to USALS (but you should check this to verify it).

You may now go and test your dish tracking. If your motor and dish are well aligned, they will all fall in place with no tweaking. Since you probably already have channels scanned in, just do some surfing and check the quality levels. If you detect that any satellites are weaker or won't come in at all, then it has to do with your mechanical settup of the dish and motor. It isn't perfectly aligned.

Ensure that you click the "DISABLE LIMITS" in the antenna setup menus. Sometimes I forget about this glitch with my AZBox and it trips me up. So, if you notice that your motor isn't driving at all, or only in one direction or not far enough. Check the limits and disable them, that is usually the cause.

NOTE: If you have any satellites in your list which are further than 59° away from your longitude coordinate, you will have to use DiSEqC 1.2 There is a limit to USALS at this point.

RADAR

 

[GreatFTA]

Thank you for your responses!
I was just getting started when the thunderstorms started to plow thru my area. So right now I can see a coupla satellites.
The biggest headache I have is the two brackets that holds the SG2100 in place. It is a booger to turn left or right to tune the dish. The SG2100 tend to twist when I try to turn the mount.
So I am working on a project to create a way to turn the entire mount easily. I will keep you posted on that project. In the meantime the programming of the Ultra will have to wait till I get this issue resolved.

 

[GreatFTA]

MrFTAMan,

I know that you will appreciate using USALS with your AZBox, once you have it set up completely and properly.

The first thing you must do is determine your absolute precise geographic coordinates and ensure that they are in decimal format and accurate to one decimal place (i.e 96.4°W, 41.6°N).

Select one of your satellites that is nearest your true south direction. Set up that satellite for USALS and enter your coordinates. Then command it to GO TO POSITION.

Then monitor one of the HOT TPs on that satellite and adjust your motor azimuth on the mast (east-west) to capture the signal. I often use my Coolsat 5K as a slave on the AZBox loop out and use its signal meter as it seems to be more quick to respond.

If this first satellite appears to be pretty strong (dish is peaked well) then go back to your menu and select USALS for all your other satellites. You should not have to reenter the coordinates - they should now already be there for every sat that you set to USALS (but you should check this to verify it).

You may now go and test your dish tracking. If your motor and dish are well aligned, they will all fall in place with no tweaking. Since you probably already have channels scanned in, just do some surfing and check the quality levels. If you detect that any satellites are weaker or won't come in at all, then it has to do with your mechanical settup of the dish and motor. It isn't perfectly aligned.

Ensure that you click the "DISABLE LIMITS" in the antenna setup menus. Sometimes I forget about this glitch with my AZBox and it trips me up. So, if you notice that your motor isn't driving at all, or only in one direction or not far enough. Check the limits and disable them, that is usually the cause.

NOTE: If you have any satellites in your list which are further than 59° away from your longitude coordinate, you will have to use DiSEqC 1.2 There is a limit to USALS at this point.

RADAR

Radar,you mentioned that I need to include the decimals as well. Am I understanding that? I usually put like 90W instead of 90.4W.

 

[AcWxRadar]

Radar,you mentioned that I need to include the decimals as well. Am I understanding that? I usually put like 90W instead of 90.4W.

MrFTAMan,

Yes, I enter the most accurate degree value that I can. Out to one decimal point for both geographic coordinates (LAT and LONG) and if the satellite's orbital position is listed as an odd value (like 116.8 for SatMex 5), I enter it that way, too and do not round it to 117.0.

For your geographic location coordinates, you will have to round up or down to the nearest tenth of a degree. That is all that the AZBox (or most boxes) will allow anyway. However, it does make a difference, sometimes that difference is very critical if you are trying to obtain a weaker signal.

I use Google Earth and fly right to my dish installation location and read off the coordinates from there and convert them to decimal format. This is probably overkill, but I like reducing the errors wherever possible. There are enough errors in the equipment that we use already, I don't like to compound them.

RADAR

 

[GreatFTA]

Radar, look at these pictures of the mount modified so I could go either east or west while adjusting the dish. I took the bracket of the SG2100 and done away with the U bolts that hold the SG2100 bracket to the pole. Turning the dish mount left or right was a pain in the butt and had to wrestle with the dish sliding down the pole while working on it. I took a old Primestar 1.2 mount cap and the bracket of the SG2100 and had them welded together. Thank goodness I have friends who would help me when needed, as one of them work at a muffler place.
Now, if I need to move the whole mount east or west, I loosen the three bolts at the pole mount and tighten them after adjusting.
No more wrestling with the U bolts and sliding mount!
The wind was so strong yesterday so I only got some of the satellites programmed using the USAL. Today is fixing plumbing day so hopefully I will finish fine tuning the dish.
Let me know what you think of the modified bracket. I may need to post the pictures in the FTA threads to help other FTAers.

 

[GreatFTA]

As I mentioned, I only got the dish in the general area of the satellites I am programming. The wind was so hard Sunday so I only manage to get these satellites:
125W, no quality strength.
123W, 11939V 14% Quality 70% Signal
113W, 12079H 48% Quality 79% Signal
105W, 12170H 84% Quality 83% Signal
103W, 12176V 70% Quality 83% Signal
101W, 11901V 100% Quality 84% Signal
99W 12028H 61% Quality 81% Signal
97W 12173V 68% Quality 81% Signal
95W 11776H 87% Quality 90% Signal
89W 11852V 27% Quality 72% Signal
As you can see I need to find tune a little bit more.
Keep you posted!

 

[AcWxRadar]

Radar, look at these pictures of the mount modified so I could go either east or west while adjusting the dish.....
.....No more wrestling with the U bolts and sliding mount!..... .....Let me know what you think of the modified bracket. I may need to post the pictures in the FTA threads to help other FTAers.

MrFTAMan,

I think that is an excellent modification! I might just incorporate the idea on mine, as a future improvement.

RADAR

 

[hd fan]

how can you guarantee that the motor was soldered parallel to the bracket? for plumbiness. I thought you posted integer values of your coordinates for privacy reasons otherwise would have told you to use the decimal values. I rather have a fortec star that fits perfectly but it is just my opinion.

 

[AcWxRadar]

how can you guarantee that the motor was soldered parallel to the bracket? for plumbiness. I thought you posted integer values of your coordinates for privacy reasons otherwise would have told you to use the decimal values. I rather have a fortec star that fits perfectly but it is just my opinion.

HD Fan,

I am not sure who who are addressing, but I will respond.

For brazing the bracket to the other tube or the Primestar mounting cap, and keeping it true and level... That would be quite simply accomplished. The V shaped convolutions will keep it in proper alignment with the new tube. If you use some temporary clamps and then make some tack welds, it will remain in place when you run a full weld bead. The critical point is that you will have to be a good welder or brazer to prevent overheating of the assemblies so that they don't warp on you.

As for mentioning your home's coordinates, I don't think anyone would or should be overly concerned about privacy invasion with this specific information. I could be wrong about how others feel, but I personally don't think that it is a matter of serious concern. For anyone who is concerned about privacy in this regard, it would be recommended that they make up coordinates for discussion purposes or use something generic for their examples (like 123.4°W Longitude and 56.7°N Latitude). Regardless of that issue, when you go to enter it into your USALS settings, it should be as accurate as it can be. Google Earth is really convenient to use to determine this accurately.

RADAR

 

[Cham]

Nice welding MrFtaMan!
Just wondering though... if maybe that dish is a bit heavy for the SG2100? I use the same motor on a 33" steel dish which seems to be a good combo. I have another system set up with an HH120 with a Fortec Star 4' dish and have had to do some repairing on that motor... as maybe the dish is too heavy. It would miss the satellite by a few degrees, there was a lock nut holding the sector gear to the mast that came loose causing the error. I added locktite thread sealant and re-torqued the lock nut; it's holding so far after a year. I have not had the SG-2100 apart so I don't know if the same problem would occur on yours or not. I'm sure Radar or others on the forum would know. Just a thought.
-C.

 

[GreatFTA]

Cham, the SG2100 handles my Primestar 1.2 quite well! I have been using this setup about 4 years now. The specs on the SG2100 states it can handle a dish up to 1.2. I had to do away with the original mounting and brackets. The guys on this forum really had great ideas on the mount of the 1.2.
Radar, I did rest the bracket middle groove on the pole mount cap, after carefully marking the center of the cap, I carefully allign the bracket center groove to the center marking and used a large C clamp to hold it in place until it is welded. When I took it to my friend to weld it, I made sure it was still in place and explained to him not to bump the bracket or clamp.
I will have the bracket/mount painted along with the pole.
So far I got the dish tracking the arc, but still need to fine tune. This set up makes it EASIER to move the Azimuth.

 

[AcWxRadar]

So far I got the dish tracking the arc, but still need to fine tune. This set up makes it EASIER to move the Azimuth.

I can certainly believe that! What would help even more, would be to devise a geared adjuster (something akin to a canopener) so that you could make really fine and measured azimuth adjustments. This would probably be overkill, but it would still be pretty cool.

When you get into fine tuning your setup, try to remember not to be too aggressive (or greedy if you will call it that). Don't try to peak the signal on any one satellite to its maximum. Just dial it in to a sufficient level and move on to another satellite. The "big trick" in mechanically aligning your dish and motor is to get as many satellites to line up as possible and average them and not to focus on peaking any one to perfection. It is a slow, methodical and calculated process.

When I state "SLOW" I don't mean that it takes forever. I mean that you have to think before you make an adjustment, don't just make an adjustment arbitrarily or just because it makes one sat peak higher. Pause and think of how the adjustment will affect the rest of the satellites on the arc. Too many people get "greedy" and try to peak the signal to the max on one satellite and they don't realize how much they are affecting the satellites on the other side of the arc.

I find it difficult to explain with mere words. I can see a mental image with attached footnotes ( ). I always think of a rainbow. Picture that and think of the center color band of the rainbow as the "perfect" track for the satellite dish to follow. If you tweak your dish to peak a satellite on the outer or top color band, then you will degrade or lose the signal from a satellite that is following the inner or bottom color band and vice versa.

Many people claim that the satellites are perfectly maintained in the arc, but this is not quite correct. Their statements are accurate in that the satellites remain where they are positioned, but they don't all line up perfectly across the arc. They are damned close, but when you try to track them ALL with a motorized earth based station, you can identify the discrepancies in their positions (relative to eachother). Splitting the difference between them all and following the "average" or center band of the "rainbow" is the goal that we want to achieve.

Yes sir. If you set up a single, fixed point dish aimed at one satellite, you can bring up a phenomenal quality level. But, if you try to do the same with a motorized dish, you will almost invariably kill many of the other satellite's signals.

Keep these thoughts happy in your mind when you are fine tuning your dish and motor and you will find happy results.

When you accomplish this task, you will be amazed at how great USALS works for you. You will be able to add new (Ku band) sats by simply entering them in the STBs memory and they will be spot-on! No more doubts about whether you drove the dish too many clicks to the east or west!

RADAR

 

[GreatFTA]

Radar, I am working on a gadget that can be used to set the elevation of the dish itself. If you look closely at the picture I posted on Post #12, you will see the threaded rod I rigged up to work the declination of the dish itselt. It is ok, but time consuming as adjusting the bolts and all. Where the threaded rod is up to the fiberglass dish itself the dish just rest there. When I am trying to adjust the rod to finetune the dish, the end at the dish surface tends to do some dancing. Not a good way to acurately set the declination.
I am trying to find a threaded rod that has a doodad on the end that allow the threaded rod to rotate. Something called Acme rod? All I would do is to loosen the bolts of the motor, take a socket wrench, turn the rod until I get the signal needed, then tighten the motor bolts again.