ESPN HD Satellite Location?

[Ramy]

What satellite is ESPN HD located on? 99?(a)(s)? I am having issues with it breaking up all the time and I need to know which one to look for so I can fine tune it.

 

[KyL416]

99ca TPN 23

 

[Ramy]

99ca TPN 23

Thanks

 

[Inclined Orbit]

What satellite is ESPN HD located on? 99?(a)(s)? I am having issues with it breaking up all the time and I need to know which one to look for so I can fine tune it.

I would still fine tune on 101 following the Slimline instructions. Depending on where you are in the US peaking on 99 can degrade 104 and vice versa. The instructions were written for a reason and peaking on the proper transponder on 101 will center everything the best it can.

 

[Ramy]

I would still fine tune on 101 following the Slimline instructions. Depending on where you are in the US peaking on 99 can degrade 104 and vice versa. The instructions were written for a reason and peaking on the proper transponder on 101 will center everything the best it can.

Where are those instructions?

 

[Inclined Orbit]

Where are those instructions?

You used to find it on the DirecTV website and many of the dish vendors but I only see it on a few generic manual sites now. Here is one.

View: https://www.scribd.com/document/843376662/Slimline-Dish-Installation-Manual


The key points of the alignment are using a specific transponder on 101 and I forget which polarity it was. You make sure the mast is plumb, set the skew, find the 101 transponder and peak it then zero out the numbers on the AZ and EL knobs. Then tune CCW on the AZ knob to degrade the signal by a specific amount and write down the knob number. Then while counting turns go CW back through the peak and past it until you get to the exact same degraded signal level and record the knob numbers. Divide that number in half and turn the knob CCW that many turns and don't touch it again. Do the same for EL. Since there is no 110 or 119 orbital slot you shouldn't have to do the skew peak any more. This is all from memory from 15-20yrs ago so I might be a little rusty. Bottom line is this procedure gets you there within a small fraction of a degree for 99, 101 and 103. If you just peak using a meter you will usually be at least .5deg or more off target.

The reason 101 was chosen for alignment is because depending on where you are in the US, 99 and 103 can appear a little closer together or further apart and peaking on 101 with the correct transponder/polarity will always split the difference and give the most accurate peak.

 

[harshness]

Note that if you don't heed the first paragraph on page 6, your effort will likely fail.

You could make it work with a non-plumb mast and possibly hours of tweaking, but why?

Also, if it is no longer plumb, you should rigorously investigate why, as you may have a bigger problem.

 

[Gary Toma]

What satellite is ESPN HD located on? 99?(a)(s)? I am having issues with it breaking up all the time and I need to know which one to look for so I can fine tune it.

You need to discover the TPN_Map resource, updated weekly:

HERE

 

[Inclined Orbit]

Note that if you don't heed the first paragraph on page 6, your effort will likely fail.

You could make it work with a non-plumb mast and possibly hours of tweaking, but why?

Also, if it is no longer plumb, you should rigorously investigate why, as you may have a bigger problem.

The mast being plumb has no bearing on the ability to properly peak the dish with the numbered knobs and procedure, it only helps initially find the 101 satellite after setting elevation and rotating the dish on the mast. I did most of the field testing on the alignment procedure, helped verify that was the best and only way to peak the new Ka/Ku dish on 5 orbital slots at that time and I wrote most of the instruction manual for the dish and got several patents on the alignment procedure and some mount tid bits needed for it all to work. I also coined the "dither procedure" phrase which is actually a wrong term to use but it got out and was too late to change the name.

 

[Inclined Orbit]

Here is a video to back up the "dither procedure" and shows what happens if you don't follow it and how easy it is to do. How many of you at home have done what the "bad installer" did?


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve8tqdGMiyo

 

[harshness]

The mast being plumb has no bearing on the ability to properly peak the dish with the numbered knobs and procedure, it only helps initially find the 101 satellite after setting elevation and rotating the dish on the mast.

That doesn't make sense. Having the mast plumb ensures that when you set the skew and elevation properly, you've reduced your variables from three to two (or possibly one if you're using quality aiming data).

If it isn't plumb, there's a likelihood that you'll have to dial in all three parameters to get the best results, and there's no vernier adjustment for skew.

 

[Inclined Orbit]

That doesn't make sense. Having the mast plumb ensures that when you set the skew and elevation properly, you've reduced your variables from three to two (or possibly one if you're using quality aiming data).

If it isn't plumb, there's a likelihood that you'll have to dial in all three parameters to get the best results, and there's no vernier adjustment for skew.

You have to dial in all three parameters anyway. Even though I wrote most of the manual I've forgotten some of the terminology and the third axis is tilt per DTV but skew otherwise. Once you find the 101 satellite you peak it to make sure its not a side lobe, etc. Then start the dither process although I hate using that term these days. More than likely the tilt will be fine if set with a zip code but you can go to a 99 or 103 transponder and rotate the tilt slightly to see if there is any improvement and lock it down with the highest signal level there. The tilt was really important with the 110 and especially 119 orbital slots but not so much with just the current cluster of 99-101-103 slots only 2 degrees apart.

I've done every conceivable variation of the alignment procedure and some that you have probably not heard of when doing research on what became the procedure in the manual. I've use masts that were probably 10 degrees or more off plumb and at least for me it didn't matter a bit because the procedure in the manual always nailed it. If you watched the video I posted its real and the girl doing the alignment had never touched a dish alignment and had no prior knowledge of what she would be doing and she just read through the instructions with the person in the video and nailed the alignment where the top DirecTV field engineer at that time could not nail it using other methods. BTW the girl in the video asked not to be included in any further training videos and I can't blame her.

 

[harshness]

You have to dial in all three parameters anyway.

As an installer, most certainly. As a subscriber trying to get their channels back, not so much. The assumption is that the installer set the elevation and skew correctly, and you only need to make sure the mast is still plumb and maybe do a little azimuth tweaking. If the dish has been whacked hard enough to change any of the settings from the professional installation, you're probably pissing into the wind trying to aim it.

If the mast isn't plumb, making it so will likely fix the problem until it goes out of plumb again. A full-on initial installation is rarely warranted.

 

[Inclined Orbit]

As an installer, most certainly. As a subscriber trying to get their channels back, not so much. The assumption is that the installer set the elevation and skew correctly, and you only need to make sure the mast is still plumb and maybe do a little azimuth tweaking. If the dish has been whacked hard enough to change any of the settings from the professional installation, you're probably pissing into the wind trying to aim it.

If the mast isn't plumb, making it so will likely fix the problem until it goes out of plumb again. A full-on initial installation is rarely warranted.

If a dish is bumped after the installer leaves then it should always go through the entire alignment procedure including AZ, EL and Tilt. I don't see any alternative because there is no way to know what needs adjusting including the mast being at a different angle than when the dish was aligned. The alignment procedure only takes a few minutes so why skimp and leave out any steps? Its very easy to see if the dish is aligned by connecting a satelltie meter and simply pulling back gently on the top, bottom, left and right corners of the dish. It should degrade slightly in each direction when pulled and if it improves at all then the alignment is probably not valid.

The alignment procedure was perfected and condensed as much as possible before releasing to installers or consumers to make the process fast (to save $$ on labor) and to provide the best possible performance and rejection of neighboring satellites 2 deg away that are not owned by DirecTV. And with the outrigger arms on the mast and various things patented on the dish mount it should stay perfectly pointed for the life of the dish unless something really bad happens beyond the consumers control. The last thing that DirecTV wanted back then is an unhappy customer and having to roll a truck back to your crib.

 

[harshness]

I don't see any alternative because there is no way to know what needs adjusting including the mast being at a different angle than when the dish was aligned.

You know better than that (unless you've forgotten your days in the van). If anything moves, there will be fresh galling of the paint, if not the metal.

The alignment procedure only takes a few minutes so why skimp and leave out any steps?

Because that typically wouldn't be required. It is also made exceptionally difficult by the almost certain invalidity of an assumption that you've made:

Its very easy to see if the dish is aligned by connecting a satelltie meter and simply pulling back gently on the top, bottom, left and right corners of the dish.

You're making the unsupportable assumption that the troubled subscriber has ready access to an $800 meter (along with any necessary firmware updates it may require) or an old-school LNB.

Absent a functioning meter, your way kinda falls apart. Those who aren't installers or technicians are left with the unique option of setting the elevation and skew using the respective scales and fiddling with the azimuth while an assistant calls out the readings.

 

[Inclined Orbit]

You know better than that (unless you've forgotten your days in the van). If anything moves, there will be fresh galling of the paint, if not the metal.

Because that typically wouldn't be required. It is also made exceptionally difficult by the almost certain invalidity of an assumption that you've made:

You're making the unsupportable assumption that the troubled subscriber has ready access to an $800 meter (along with any necessary firmware updates it may require) or an old-school LNB.

Absent a functioning meter, your way kinda falls apart. Those who aren't installers or technicians are left with the unique option of setting the elevation and skew using the respective scales and fiddling with the azimuth while an assistant calls out the readings.

If a homeowner bumps his dish on the roof hard enough the mast or the mount to mast interface can move a little and you have no way of knowing what direction it needs to move back and there may not be any indication that it moved like chipped paint. In that case an AZ, EL and Tilt alignment is warranted and it really only takes a few minutes. In all the research I've done with hundreds or more alignments leading up to the dither procedure and writing the dish instructions I never used an AIM meter, those didn't exist until a few years later. I used Spectrum Analyzers, Birdog meters along with cheap satellite meters and even the setup screens on the IRDs themselves. You can literally do a perfect alignment using the setup screen on the DirecTV receiver if that's all you have.

I'll agree most consumers have no business trying to align their dish and will probably make things worse and I was originally responding to the person starting this thread who was looking for info so he could properly align his dish if that's what he wants to do. And if he has some basic knowledge, a meter and the instructions he can probably pull it off.

I don't have a lot of time in a van, I was not employed as an installer but rather a satellite broadcast principal engineer where my main job was at an uplink facility taking care of the huge uplink and downlink dishes, designing and overseeing projects at the uplink center, etc. For my contributions on the Ka/Ku and Slimline dish I had to go on countless installs and repairs to see what the installers do and I was SBCA certified as as a trainer for satellite installations meaning I could train the people who train the installers. In fact when the first version of the Ka/Ku dish was first released, about 25 of the supervisors and managers across the country were sent to me for training so they could pass the info down to all the installers across the country.

If you want a little more insight on how the Slimline and its predecessor and the alignment procedure came about I would be happy to fill you in (with pictures!) but it probably should have its own thread.

 

[raoul5788]

You know better than that (unless you've forgotten your days in the van). If anything moves, there will be fresh galling of the paint, if not the metal.

Because that typically wouldn't be required. It is also made exceptionally difficult by the almost certain invalidity of an assumption that you've made:

You're making the unsupportable assumption that the troubled subscriber has ready access to an $800 meter (along with any necessary firmware updates it may require) or an old-school LNB.

Absent a functioning meter, your way kinda falls apart. Those who aren't installers or technicians are left with the unique option of setting the elevation and skew using the respective scales and fiddling with the azimuth while an assistant calls out the readings.

Are you aware that you are arguing with the guy who wrote the book on how to align the Slimline dish?

 

[Inclined Orbit]

Are you aware that you are arguing with the guy who wrote the book on how to align the Slimline dish?

Its ok, there will always be questions about the Slimline dish and its unusual alignment requirements. And it was not just me or a couple of installers that came up with this stuff, the DirecTV team had from my memory two PHDs in electrical engineering, a PHD in fluid mechanics, the company chief technology officer who gave us the impossible specs to meet, basically a brilliant team with several of us coming from the Hughes Aircraft aerospace side.

Then there were the endless meetings with four of the worlds best small dish manufacturers who participated in the project to get their designs approved and into production. Although one mfr could never get past some mechanical backlash problems with their mount and to my knowledge was not able to produce the Slimline dish. Each mfr had their own mount design and their own alignment needs and in the end two mounts were approved and I didn't see many of the Cal Amp mounts after a time and mostly see the WNC mounts which use some of my patents.

Some of the mechanical hurdles, mainly backlash in the AZ/EL screws were pushing the approvals way out which would jeopardize the release date of the dish and I had some ideas which we could not share with the mfrs without first getting them to the patent attorneys and recorded. During this time and after gaining a lot of experience with what would be needed to get things moving I designed my own mount mostly in my sleep (not joking) and made a cardboard prototype which uses a radical approach which puts the dither adjustments in line with the orbital plane at all times instead of a simple up and down. Our VP of engineering approved having a metal version made which I did and it met all specs which none of the four mfrs had met at the time. I was told if the mfrs could not meet spec by a certain date they would go with my mount design and I won't lie that I was kinda hoping for that. In the end we were able to share a few mechanical tidbits with the mfrs that finally allowed their mounts to get approved and get into production. I still have my prototype mount somewhere and if there is ever a thread on DirecTV dish history I might post a picture. Especially if I can find a pic with one of the prototype reflectors that was milled out of a solid block of aluminum.

 

[harshness]

Are you aware that you are arguing with the guy who wrote the book on how to align the Slimline dish?

I am. I've watched some of his videos.

 

[harshness]

In that case an AZ, EL and Tilt alignment is warranted and it really only takes a few minutes.

If only the word "warranted" meant that the truck roll would be performed under a warranty on the installation. In this case, it means "justified," and that's going to cost.

In my experience, the argument about using the receiver's meter would be much stronger if it were much more sensitive in the upper range of the scale. As it is, the first 60% or so of the scale is mostly wasted.