Here is a real approach to attacking steroid use in baseball

[SamCdbs]

By the end of the 1998 season, before Bond's training regimen had "gone to his head"...

By "gone to his head" I suppose you mean "first commited a major federal drug felony and first cheated against all of his fellow players and the memory and records of all that came before him". You know that to be a fact in 1998? Since Bonds still denies that it EVER happened and demands that you recognize him as the non-cheating champion, how can you know when he first cheated?

I am giving the memory of RM, BR and everyone else he cheated the benfit of the doubt and starting his cheating days at day one. If that is wrong, let Bonds inform us of the day we should start to disbelieve him.

Oh, and since we are discussing records before a certain event:

Peter Edward Rose.

 

[SabresRule]

since we are discussing records before a certain event:

Peter Edward Rose.

Not buying it.

It was HIS decision.

He should have known about the consequences.

 

[brainiac]

GOD oh mighty, I have only answered this 100 times....ok, again, these players did NOT take them to break records....they took them to lengthen their careers by 3-6 season, give or take. Remember, again, 'roids do NOT build muscle...they help recoup faster so you can workout MORE. So, to them, they are healthier because they are working out more. You gotta stop thinking WWE and the NFL...they do not take the same PEDs or the same doses. They are NOT doing to be huge...but to be stronger.....two completely different animals. STRONGER....not better. IF it made them BETTER, .250 hitters would be hitting .330 and pitchers would be throwing 10-15 mph faster...guys would be faster and stealing more bases.

First of all, of course steroids by themselves don't build muscle; but they sure as hell allow you to do the things that do build muscle such as working out longer and harder, and recovering faster like you mentioned above. Not everyone is going to do the same things to get same results as far as body size and strength, that's a given. And a .250 hitter is a .250 hitter for a reason -- he's not going to become a superstar just because he's bigger and stronger. But let's get real here. McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, and A-Rod all got noticeably bigger. Guys with superior talent can, and have used steroids (using the term as a catchall, so don't nitpick about who took what) to take their accomplishments and abilities to the next level. Even those .250 hitters can get a few more hits or homers that they might not have gotten because now they're able to generate more bat speed due to being stronger. And yes, it IS possible for pitchers to increase their velocity as a result of using steroids to help them get bigger and/or stronger. Just ask Dan Naulty. And as far as not making helping to make you faster, let's ask Ben Johnson about that. Everyone has his own reasons for using steroids. McGwire was injury-prone and struggling, Clemens seemed to be approaching the end of the road, and Bonds was supposedly jealous of McGwire and Sosa. But I really doubt that A-Rod was really worried about extending his career back when he was just 25. Sandra, sorry for helping to continue to highjack your thread...

 

[brainiac]

By "gone to his head" I suppose you mean "first commited a major federal drug felony and first cheated against all of his fellow players and the memory and records of all that came before him". You know that to be a fact in 1998? Since Bonds still denies that it EVER happened and demands that you recognize him as the non-cheating champion, how can you know when he first cheated?

I am giving the memory of RM, BR and everyone else he cheated the benfit of the doubt and starting his cheating days at day one. If that is wrong, let Bonds inform us of the day we should start to disbelieve him.

Oh, and since we are discussing records before a certain event:

Peter Edward Rose.

And exactly what do you know to be facts? No one's evidence is claiming that he did anything before the end of '98. And if you want to put categories out there, let's make Babe Ruth the Segregation Era homerun champion, since you seemed to have conveniently forgotten about Hank Aaron.

 

[SamCdbs]

Not buying it.

It was HIS decision.

He should have known about the consequences.

And that differs from Bonds, Clemens, Rodriquez, et al, exactly how.

What arrogance these drug cheats have. Asking us to apply some kind of discount to figure out what they would have done if they had not cheated. But, of course, we know EXACTLY what Peter Edward Rose would have done had he not bet on baseball. Exactly the same as a player, and today be one of the all time great managers. But the hypocrite Selig "criticizes" him, bans Steinbrenner for "life" (one year) and Rose for life (for real).

Shame on Selig.

Too complex. They cheated. Nothing they ever did actually happened.

Liars. Cheats. Criminals.

 

[SabresRule]

Liars. Cheats. Criminals.

Rose would be two out of three.

He was a liar- didn't admit the truth until 2004- and a criminal- served jail time.

 

[salsadancer7]

You're obviously not understanding my point, that's why I underlined the in some way. I've never claimed that the only reason PEDs were used was to build muscle mass. I stated in one of the many other threads that 29 of the players listed in the Mitchell Report were pitchers. They definitely did not want to build muscle mass. As you state "they help recoup faster so you can workout MORE" and PEDs are proven to also allow you to rebound faster between performances. Don't these aspects of PEDs make you better in some way??

It help in the long run where you are in better shape and your chances of breaking down are less. Look at it this way, the average players can play almost 200 games in a given season if his team makes the playoffs. A guy on PEDs, while everyone else is starting to wear down....break down and little hamstrings start to tear..the guy on PEDs is litterally fresh because his bod is stronger and has less of a chance to break down.

THAT is the advantage PEDs give a baseball player.

 

[salsadancer7]

I am not commenting on your post in particular, especially since it's way off topic of this thread. But saying something....ANYTHING...100 times does not make it correct.


Sandra

I gave MY way of fixing and I am answering SOMEONE ELSE's very good question...again, has nothing to do with you.

And to YOUR comments...won't waste my breath on editorials.....

 

[salsadancer7]

Why reference his post, if you are not commenting on it?

Just Sandra being .......Sandra.....

 

[SabresRule]

Just Sandra being .......Sandra.....

So, does that mean Sandra's going to quit on this site the way Manny quit on the Red Sox?

 

[salsadancer7]

Because the NFL has a clear drug testing policy so when players get caught they are dealt with immediately. There would be outrage, and justifiably so, if NFL players were using steroids for years on end without getting caught. Because of the NFL's drug testing policy most players don't use roids. Of course there's a few boneheads who break the rules, but they don't get by with it for long. So whatever advantage they gain by using is temporary and usually offset by their suspension when thay are inevitabely caught. It's only in MLB that the players bitch and whine and refuse to submit to drug testing or say that if they do the records should be sealed forever. That's Bullsh!t and people know it.

I will give you they cheated....I will give you they whined that they didn't wanna get drug tested....but this whole notion that it is Bullsh!t that whined about the names is NOT Bullsh!t BECAUSE the OWNERS WENT WITH IT....THEY AGREED. Why can't you get that through your head? IT was a SIGNED LEGAL document BY THE OWNERS that NO NAMES were to come out.

You know the owners.....the ones that hold you city hostage for YOUR TAX MONEY for a new stadium in almost EVERY MAJOR CITY and then cry poverty that they 'cannot survive if we don't have a stadium' .....those guys....

 

[salsadancer7]

First of all, of course steroids by themselves don't build muscle; but they sure as hell allow you to do the things that do build muscle such as working out longer and harder, and recovering faster like you mentioned above. Not everyone is going to do the same things to get same results as far as body size and strength, that's a given. And a .250 hitter is a .250 hitter for a reason -- he's not going to become a superstar just because he's bigger and stronger. But let's get real here. McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, and A-Rod all got noticeably bigger. Guys with superior talent can, and have used steroids (using the term as a catchall, so don't nitpick about who took what) to take their accomplishments and abilities to the next level. Even those .250 hitters can get a few more hits or homers that they might not have gotten because now they're able to generate more bat speed due to being stronger. And yes, it IS possible for pitchers to increase their velocity as a result of using steroids to help them get bigger and/or stronger. Just ask Dan Naulty. And as far as not making helping to make you faster, let's ask Ben Johnson about that. Everyone has his own reasons for using steroids. McGwire was injury-prone and struggling, Clemens seemed to be approaching the end of the road, and Bonds was supposedly jealous of McGwire and Sosa. But I really doubt that A-Rod was really worried about extending his career back when he was just 25. Sandra, sorry for helping to continue to highjack your thread...

Dan Naulty....? Your sample size is ONE pitcher??!! One pitcher in ALL of the steroid era??!! A guy who NEVER won more than 3 games and his ERA all but ONCE hovered OVER the 4.9 ERA??!! THAT Dan Naulty?!

Oh and by the way, Ben Johnson GOT FASTER because he got STRONGER....the steroids help PREVENT injury while training.....He didn't get instantly faster....he had to get stronger, and that came with working out and training.

Getting back to subject.....I stated how the steroids should be handled....EVERYONE already knows my feelings in the steroid era and how it effected players. UNTIL there is a SCIENTIFIC STUDY proving that steroids makes you a better players....sorry, not buying it. Because for EVERY Sammy Sosa, Mark McGuire and Barry Bonds, I will give you Pudge Rodriguez, Paul Le Duca and even your very own example....Dan Naulty.....by the way, how were HIS stats with his 7 mph in his fastball?

 

[salsadancer7]

So, does that mean Sandra's going to quit on this site the way Manny quit on the Red Sox?

I have NO comment on what she will or will not do...It WILL be obvious this time tomorrow.....

 

[anders5189]

I will give you they cheated....I will give you they whined that they didn't wanna get drug tested....but this whole notion that it is Bullsh!t that whined about the names is NOT Bullsh!t BECAUSE the OWNERS WENT WITH IT....THEY AGREED. Why can't you get that through your head? IT was a SIGNED LEGAL document BY THE OWNERS that NO NAMES were to come out.

You know the owners.....the ones that hold you city hostage for YOUR TAX MONEY for a new stadium in almost EVERY MAJOR CITY and then cry poverty that they 'cannot survive if we don't have a stadium' .....those guys....

I'm not defending the owners, but am speaking as a fan. And as a fan I want the truth! So don't give me all this signed legal document nonsense. You have to be from outer space to think that anything scandalous that people do will remain a secret forever. I say good for the reporters who got Bonds grand jury testimony and good for A Rod getting outed. And for everyone else your day is coming.

 

[SandraC]

I gave MY way of fixing and I am answering SOMEONE ELSE's very good question...again, has nothing to do with you.

And to YOUR comments...won't waste my breath on editorials.....

Actually, your post I responded to was not giving your way of fixing anyting at all. It was another one of your posts about how steroids don't help players the same way most others here think steroids help players. And I am NOT disagreeing with you.

I do agree you've posted that at least a hundred times, though, I'll give you that.


Sandra

 

[SandraC]

I'm not defending the owners, but am speaking as a fan. And as a fan I want the truth! So don't give me all this signed legal document nonsense. You have to be from outer space to think that anything scandalous that people do will remain a secret forever. I say good for the reporters who got Bonds grand jury testimony and good for A Rod getting outed. And for everyone else your day is coming.

Well, for at least 103 others. Those names are going to hang over baseball until they're all revealed. It's out of the league's hands, but if I were them I'd want them all released now. They have to find a way to get ahead of this story so they can try to put it behind them.

If these names get released one or two at a time it's going to be very painful for both the players and the league. And the fans.


Sandra

 

[vampz26]

I have a better idea...

How about yankee fans not coddling yankee cheaters...

I had no problem nailing Sosa and Prior to the cross...and there wasn't even as much damning evidence as in the A-Roid case...

I'm sure if it was a high-profile redsox, Cubs, or 'other' player here locked in the pillory, we would see a few less evangelists and a few more pitchforks and torches here...but thats not the case...

Like I said before, A-Roid's a cheater...lets all acknowledge and move on. At least we have an explanation for his batting slump a few years back...

 

[SandraC]

I have a better idea...

How about yankee fans not coddling yankee cheaters...

I had no problem nailing Sosa and Prior to the cross...and there wasn't even as much damning evidence as in the A-Roid case...

I'm sure if it was a high-profile redsox, Cubs, or 'other' player here locked in the pillory, we would see a few less evangelists and a few more pitchforks and torches here...but thats not the case...

Like I said before, A-Roid's a cheater...lets all acknowledge and move on. At least we have an explanation for his batting slump a few years back...

I'm a Yankee fan, and I'm not coddling him at all.

I've said before I think his 'apology' was ridiculous. He wants us to believe he was worried about his new contract in Texas so he took steroids, but when he came to New York he stopped? Please. Since he's been here he's played and acted like he was a nervous wreck.

He worries about everything so much he's completely psyched himself out every Fall, but we're supposed to believe that's when he stopped taking PED's. Not many Yankee fans even believe that.


Sandra

 

[brainiac]

Dan Naulty....? Your sample size is ONE pitcher??!! One pitcher in ALL of the steroid era??!! A guy who NEVER won more than 3 games and his ERA all but ONCE hovered OVER the 4.9 ERA??!! THAT Dan Naulty?!

Oh and by the way, Ben Johnson GOT FASTER because he got STRONGER....the steroids help PREVENT injury while training.....He didn't get instantly faster....he had to get stronger, and that came with working out and training.

Getting back to subject.....I stated how the steroids should be handled....EVERYONE already knows my feelings in the steroid era and how it effected players. UNTIL there is a SCIENTIFIC STUDY proving that steroids makes you a better players....sorry, not buying it. Because for EVERY Sammy Sosa, Mark McGuire and Barry Bonds, I will give you Pudge Rodriguez, Paul Le Duca and even your very own example....Dan Naulty.....by the way, how were HIS stats with his 7 mph in his fastball?

OK, you just ignore what someone is saying, just to shout your opinion. I'm citing examples, not every case, which neither YOU nor I can do. Even so, Naulty might probably would have never made it to the majors without that extra velocity. And Pudge? At one point, he was one of the best hitting catchers in baseball! Do you know when he started and stopped using? Nowhere in my post did I say that anyone got instantly better. YOU'RE taking it there. Did you even read the post? I didn't say that steroids made you better. I said that steroids HELP you do the things that will enhance the abilities you have. I also said that mediocre players weren't going to become superstars. Before using the steroids, did everyone have the same ability? No, they didn't. Did everyone follow the same workout regimen? No, they didn't. Was everyone blessed with the same genetics? No, they weren't. So, how would YOU expect the same results for everyone using them? That's just naive! That's also the rub with a "scientific" study. You don't and won't have a controlled sample of baseball players being given steroids for research. By the way, though, there have been plenty of studies done on the effects of using steroids. This is from one of them:

"The gains made by athletes in uncontrolled observations have been much more impressive. Weight gains of thirty or forty pounds, coupled with thirty percent increases in strength, are not unusual. Such case studies lack credibility because of the absence of scientific controls. However, it would be foolish to completely disregard such observations because the "subjects" have been highly trained and motivated athletes. Please see the articles on pharmacology of sport and sports medicine in the countries of the former Soviet Union for more information on anabolic steroids."

ANABOLIC-ANDROGENIC STEROIDS: Mechanism of Action and Effects on Performance

Those are their words, not mine.

 

[SandraC]

OK, you just ignore what someone is saying, just to shout your opinion.

Just salsa being salsa....

I wonder if salsa will quit the site like Manny?

We'll know in about three minutes...


Sandra