DTV setup for a large house

[Tired Techie]

I am not a Direct TV (DTV) customer but am trying to help an existing long-term Direct TV Satellite customer that is not tech savvy.

I believe they first went to DTV as they had the best sports offerings. They subscribed to NFL, NBA, MLB, and a Sports package.

They moved five years ago, so the satellite dish is five years old.

Last year I helped them get set up with the NFL Sunday Ticket + RedZone from YouTube.

They are in a large house now, with lots of TV’s. They have a mixed bag of services but can only watch one DTV channel at a time, although it can be displayed on multiple TVs using an existing Control4 system, that they hate. Also, being a large house, that was already wired with CAT6, they would prefer to not use WiFi for TV services.

I am exploring alternative configurations that remove Control4 from the equation and get them multiple DTV channels simultaneously.

Option 1) Stay on DTV satellite
Let’s assume the satellite dish is current. If not, it will be upgraded as needed.

My understanding is that the dish delivers channels via coax to either a Genie (HR54), or a Genie 2 (HS17).

The house is wired with CAT6, but not coax. I have been told that they can put Gemini boxes at each TV and then have each TV on a different channel (or streaming app), if desired. And that older, or non-tech savvy people generally like the “cable-box” feel of the Gemini and its remote. (Cost $7/mo + $49/one-time fee for each Gemini.)

I have been told that the Gemini can be connected to the Genie (or Genie 2) with CAT6 directly, and no coax. Others have said DTV does not support CAT6 and you need coax + DECA to connect the Gemini using the ethernet port. Which is correct?

Also, the Genie 2 only supports eight Gemini boxes, and seven simultaneous connections. If you want more TVs, you cannot add a second Genie 2. How would you connect TVs 9 and 10?

I was also told (by a DTV salesperson) that the Gemini doesn’t work well with 4K. For 4K, they recommended a stand-alone HD receiver. Is this correct? And does this require a coax run?

I was also told that if the satellite is impacted by weather, that the system would be able to use the internet to continue receiving the channels. But only three simultaneous streams from the internet.

Option 2) DTV Streaming

I was told Streaming has all the same programming, except no Music station. That is not an issue.

Aside from not needing a dish on the roof, would the boxes and wires in the house be the same?

Is the total experience the same, better, or worse?

If they put in a fiber internet connection, would there be any latency issues as compared to the satellite?

Option 3) DTV Internet

Is this different that Option 2 – DTV Streaming?


Is DTV really the best service provider for a non-tech savvy person? They are familiar with the cable-box paradigm – giving them a remote with channel numbers, a channel guide, and then the modern addition of apps (e.g. Netflix, Prime, YouTube). However, it appears that since NFL moved to YouTube, and all the other sports packages can be licensed without DTV, what is the DTV advantage, if any?

I know there are a lot of questions above. And that is after many hours of reading forums, DTV and other websites, and talking to salespeople. But there is nothing like the actual people that have and use the system to tell it like it is. Your help is very much appreciated. Thank you.

 

[b4pjoe]

The easiest path would be the HS17 which does not connect to a TV. You would need coax from the dish to the HS17. You use clients at each TV and they can be wired or wireless. Wired clients need coax. You can have 8 clients on the HS17 but can only watch 7 at a time. As far as the Gemini DIRECTV shows the setup for wired is with coax to a DECA and an Ethernet cable to the Gemini. Wireless setup for the Gemini would connect wireless to the HS17 but they would all have to close enough to the HS17. There are other wireless clients you could use instead of the Gemini but none are 4K. I am not sure if the HS17 can use 7 Geminis on the HS17. I know there were reports of not being able to use more than one on the HR54 at one point. Not sure if that was ever fixed or if it applied to the HS17 also.

4K via the Gemini uses HDR (no Dolby Vision). Looks great but you can only watch DIRECTV 4K from 2 clients at a time. The Gemini can have streaming apps installed on it. Other clients cannot. If you need more than 7 TV you can also install the DIRECTV app on some smart TV’s or on a Roku, Fire TV device, Apple TV etc…but it depends on what you are trying to watch as the app has most of the channels that are on satellite but not everything. I think you have 3 streams using the app but with the app there aren’t dedicated remotes with channel numbers.

DIRECTV via Internet and Stream are the same service. Stream is a BYOD (Bring Your Own Device). With DIRECT via Internet you can have the DIRECTV devices ($7.00 per month for each device) with the remote with channel numbers. It also has a 2 year contract, Advanced Receiver Service fee of $15 per month and RSN fees that can be as high as $15.99 per month. The Stream service has no contract or these extra fees.

 

[John2021]

the wired gemini still uses the coax from an old mini and converts it into eithernet. how many t.v.s are we talking about hooking up the HS-17 can handle 8 tvs but can only stream 7 at once

 

[Tired Techie]

There are ten TV's in the house, but only seven would need the cable-box experience. The other three can use the DTV app. However, if the HS17 can only support two TV's at 4K, that is not so great as this is a sports oriented house. And if the Gemini's need coax, that doesn't work at all.

I am reluctant to suggest they use wireless Geminis, even though there are access points throughout the house, as the wifi is so much less reliable than hard wired connections.

Can anyone recommend a DTV solution for a large house that supports 4K with CAT6 instead of coax? Or are we better off looking at other services and technologies?

Thanks.

 

[John2021]

There are ten TV's in the house, but only seven would need the cable-box experience. The other three can use the DTV app. However, if the HS17 can only support two TV's at 4K, that is not so great as this is a sports oriented house. And if the Gemini's need coax, that doesn't work at all.

I am reluctant to suggest they use wireless Geminis, even though there are access points throughout the house, as the wifi is so much less reliable than hard wired connections.

Can anyone recommend a DTV solution for a large house that supports 4K with CAT6 instead of coax? Or are we better off looking at other services and technologies?

Thanks.

you could do 7 boxes and the rest on the dtv app. seems dtv is also charging for installs now the coax to the gemini comes from the splitter from the dish. you can place the HS-17 where ever you want we have ours in the media room in a closet hardwired to our roter. id'e take the hardwired over the wireless geminis for smoother transport and dont have to worry about it dropping out from loss of wifi

 

[b4pjoe]

There are ten TV's in the house, but only seven would need the cable-box experience. The other three can use the DTV app. However, if the HS17 can only support two TV's at 4K, that is not so great as this is a sports oriented house. And if the Gemini's need coax, that doesn't work at all.

I am reluctant to suggest they use wireless Geminis, even though there are access points throughout the house, as the wifi is so much less reliable than hard wired connections.

Can anyone recommend a DTV solution for a large house that supports 4K with CAT6 instead of coax? Or are we better off looking at other services and technologies?

Thanks.

The limit on having 2 4K's at once isn't something that would be a problem most of the time as DIRECTV rarely has more than two sports events in 4K at the same time. Unless you are wanting to be able to watch the same event on more than one TV at a time. The 2 4K limit only applies to DIRECTV programming so if you are watching a streaming app that is showing 4K events the limit is only what your internet service is.

DIRECTV doesn't officially support this but once a Gemini is setup you can remove it from the DECA and use Ethernet only. (HS17 wired ethernet to your local networks and then Gemini wired ethernet to your local network) I think you do have to have the DECA to setup the Gemini as a client to the server (HS17) or you may be able to set it up wireless and then change it over to Ethernet after the setup is complete. But you are most likely on your own if you have problems with it. DIRECTV install instructions only say use the DECA or wireless. I also wonder if DIRECTV even supports all 7 clients being Gemini's.

 

[prushing]

The Control4 needs to be fixed so they don't even know it's there or gotten rid of like you said. If they aren't tech savoy, that was a terrible decision to install. FYI, you will most likely have to pay a dealer to make changes. It's a great system if you have a good dealer but without that, people waste their money on it. I would look at the cost to fix it first as they probably already paid for a ton of hardware.

With that many TVs, will they ever be on at the same time? You need to start with that. If the TVs aren't on at the same time, it doesn't really matter how many there are. Do the TVs need to be in sync if they are showing the same channel/program?

This is what I would do.

1. Stay with DTV
   
   1. Fix Control4 - their limitation to watching 1 channel is because of a stupid setup. They should have up to 8 DTV clients sitting in the closet (or wherever they are) and then using HDMI to ethernet to send the signal to the TVs. Then make sure the remotes are able to connect or fix that.
      1. You can limit the # of boxes, send the same signal to multiple TVs, etc.
   2. Remove Control4 and use DTV clients at each location - you should be able to use wired setup and isolate traffic to its own switch (assuming this house has a network closet with Control4 installed it should)
      1. Connect all the clients and HS17 to the new switch, to keep it off the rest of the network traffic
2. Go to Streaming
   
   1. Fix Control4 - you can setup streaming similar and then send the same signal to any TV, multiple, etc
      1. Have as many streaming devices as you need, same setup needed to send signals to TVs
   2. Remove Control4 devices and use streaming devices at each TV

 

[Tired Techie]

The Control4 system has become persona non grata due to the local tech’s inability to keep it up and functioning on a regular basis. I don’t think they have the appetite to get a new company in to either reverse engineer what is undoubtedly spaghetti code programming, or start rebuilding from scratch. They are willing to keep Control4 in place for other services, but want the TVs decoupled from it.

It really is a shame, because solution 1.1 that prushing suggested, keeping the Gemini boxes in the closet with the HS17 solves the issue with coax - install short runs from the HS17 to each Gemini. Then take hdmi-to-ethernet out the back of the Gemini and feed it to Control4, which talks to the TVs over CAT6. However, I suspect the Gemini remotes, which are now far away from the Geminis, would not work.

We could implement a hybrid of 1.1, and have the Geminis in the closet, but remove Control4 from the equation. Take the hdmi-to-ethernet from the back of the Geminis and connect it directly to the CAT6 cables that currently run from the Control4 to the TVs. It still leaves us with the Gemini remotes far away from the Geminis. Unless they are using wifi, which seems unlikely, they probably will not be able to reach the Geminis.

Solution 1.2 (ethernet from HS17 to Gemini) is what I am hoping for. Although it is not supported by DTV and could break in the future.

As to the HS17 only having two 4K streams simultaneously, this could be an issue, but might not be a huge deal. Yes, there is a desire to have the games on in multiple (i.e. four) rooms, and even switch channels during halftime, breaks, or when it is a blowout. But I suspect the 1080 might look “good enough”, especially on the newer TVs with better upscaling.

And what about Streaming – solution 2.2? With a new high speed fiber connection (they just wired the street, so all the gear is brand new) can anyone speak to the quality and experience vs. Satellite? Would we be able to use the Geminis over ethernet (probably would work, but not supported)? And is there still a limit on the number of 4K streams from DTV Streaming? I suspect that was a function of the HS17, but could be throttled by DTV Streaming as well.

I truly appreciate everyone taking the time to help me out with this.

Thanks much.

 

[b4pjoe]

Unless they are using wifi, which seems unlikely, they probably will not be able to reach the Geminis.

Gemini remotes are bluetooth.

And what about Streaming – solution 2.2? With a new high speed fiber connection (they just wired the street, so all the gear is brand new) can anyone speak to the quality and experience vs. Satellite? Would we be able to use the Geminis over ethernet (probably would work, but not supported)? And is there still a limit on the number of 4K streams from DTV Streaming? I suspect that was a function of the HS17, but could be throttled by DTV Streaming as well.

Yes Geminis on the streaming service can be ethernet and the streaming service I believe either has 20 or unlimited streams in the home. DIRECTV says you need at least 8 mbps for each stream so fiber gigabit would work fine. As far as number of 4K streams on the streaming service I am not sure if they have a limit on that or not. Tried doing a google search but came up empty for number of simultaneous 4K streams you can do.

Keep in mind they have 2 different streaming services. DIRECTV via Internet and DIRECTV Stream. Click on each link to see the difference between the two.

 

[prushing]

The Control4 system has become persona non grata due to the local tech’s inability to keep it up and functioning on a regular basis. I don’t think they have the appetite to get a new company in to either reverse engineer what is undoubtedly spaghetti code programming, or start rebuilding from scratch. They are willing to keep Control4 in place for other services, but want the TVs decoupled from it.

It really is a shame, because solution 1.1 that prushing suggested, keeping the Gemini boxes in the closet with the HS17 solves the issue with coax - install short runs from the HS17 to each Gemini. Then take hdmi-to-ethernet out the back of the Gemini and feed it to Control4, which talks to the TVs over CAT6. However, I suspect the Gemini remotes, which are now far away from the Geminis, would not work.

We could implement a hybrid of 1.1, and have the Geminis in the closet, but remove Control4 from the equation. Take the hdmi-to-ethernet from the back of the Geminis and connect it directly to the CAT6 cables that currently run from the Control4 to the TVs. It still leaves us with the Gemini remotes far away from the Geminis. Unless they are using wifi, which seems unlikely, they probably will not be able to reach the Geminis.

Solution 1.2 (ethernet from HS17 to Gemini) is what I am hoping for. Although it is not supported by DTV and could break in the future.

As to the HS17 only having two 4K streams simultaneously, this could be an issue, but might not be a huge deal. Yes, there is a desire to have the games on in multiple (i.e. four) rooms, and even switch channels during halftime, breaks, or when it is a blowout. But I suspect the 1080 might look “good enough”, especially on the newer TVs with better upscaling.

And what about Streaming – solution 2.2? With a new high speed fiber connection (they just wired the street, so all the gear is brand new) can anyone speak to the quality and experience vs. Satellite? Would we be able to use the Geminis over ethernet (probably would work, but not supported)? And is there still a limit on the number of 4K streams from DTV Streaming? I suspect that was a function of the HS17, but could be throttled by DTV Streaming as well.

I truly appreciate everyone taking the time to help me out with this.

Thanks much.

For the remotes, they are all bluetooth, IP, or IR, so I'm sure you can make something work.

I know my 2 gemini show up in Home Assistant as TV remotes but I haven't configured them. That way you can keep the closet design without needing control4. Otherwise control4 will work with them also but you would definitely need a good dealer. (It's why I never installed it and went more open source).

 

[KyL416]

The 4K channels are available with streaming, however if the event they want to watch is bumped to the CINE4K channels 107 and 108, it will only be available with satellite. The 4K events from NESN (Red Sox/Bruins) and Spectrum SportsNet LA (Dodgers) are only available in market for streaming, out of market satellite customers can get those 4K events via satellite with Extra Innings or Center Ice.

The 4K streams are also very bandwidth demanding, like they can spike to 30+ Mbps at times, which might result in wifi connected devices dipping to HD or lower quality if the WIFI network is congested, qos/"fairness" throttling kicks in on the router, or the device is too far away from the nearest hotspot.

For satellite customers there is a limit to 3 concurrent streams with the app for all channels. For Stream/Internet customers most channels have no limit for in home streaming, however Starz, NHL Network and all of the FOX channels including BTN have a 3 stream limit.

EDIT: 9/21 was an example of them needing to dip into the CINE4K channels
105 LIVE4K:
12:30pm Crystal Palace vs Man United (NBC)
3:30pm Miami Redhawks vs Notre Dame Fighting Irish (NBC)
9pm Colorado Rockies vs LA Dodgers (SportsNet LA)

106 LIVE4K2:
10am Big Noon Kickoff (FOX)
12pm Marshall Thundering Herd vs Ohio State Buckeyes (FOX)
4pm Minnesota Twins vs Boston Red Sox (NESN)
7:30pm Tennessee Volunteers vs Oklahoma Sooners (ESPN)

108 CINE4K:
4pm Utah Utes vs Oklahoma State Cowboys (FOX)

 

[slice1900]

The limit on having 2 4K's at once isn't something that would be a problem most of the time as DIRECTV rarely has more than two sports events in 4K at the same time.

Can you watch 4K on three clients if they're all on the same channel? Like you say, never more than two different things on at once so you'd never run into that limit unless each client counted as one regardless of any overlap on what is being watched.

I do know you watch 4K on every client that supports it, you'd just have to turn off the others to keep under the limit of 2.

Dunno why Directv doesn't address that, that's purely a software limit that has nothing to do with the capabilities of either the HS17 or the clients. Its like the "we don't support OTA on the HS17" thing, which they let happen for years until they decided it was worth a programmer adding the necessary software to enable it.

 

[b4pjoe]

Can you watch 4K on three clients if they're all on the same channel? Like you say, never more than two different things on at once so you'd never run into that limit unless each client counted as one regardless of any overlap on what is being watched.

I do know you watch 4K on every client that supports it, you'd just have to turn off the others to keep under the limit of 2.

Dunno why Directv doesn't address that, that's purely a software limit that has nothing to do with the capabilities of either the HS17 or the clients. Its like the "we don't support OTA on the HS17" thing, which they let happen for years until they decided it was worth a programmer adding the necessary software to enable it.

They might have addressed it without telling anyone. I have an HR54, C61K, and a Gemini. According to DIRECTV I should only be able to watch one 4K channel at a time but I can watch 4K on both the C61K and the Gemini at the same time. Either both on the same channel or both watching different 4K channels.

 

[Tired Techie]

[ Reminder: I only know about DTV from reading online, not from an actual install ]

What about putting the Genie-2 (HS17) and seven DECAs in the communications closet. My understanding is the DECAs convert from coax to ethernet. So all the coax needs are satisfied in the closet. Then I take the ethernet/CAT6 output from each DECA and run it out of the closet to the Geminis that are located at each TV. The remote and Gemini are near each other, so they will communicate.
Any concerns with this config?

If that would work, then how would each Gemini also be able to get Internet, for Netflix / Hulu / Max?
Are the coax side of the DECAs plugged into a SWM?
And the HS17, which is plugged into my LAN for an Internet connection, is also plugged into the SWM?
So, the Internet passes through the HS17 to the SWM to all the DECAs to the Geminis?

 

[prushing]

[ Reminder: I only know about DTV from reading online, not from an actual install ]

What about putting the Genie-2 (HS17) and seven DECAs in the communications closet. My understanding is the DECAs convert from coax to ethernet. So all the coax needs are satisfied in the closet. Then I take the ethernet/CAT6 output from each DECA and run it out of the closet to the Geminis that are located at each TV. The remote and Gemini are near each other, so they will communicate.
Any concerns with this config?

If that would work, then how would each Gemini also be able to get Internet, for Netflix / Hulu / Max?
Are the coax side of the DECAs plugged into a SWM?
And the HS17, which is plugged into my LAN for an Internet connection, is also plugged into the SWM?
So, the Internet passes through the HS17 to the SWM to all the DECAs to the Geminis?

No matter what, Gemini will use the internet from the HS17. I think you could do what you are thinking as long as you power them. You also don't need the coax at all. An unsupported setup is to just connect them all to a switch and the HS17.

If they want the best possible picture, don't use Gemini for any apps. There is limited support for the apps and higher quality. I would run the apps on an external device. This is not a new device, it is years old already. I don't use mine for anything other than DTV, most streaming is available in Dolby Vision so not going to use this for that.

https://www.directv.com/support/article/000091381

 

[savarese04]

[ Reminder: I only know about DTV from reading online, not from an actual install ]

What about putting the Genie-2 (HS17) and seven DECAs in the communications closet. My understanding is the DECAs convert from coax to ethernet. So all the coax needs are satisfied in the closet. Then I take the ethernet/CAT6 output from each DECA and run it out of the closet to the Geminis that are located at each TV. The remote and Gemini are near each other, so they will communicate.
Any concerns with this config?

If that would work, then how would each Gemini also be able to get Internet, for Netflix / Hulu / Max?
Are the coax side of the DECAs plugged into a SWM?
And the HS17, which is plugged into my LAN for an Internet connection, is also plugged into the SWM?
So, the Internet passes through the HS17 to the SWM to all the DECAs to the Geminis?

you shouldn't need the DECAs because the HS17 takes the ethernet signal and passes it over coax for all the downstream devices. all you need to do is make sure all your receivers are genie mini/gemini wired on coax. no DECAs needed because those boxes can work with the HS17

 

[Tom Speer]

My experience is only with DIRECTV satellite, and in that case the number of simultaneous TV's that can be watching is limited mostly by the processing power and number of satellite tuners in the Genie server. Researching on the Internet, I can find no limit to the number of Gemini AIR devices (this smaller 2nd generation Gemini is what they sell to DirecTV via Internet customers.) You would need a very high bandwidth Internet connection for that many streams.

As far as connecting a number of Geminis to a Genie server, You need to keep the Genie to Client traffic off your regular LAN, that is why they only allow the coax connection. The audio video streams are coming from the server to the client using some ethernet protocols for that traffic that don't mix well with ordinary LAN traffic. The only wireless option supported by the Geminis is a connection to a coax connected Wireless Video Bridge (WVB). A HS17 has a built in WVB. You can't use your existing WiFI Access Points for that, only for the Internet traffic.

For this size installation, if you want the cable like interface and channel numbers from the remote, a DIRECTV via Internet solution seems like the best choice, if they let you order and configure that many Gemini AIR devices.

 

[John2021]

The deca adapter will also need power from a micro usb cable from the back of the Gemini to the deca adapter.

 

[slice1900]

The deca adapter will also need power from a micro usb cable from the back of the Gemini to the deca adapter.

You can use anything sort of USB power supply for it, it doesn't have to be powered by Directv equipment.

Though as stated, you don't need a DECA at all. The only reason you would use DECAs is being under the umbrella of Directv's "official" support.