Does Dish downrez HD channels?

[goaliebob99]

Unless the whole thing about being unemployed is some bizarre lie, I think we can be confident that you do not work for Echostar. come on Bob. This is just silly. You have told your story about working for Echostar in the PAST many,many times.

You've got a point but The point remains in reguards to the quality of the post, Does it add to the forum or topic? The answer remains the same. NO. He/She only makes an assumption that you have to work for Echostar to have industry knowledge or see stuff that employees would see. Never mind the fact that maybe one would have good friends or family members who could have access to this stuff! With out know who or how, or wanting to oust people, I can only post what I know. I betcha bottom dollar if Scott said the same information that no one would second guess it, even if it was wrong. Its the nature of the beast. Just like how I have been screaming for the past 6 months that the ship is sinking with dish. And it continues too! If dish had positive numbers from last quarter, they would be touting them! I know that the numbers are allready in from last quarter they just havent been released. I think if they do have any it would be because the DTV transition, but my gut is telling me even with the DTV transition the churn will still be greater than gained subs.


I can allways see 6 months ahead of where dish is going even if they cant. The next 6 months if they continue to go the way they are, im sorry to say, dish will be broken. I see charlie selling in the next year or so. Especally if they loose the tivo case! People give me flack for what I say, its ok. Because I know more about that company looking from the outside in than anyone else including Scott! It's not rocket science. Honestly its quite easy to see. I know how to fix it. But if someone doesnt want it fixed than I can only sit on the sidelines. Im halfway considering emailing Charlie myself to share with him on how to fix the issues. : )

 

[TheKrell]

Simple mathematics will tell you the answer.

It would if I had the numbers in my head as you apparently do! But alas I do not. How about running them past us again? We can't search for this info on SG because every term we're talking about has been mentioned a million times since the last time you gave us some numbers (that I remember).

Jim has mentioned "8 to 10 HD channels per 36 MHz c-band transponder"and also mentioned a granularity of 4 channels. Note to others not digi: one must have care in conversion between MHz of bandwidth and bps, since e.g. 8 (or is it 16?) bits can fit on a single cycle using 8PSK. What do the c-band transponders (that Jim mentioned) use?

 

[vurbano]

How do you know that? Maybe I do, maybe I dont, but can you say 100 percent for sure that I dont! Do you know with out 100 percent of a shadow of a doubt!!!!!!!!!! Maybe I say I dont to keep out of trouble with E*! Or Maybe I really dont work for them? You Dont know and it's Really None of your buisness if I do or dont! Just to throw that out there with out no basis and really adds nothing of value to this thread!

Making up stories about secret software doesnt add to the thread either. Only your own dellusions.

 

[goaliebob99]

Making up stories about secret software doesnt add to the thread either. Only your own dellusions.

I Never said anything about secret software, only your imagination does! But back to reality!

Comparing both A and B there is no difference other than a slight in bit rate which was negotiable. Looking and analyzing the videos they both are at full resolution 1920 X 1080I Very hard to see the differences, which leads me to wonder if dish is only transporting in a lower resolution and having the receivers up convert back to the original format. Also, on the lower bit rate videos there was some macro blocking in the dark parts of the image, but they were so quick it was hard to detect. A true test would be on WWEHD during intros when there is high bit-rate and pyro going. Although this would be a debate that will go on for century's as different TV's and d equipment will handle pictures differently.

 

[jwgreen68]

You've got a point but The point remains in reguards to the quality of the post, Does it add to the forum or topic? The answer remains the same. NO. He/She only makes an assumption that you have to work for Echostar to have industry knowledge or see stuff that employees would see. Never mind the fact that maybe one would have good friends or family members who could have access to this stuff! With out know who or how, or wanting to oust people, I can only post what I know. I betcha bottom dollar if Scott said the same information that no one would second guess it, even if it was wrong. Its the nature of the beast. Just like how I have been screaming for the past 6 months that the ship is sinking with dish. And it continues too! If dish had positive numbers from last quarter, they would be touting them! I know that the numbers are allready in from last quarter they just havent been released. I think if they do have any it would be because the DTV transition, but my gut is telling me even with the DTV transition the churn will still be greater than gained subs.


I can allways see 6 months ahead of where dish is going even if they cant. The next 6 months if they continue to go the way they are, im sorry to say, dish will be broken. I see charlie selling in the next year or so. Especally if they loose the tivo case! People give me flack for what I say, its ok. Because I know more about that company looking from the outside in than anyone else including Scott! It's not rocket science. Honestly its quite easy to see. I know how to fix it. But if someone doesnt want it fixed than I can only sit on the sidelines. Im halfway considering emailing Charlie myself to share with him on how to fix the issues. : )

E* is a publicly traded company and is required to release quarterly earnings statements. Those statements are and will be released no matter how they look.

You can take this seriously: talk is cheap! It's always easier to look at someone elses problem and think,"Boy I could fix that if only I had a chance!" I wish everything in life was that simple. The NFL season starts in a few weeks, save your arm-chair quarterbacking till then.

Charlie Ergen is worth $10 Billion Bob. That's more money than you or me and probably 10 generations of our families will ever earn combined. He didn't make that much money by being stupid and not having a positive business model. Has he made mistakes? Sure he has. We all do. Hopefully we learn from our mistakes and move on. It's time to move on...

"You can always see 6 months ahead of where Dish is going?" Did you see that 6 months down the road that you would buy a new house and be out of work shortly thereafter? Tivo doesn't want to win a lawsuit against Dish. They want an offer to sell. This is all just bargaining and leverage on Tivo's part.

I believe the original topic was HD picture quality. I believe its a matter of opinion and personal taste. My best friend argues that his HD plasma is 10 times better than my HD LCD. Yet, when we watch them side-by-side, neither of us can tell the difference. But, that doesn't keep us from arguing about it.

 

[BuddyBoy]

It would if I had the numbers in my head as you apparently do! But alas I do not. How about running them past us again? We can't search for this info on SG because every term we're talking about has been mentioned a million times since the last time you gave us some numbers (that I remember).

Jim has mentioned "8 to 10 HD channels per 36 MHz c-band transponder"and also mentioned a granularity of 4 channels. Note to others not digi: one must have care in conversion between MHz of bandwidth and bps, since e.g. 8 (or is it 16?) bits can fit on a single cycle using 8PSK. What do the c-band transponders (that Jim mentioned) use?

You didn't take math in college, did you?

8PSK modulation uses eight points in its constellation diagram, therefore three bits are encoded per symbol. Not 8, not 16. 256QAM, which requires the S/N ratio of cable, encodes 8 bits per symbol. Notice the pattern? Duh.

From Lyngsat:

8PSK modulation
21.5 megasymbols per second
2/3 Viterbi forward error correction
188/204 Reed-Solomon error correction

3 * 21.5 * 2/3 * 188/204 = 39.6Mbits/sec

I noticed during practice for the Edmonton IndyCar race that PQ on Versus really sucked. Well, looking at transponder 29 on 129 tells the story: Seven(!) HD channels on that transponder. I pulled the recording off my 211. After editing out the commercials, the 48 minute program averaged 7.0Mbits/sec.

 

[BuddyBoy]

Could you also please check CNN, TNT, Discovery HD Theater and History Channel? Also, when you're taking the readings are you on eastern or western arc or both? Thanks

Western arc.

All are 1440x1080i except History Channel, which is 1280x720p.

Think about this: if resolution is such an important factor in determining PQ, why is it that you never hear anyone complaing that "Lost" on ABC or "Fringe" on Fox received OTA have crappy PQ because they're "only" 1280x720. Please don't claim 60p is a factor, all these shows are shot at 24fps.

 

[whatchel1]

VBR

You didn't take math in college, did you?

8PSK modulation uses eight points in its constellation diagram, therefore three bits are encoded per symbol. Not 8, not 16. 256QAM, which requires the S/N ratio of cable, encodes 8 bits per symbol. Notice the pattern? Duh.

From Lyngsat:

8PSK modulation
21.5 megasymbols per second
2/3 Viterbi forward error correction
188/204 Reed-Solomon error correction

3 * 21.5 * 2/3 * 188/204 = 39.6Mbits/sec

I noticed during practice for the Edmonton IndyCar race that PQ on Versus really sucked. Well, looking at transponder 29 on 129 tells the story: Seven(!) HD channels on that transponder. I pulled the recording off my 211. After editing out the commercials, the 48 minute program averaged 7.0Mbits/sec.

The Harmonic encoders that are used for the channels are VBR units. It isn't static it shifts bits from stream to stream as necessary. So one show may need 10 while another on needs 6 while another 5 so if it is shifting there are times when VS is getting the 10 it needs while the others are cutting back. You are using as you say an average to know what is really going on you would have to go thru the entire show and check what bit rate is constantly going on to find out how much is where. There are going to be times when fast movement will need all it can get and then when talking heads are up it just needs 4 per etc,etc. I did enjoy all the math that you used, shows you know something about what is going on. Do all the car races look bad? If so then there is a problem if not it could have been what was coming from the provider also.

 

[loves2watch]

Western arc.

All are 1440x1080i except History Channel, which is 1280x720p.

Think about this: if resolution is such an important factor in determining PQ, why is it that you never hear anyone complaing that "Lost" on ABC or "Fringe" on Fox received OTA have crappy PQ because they're "only" 1280x720. Please don't claim 60p is a factor, all these shows are shot at 24fps.

Are you sure it's not 1920x1080i?

 

[rad]

Western arc.

All are 1440x1080i except History Channel, which is 1280x720p.

Think about this: if resolution is such an important factor in determining PQ, why is it that you never hear anyone complaing that "Lost" on ABC or "Fringe" on Fox received OTA have crappy PQ because they're "only" 1280x720. Please don't claim 60p is a factor, all these shows are shot at 24fps.

Thanks for checking this.

I agree that there's a number of factors that go into PQ, it's not resolution alone. I was just curious because of this one person on another site that said E* downrezzes only 3 channels and wanted to get some confirmation on that being true or not.

On a side note, I do find it sort of funny that a number of E* folks now say it doesn't matter what the resolution is if you're happy with the picture. Kind of what the D* folks were saying when we lived through HD-Lite and were told we're out of our minds that we were happy with the PQ.

 

[TheKrell]

You didn't take math in college, did you?

I would appreciate it if you would at least try a little to be civil and not hurl abuse every chance you get. You have called me names (a clown), insulted my intelligence repeatedly, and now insulted my education. Is this really necessary in order to share your knowledge or correct my mistakes?

(In the above case so uncharitably dismissed by BubbaBoy, I focused on the conversion between MHz and bps and then blundered in my conversion between symbols and bits. Argh! Mistakes happen.)

 

[gadgtfreek]

You didn't take math in college, did you?

8PSK modulation uses eight points in its constellation diagram, therefore three bits are encoded per symbol. Not 8, not 16. 256QAM, which requires the S/N ratio of cable, encodes 8 bits per symbol. Notice the pattern? Duh.

From Lyngsat:

8PSK modulation
21.5 megasymbols per second
2/3 Viterbi forward error correction
188/204 Reed-Solomon error correction

3 * 21.5 * 2/3 * 188/204 = 39.6Mbits/sec

I noticed during practice for the Edmonton IndyCar race that PQ on Versus really sucked. Well, looking at transponder 29 on 129 tells the story: Seven(!) HD channels on that transponder. I pulled the recording off my 211. After editing out the commercials, the 48 minute program averaged 7.0Mbits/sec.

Im really surprised that it still avg'd 7.0mbs/s with 7 channels on the tp. One would think, at that bitrate, PQ would be pretty good.

 

[gadgtfreek]

Did anyone else get Dfergie's side by side videos??

I can say, that on my 50" tv, I could not tell a difference between directv and dish.

 

[peano]

I gave DIRECTV the SLIGHT edge in pq. I gave DISH a HUGE edge in tech and having the best dvr in the industry. The Directv hd dvr hr 21 was no comparison to the 722 dvr.

My experience is similar. Directv has slightly better HD PQ, but their DVRs are such junk that you quickly forget about PQ while struggling to get an HR to actually respond to the remote.

 

[Ronnie-]

Did anyone else get Dfergie's side by side videos??

I can say, that on my 50" tv, I could not tell a difference between directv and dish.

Sorry, have not had a chance to take a look yet

 

[Hemi 6.1]

but their DVRs are such junk that you quickly forget about PQ while struggling to get an HR to actually respond to the remote.

:up:up:up

 

[jerryez]

Honestly its quite easy to see. I know how to fix it. But if someone doesnt want it fixed than I can only sit on the sidelines. Im halfway considering emailing Charlie myself to share with him on how to fix the issues. : )

Dish make a profit every quarter, even if they are losing subs. Charlie is a billionaire, so what is your net worth, that makes you qualified to give Charlie advice, Bob.

 

[goaliebob99]

E* is a publicly traded company and is required to release quarterly earnings statements. Those statements are and will be released no matter how they look.

You can take this seriously: talk is cheap! It's always easier to look at someone elses problem and think,"Boy I could fix that if only I had a chance!" I wish everything in life was that simple. The NFL season starts in a few weeks, save your arm-chair quarterbacking till then.

Charlie Ergen is worth $10 Billion Bob. That's more money than you or me and probably 10 generations of our families will ever earn combined. He didn't make that much money by being stupid and not having a positive business model. Has he made mistakes? Sure he has. We all do. Hopefully we learn from our mistakes and move on. It's time to move on...

"You can always see 6 months ahead of where Dish is going?" Did you see that 6 months down the road that you would buy a new house and be out of work shortly thereafter? Tivo doesn't want to win a lawsuit against Dish. They want an offer to sell. This is all just bargaining and leverage on Tivo's part.

I believe the original topic was HD picture quality. I believe its a matter of opinion and personal taste. My best friend argues that his HD plasma is 10 times better than my HD LCD. Yet, when we watch them side-by-side, neither of us can tell the difference. But, that doesn't keep us from arguing about it.

Yea your right, But it doesn't mean that one mistake couldn't rune it all . Speaking of NFL I'm ready! As far as seeing 6 months ahead, yes I had a hunch but was being lead elsewhere, as the information at hand was very different wich lead me down the path I went. Also the decision to let me go was a very very last minute. In fact, they didn't even ask for my bosses and my bosses bosses opinion. All they did was look at numbers and see where they could cut, and obviously they cut the new guy. What was even funnier was I was scheduled to do our web updates for the new website and they also had me lined up to do server swap outs that week as well as rebuilding our exchange server to the new company's domain. So when I was let go, it was something that was literally out of the blue.

In this case unless dish does something out of the blue, like what happened to me, then the point is still valid! Also, I dont want to be an armchair quaterback, I want to be in the trenches doing it making dish better. But untill then, The only position I can take is the armchair quarterback!

Dish make a profit every quarter, even if they are losing subs. Charlie is a billionaire, so what is your net worth, that makes you qualified to give Charlie advice, Bob.

The reason for the profit is because dish wasnt spending money aquireing subs, nore were they spening any money to keep subs. When your not spending money your making a profit, as there is a cost assocated to keep subs as well as aquire new ones.

 

[gadgtfreek]

Compared TNTHD and ESPNHD recordings:

1 hour of Raising the bar in HD 2.2 gb's
1 hour of Dark Blue in HD 2.4 gb's
1 hour of Nascar on ESPN 3.6 gb's

 

[BuddyBoy]

Are you sure it's not 1920x1080i?

Which, History Channel, or Fox and ABC?

All the Fox (FX, Speed, etc) and ABC (ESPN, Disney) family of stations are 720p.