G15 troubles

Status
Please reply by conversation.
I belong to a few other Sat forums for years ranging fromn NewZealand, Australia, China, Europe and US that I view Daily...This is the first time ever that I have experience such a disdane and respect towards your Hobby. I have been in the SatCom field since 1990 so I think I have a slight understanding about your interest.

I have never posted this type of comment to anyone due to its derogatory meaning but, TVOPRO, you are completely and utterly clueless to the impact of this problem with G-15...
 
It is a big problem from what I have read. I may even cause problems with adjacent birds. I think though you over reacted to my kidding around statements. Lighten up a bit it's not the end of the world. :)
 
Galaxy 15 -- The real story

Just to end some of the speculation, Galaxy 15 is being replaced by Galaxy 12 (the in orbit spare) because of a loss of command and control over Galaxy 15. While everyhting appears to be operating nominally as far as the entire payload goes, the loss of C&C was coupled with a solar storm. I suppose one could wonder if both comms systems were knocked out, could some else be weak leading to a catastrophic failure of the bird.

Due to lack of C&C on Galaxy 15, it has already started to drift eastward out of the station keeping box. So far it is 0.2 degree east of 133. Galaxy 12 is being moved to 133.3 in preparation to transfer the payload to the new satellite. What makes this interesting (if you can call it that) is that once payload is transfered, Galaxy 15 cannot be shut off.

Intelsat is maintaining 0.5 degrees of seperation between the two birds while the transition takes place. This will allow ground stations to re-peak on Galaxy 12 and off-point from Galaxy15. One half a degree isn't much!

To mitigate interference, the SFD of the Galaxy 12 bird will be to minimum. This will allow uplinks to access the new bird with very minimal power. The SFD on Galaxy 15 remains the same, and with the comparative flea power needed to light up Galaxy 12 it is hoped that interference from Galaxy 15 will be minimal. (as in the transponders will barely turn on)

As Galaxy 15 continues to drift east, Galaxy 12 will be noved closer and closer to the 133 position while maintaining at least 0.5 seperation. More would obviously be better.

After the payload transition, an aggressive attempt will be made to shut down the payload on Galaxy 15. Given that there is no C&C, my guess is that this means hitting Galaxy 15 with insane uplink power to try and get the transponders to shut down in an auto-protect mode.

If that fails, then the next issue will be inetrference with AMC-11 in the next slot east. But that isn't a real concern until sometime in May. SES could do the same thing Intelsat is doing with GAL 12 and turn the input attenuators to minimum while Galaxy 15 drifts by, hoping that the flea power uplinks to AMC-11 would not be enough to light up Galaxy 15 transponders.

I believe there will be some signal degradation on Galaxy 12 while this transition is made, especially to smaller downlink antennas with wider beamwidth. BIG antennas should be able to resolve the difference between Gal 15 and Gal 12.

In any case, this is fairly uncharted territory, because to my knowledge, a HOT switch to a new bird has never been made when there was no ability to turn off the "old" spacecraft.

April 16th should be an interesting day as the moves start.
 
....

Due to lack of C&C on Galaxy 15, it has already started to drift eastward out of the station keeping box. So far it is 0.2 degree east of 133. ...
I'm curious where you found this info. Not that I doubt it, since if it came from the controllers (lack thereof), they probably know bettert where the sat is, but this info differs from the SpaceTrack data, which says that the sat is at 132.95 +/- about 0.03 , and drifting at only about .013 Deg/Day at the current time. Tracking keps aren't that accurate when you try to use them over long periods, but the keps suggest that it's going to take about a month before it gets to 132.
...
.....
If that fails, then the next issue will be inetrference with AMC-11 in the next slot east. .......

In any case, this is fairly uncharted territory, because to my knowledge, a HOT switch to a new bird has never been made when there was no ability to turn off the "old" spacecraft.

April 16th should be an interesting day as the moves start.

Yes, this should be interesting. They should be able to handle the interferrence with G12, but if they aren't able to shut the thing off, I don't think it will be quite so easy to handle interferrence with the other sats, and they could be in for some law suits if uplinkers are forced to move off other sats. You'd think though, that if the on board computers are still functioning, that there is probably some built in functions like you mention that would shut the thing down, and if the on board computers aren't working, you'd think that it would lose attitude control and start spinning or something, which you'd think would result in the batteries losing charge enough that maybe they could keep the thing non functional by sending a lot of power to a part of a transponder not used by AMC11 (ie since their polarities are opposite, if they pumped power into like 3710H or 4190V, they might be able to keep the batteries drained without affecting AMC11??). Just guessing on my part, but I'm really thinking that these sats MUST have a lot of fail safe functions built in that they probably haven't tried to use yet, because they're probably waiting until G12 is on the scene before risking turning the thing off. I'd think it was 50/50 that they might actually be able to bring the thing back to life if they can get it to reboot, once the transponder content is shifted.
 
Galaxy 12 is on station

Galaxy 12 has finished it's drift to 133.3 WL +/- 0.05 degrees, and was given the "stop drift" command. Final station keeping manuvers will be done tomorrow (14th) and the payload on Gal 12 will be configured to match Galaxy 15.

Although I can't see it yet, there should be a beacon(s) coming up on 4198 Mhz and 4199.875 Mhz sometime soon. If you have enough stability and a large enough reflector, you might be able to see the spikes on an analyzer.

I still haven't heard an exact plan of what additional attempts are going to be made to command Galaxy 15 to the off condition or to attempt to get the spacecraft to re-boot, but they have "something" up thier sleeve that isn't being discussed in public. Wish I knew what it was. I'm really curious. Apparently Intelsat has said that they are reasonably confident that one of the tricks they have yet to try will work. I don't know if they mean they are confident they can shut it down or confident they can perform a re-boot.

It sounds like once the seperation between Gal 15 and Gal 12 has increased a bit more, Gal 12 will start a natural drift to 133.0 WL, its final home.

There will still likely be some adjacent satellite interference caused by Gal 15 being too close to Gal 12 at the onset, but that should improve a little bit every day as the seperation increases OR if Intelsat can shut 15 down alltogether.

Yesterday I posted that Gal 15 had already drifted east 0.2 degrees. That should have been 0.02 degrees. Fat fingers and poor proof-reading strike again!
 
I'm seeing the beacons on my Broadlogic Spectrum Analyzer.
Have they switched over to Galaxy 12 yet?
The signals are looking very strong tonight.
 

Attachments

  • Galaxy 12.jpg
    Galaxy 12.jpg
    35.8 KB · Views: 196
From Satforums:

HBO has announced that they will move their G1 HBO/MAX feeds that are on G1 satelite from Intelsat Galaxy 15 to Galaxy 12 satellite at 3:00 a.m. EDST on 04-16-10. This is necessary since the 5 year old Galaxy 15 satellite is having technical problems. Galaxy 12 is being located at the same orbital location as the Galaxy 15 satellite. In the unlikely event that Galaxy 12 fails to broadcast the transitioned signals, arrangements have been made to move them to the Galaxy 13 satellite (G9) at 127 degrees West. The HBO/MAX signals will go off for a few minutes during the transition.
 
All 10-15 years long, at least, if Intelsat is unable to make headway in the next week with the things they are going to try.

This should be over much sooner than that. At the very minimum, G-15 will eventually drift and stop at the 105W libration point, along with a gaggle of other dead birds. Well before that it is expected to lose the ability to achieve proper earth pointing. This will mis-orient its solar panels and deplete its batteries. That is anticipated to occur mid-summer if nothing changes.
 
This should be over much sooner than that. At the very minimum, G-15 will eventually drift and stop at the 105W libration point, along with a gaggle of other dead birds. Well before that it is expected to lose the ability to achieve proper earth pointing. This will mis-orient its solar panels and deplete its batteries. That is anticipated to occur mid-summer if nothing changes.

I agree re it likely losing power in a few months, but I don't agree that it will stop at 105W. I may be wrong, but I don't think that ANY sats have stopped at one of those theoretical stable orbital points where sats supposedly can collect at. My impression was that it would take many many years to get into one of those points, which are WAY out there. Every dead sat I've looked up was only a few hundred miles further outside the Clarke belt, and still moving at a good clip.

EDIT: Correction.. I thought you were referring to the Lagrangian points, which are out at ~ lunar distances, which I THINK are the only really Stable points were they think objects can stop. I may be wrong, but I thought those libration things you're talking about weren't really stable to the extent that things actually stopped there, but rather that things just tend to want to be there, but don't really stop there, or at least would take a long time before they did. If they were really stable, you'd think you'd see many sats at those positions, but like I said, every old sat I've looked up was constantly changing longitude at a good clip. Perhaps if they stopped a sat there under control, it might be stable, but a sat like G15, I doubt that it would stop there any time in my lifetime.
 
Last edited:
This must be why a number of muxes on AMC 11 are now being duplicated on other satellites.

Discovery DCII mux on AMC 10
Two Hallmark muxes on AMC 1
MTV DCII mux on AMC 2/4
 
At the very minimum, G-15 will eventually drift and stop at the 105W libration point, along with a gaggle of other dead birds.
I know I read that somewhere, too.
But not understanding what the cause was, I did a bit of searching.
Consider this answer:

• Ellipticity of the Earth causes gravity wells.
Stable points are 75E and 105W.
The Himalayas and the Rockies.
Unstable points are 165E and 5W.
Marshalls and Portugal.


BUT, how fast it'll shoot through there, overshoot, and fall back, et al.... I have nothing to offer.
I'm not an orbital mechanic... but my Dad did play one on TV ... :rolleyes:
 
This should be over much sooner than that. (...) Well before that it is expected to lose the ability to achieve proper earth pointing.

I thought earth lock sensors were automatic, as long as the satellite has control of its momentum wheels. I figured without any commanding, the earth lock sensors on G15 would automatically remain locked on earth (keeping the satellite pointed at the earth where it needs to be) and the solar arrays would continue to function since earth lock is kept and sun positionings known.

If earth commanding includes earth lock info and solar array pointing info, then I could see how this thing would last months, not decades, when the satellite doesn't get that info from earth stations.
 
G15 re-contact...

From the horse's mouth... Intelsat is going to try to re-contact the bird 5/3 in the AM (around 4)... If that fails they are going to try to blow-out the transponders so that the interference issue goes away.... key word there is "try"...
 
This must be why a number of muxes on AMC 11 are now being duplicated on other satellites.

Discovery DCII mux on AMC 10
Two Hallmark muxes on AMC 1
MTV DCII mux on AMC 2/4

I started to see backup muxes showing up about a month ago. At first I thought something was moving. What it actually was is because of the G-15 thing. We will see more as this progresses. The cool thing about it is some stuff goes ITC for a while. I should be an interesting summer as far as ITC stuff popping up I foresee :)
 
I know I read that somewhere, too.
But not understanding what the cause was, I did a bit of searching.
Consider this answer:

• Ellipticity of the Earth causes gravity wells.
Stable points are 75E and 105W.
The Himalayas and the Rockies.
Unstable points are 165E and 5W.
Marshalls and Portugal.


BUT, how fast it'll shoot through there, overshoot, and fall back, et al.... I have nothing to offer.
I'm not an orbital mechanic... but my Dad did play one on TV ... :rolleyes:

I don't understand these points either, but I was really having a hard time believing that a sat can just stop at one of these points. If so, you'd think that a sat at one of those points wouldn't need much in the way of station keeping, and you'd think that there would be a lot of dead sats ending up at these points, and I don't really see any evidence of either. On the other hand, there DOES seem to be something special about these locations.

As an experiment, I used a well respected tracking program with current keps to predict a few satellites over a LONG period of time. I did this being aware that tracking programs like this are less and less accurate the further you get from the epoch time when the keps were produced, plus the fack that there are all sorts of forces on these satellites not considered by these tracking programs. However I think this experiment will give some illustration of just how these points might affect the orbits of sats.

Anyway, the sats I experimented with were G15, AMC-15 and several old dead sats. Basically, the reason for the choice was to look at what the program says will happen to G15, what the program says would happen to a sat at 105 if it were left to itself, and also I wanted to look at several very old sats that have been dead for years, looking to see what has happened to them, and what the programs predict will continue to happen.

First of all, with respect to G15, the program predicts that over a 10 year period (I know), that G15 will go through several cycles of drifting to about 75W then back to 133W, then back to 75.6W, etc, etc, etc, and a cycle takes about 2 and a half years. Notice that the center of this oscillation is (133-75.6)/2+75.6=104.3 , which is pretty close to 105. Ie it seems to be a pendulum type thing drifting back and forth with 104.3 at the center.

I was next curious what the program would say about AMC-15, which is already fairly stable at 105. The results for AMC15 show drifting from 104.6 to 105.1, ie VERY STABLE at that position. (Which I must admit surprised me very much.)

I then wanted to look at some very old sats that were initially located both near to 105 and far away from 105 when they were released, however I don't have any information about just where the various sats WERE when they were finally abandoned, so this part was mainily an exercise in looking at random sats, and seeing what their orbits look like now, years after they were released.

One sat I looked at was Westar-4, since it used to be located not too far from 105, at 99. Problem is, however, that I don't know if it was moved to some other location after leaving 99. But anyway, W4 is NOT oscillating around 105 or any other point. It is drifting endlessly, circling the earth about once every 6 months. THis suggests that depending on where the drift starts, and/or with how much initial drift, the sat may just continue to drift forever.

I also tried GSTAR-2, which used to be located right at 105, and it too, is continually circling the earth a couple times each year. W4 and R2 also have inclinations of 13 and 12 degrees too BTW.

I also tried Westar-5, which once was located at 122, and it too, is circling the earth.

I will keep trying to look at old sats, hoping to find one that has stabilized into an oscillating orbit around 105W or 75E, however I really get the impression that perhaps these gravity valleys are more theoretical in nature, and other forces, such as solar wind, effects due to lunar or solar gravity, effects due to increasing inclination and or changes in the diameter of the orbit are enough to overcome the tendency to stay at these theoretical stable points.

If anyone is aware of sats that were definately abandoned in the vicinity of 105 (perhaps one of the Anik sats), and/or were intentionally placed in an orbit intended to locate the sats in one of those stable points, I'd be interested in running the simulation on them.

Again, the tracking programs are NOT accurate over long periods of time due to forces they don't take into account, however the current keps ARE an indication of what the orbit looks like NOW.

Anyway, this is an interesting topic.
 
Status
Please reply by conversation.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 0, Members: 0, Guests: 0)

Who Read This Thread (Total Members: 1)