Here is a real approach to attacking steroid use in baseball

SandraC

On Vacation
Original poster
Apr 10, 2008
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So many well-meaing posters here and other places come on with grand announcements that baseball should ban players who test positive, remove records of those who test positive, etc., etc. They make it sound like all it takes is an announcement by Bug Selig, and it is done.

When Selig feels like he has to say something and announces he'll look into suspending A-Rod, even he knows how ridiculous that sounds. He says the possibility is unlikely IN THE SAME ANNOUNCEMENT. But at least he's saying what he feels should happen.

Anything and everything regarding steroids and testing has to be collecively bargained with the union. That's how it works. In the 90's, if the league brought up steroids during contract talks, the union packed their bags and left the room. The MLBPA was dragged into any kind of steroid testing kicking and screaming, and apparently Gene Orza was tipping off players, telling them when their test would be back in the early 00's, in the hope that not enough players would test positive, and testing of any kind would go away.

So now in 2009, as past transgressions are coming to light one by one (and there are at least 103 more transgressions to come to light, if not thousands), the MLBPA still has no interest in further testing or stricter penalties. None. As constituted now, the union will never bargain that into an agreement. Ever. So everyone can stop with baseball needs to this or baseball needs to do that. They can't do it. Not by themselves, anyway.

But there is hope. Assuming in theory there are more players are NOT using PED's than those who are, it can be argued the union is not acting in the best interest of it's union members. Protecting those who cheat hurts their union members who don't cheat, or worse, encourages them to cheat.

I would like to think the players who don't cheat are pretty sick and tired of watching those who do cheat achieve more fame and fortune, and for a longer period of time, than they would have if they hadn't cheated. Roy Oswalt pretty much came out and said that this week, specifically saying A-Rod going 3 for 5 against him in his lifetime may have cost him money. It's a stretch, but it's a valid point.

But the real point is that there are hundreds of A-Rod's, people who are achieving more than they would if they didn't cheat. Let's for the sake of argument say Oswalt is telling the truth and he's never cheated. It's impossible to believe anything anymore, and nobody would even be surprised if the least likely players of all are one day revealed to be cheaters. I don't care what they look like, everyone is a suspect in my eyes. After Rafael Palmeiro waved his finger at congress then tested positive, I don't believe anyone anymore.

But let's say Oswalt doesn't cheat. Instead of coming out and saying A-Rod should be treated this way or that way, he should go to HIS UNION and demand they do more to find out who is cheating and who isn't. Tell his union they should allow the best testing possible, whether that's Olympics-style testing, or whatever is the best testing available right now. And if you can't test for HGH right now, even with a blood test, allow the blood to be stored any impartial way the union wants, so that if and when a test is developed, the blood can be tested at that point.

Stop with the bluster, Roy, and start dong something to effect real change. And bring all of your non-cheating union members with you. Maybe you've done this behind closed doors already, I don't know. If you did, that's not working. The union is as steadfast as ever in it's defiance to more testing and the lifetime bans we talk about.

So go public with your opinions. Tell everyone you want more testing. What do you care? You won't test positive. And recruit all of your 'clean' baseball playing brethren with you. Make your voices known. Tell everyone you want the game cleaned up.

If Orza and Fehr don't go along with you, lobby for a change at the top of the union. Get someone in who is truly working for all of the players, not just the dirty ones. It's been done in sports before, a number of times. These guys aren't kings for life, they have to be voted in again and again. Stop voting them in.

Stop complaining, Roy (and all the other clean players), and do what's right.


Sandra
 
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A few things.

FIRST, has there EVER been a comprehensive test proving once and for all, that PEDs actually make players better? Reason I ask that is because Marvin Miller brought that up in a conversation with local sports show host Dan LeBatard. Made me think, the ONLY thing that they have done has been compare the numbers...that is it. NOTHING scientific...NOTHING with doctors. Didn't you once say to me, 'you can manipulate numbers to say anything'? Well, the same can be said, under your logic about comparing numbers when it was used and not used.

Here is what I think should be done. 1st and foremost, DO NOT RELEASE the names of the other 100 players UNLESS the UNION VOTES to do AND IF the player/s are still playing, they got total immunity from any punishment. WHY? Because they were supposed to be sealed documents, MLB offices AGREED TO THIS. The LAST THING baseball needs, is this over their heads ALL season, ESPECIALLY if there are players still playing in the list of 100 players that tested positive.

SECONDLY, the players union will vote for ANY testing IF they get something in return. WE ALL know it takes negociating. Right now, the way MLB has it set up for testing....it HAS to stay. WHY? Do you think the players will ever trust the owners again after all this leaking? NOW is not the time to negociate...gotta wait till things cool off and PRIVATELY wheel and deal. Once things cool down, the players will negociate....truth be told, I do not blame them...they were told the names would never get out.

And FINALLY....

1st offense, 1/3 of the season suspension WITHOUT PAY.
2nd offense, the WHOLE SEASON and proof of being clean AT LEAST 8 months.
3 offense, indefinate suspension, MUST be clean for at least 18 months....and the team has the option to completely terminate the contract.
 
FIRST, has there EVER been a comprehensive test proving once and for all, that PEDs actually make players better? Reason I ask that is because Marvin Miller brought that up in a conversation with local sports show host Dan LeBatard. Made me think, the ONLY thing that they have done has been compare the numbers...that is it. NOTHING scientific...NOTHING with doctors. Didn't you once say to me, 'you can manipulate numbers to say anything'? Well, the same can be said, under your logic about comparing numbers when it was used and not used.
I know I've asked this in at least one of the many PED threads here, and I've never seen a response from yourself or anyone who believes that PEDs don't make players better (the PE stands for Performance Enhancing, BTW), so I'll ask it again:

Why would players use these PEDs, knowing the risks and future health side-effects, if they didn't make them better in some way??
 
The problem is that the players still look at Don Fehr like some sort of Moses for standing up to the owners during the 90's and preventing a salary cap. The players need to wake up and realize that they are killing their reputations and that of the sport by resisting drug testing. Screw privacy rights! It's real comical to hear overpaid millionaires who can't get enough camera time whine about privacy rights. They ought to be drug tested before every game just to show that they're clean.

I mean half the guys in league come from the Dominican Republic where they'd be lucky to earn 50 cents a day working in a sugarcane field yet they get the opportunity to come to the United States and get paid millions to play a kids game and they think drug testing is an invasion of their privacy!!!!!! It's like hearing a guy who won the lottery complain that he has to pay taxes on the winnings.
 
The problem is that the players still look at Don Fehr like some sort of Moses for standing up to the owners during the 90's and preventing a salary cap. The players need to wake up and realize that they are killing their reputations and that of the sport by resisting drug testing. Screw privacy rights! It's real comical to hear overpaid millionaires who can't get enough camera time whine about privacy rights. They ought to be drug tested before every game just to show that they're clean.

The players look up to Fehr because he kicked MLB's butt at the negotiating table time and time again. He constantly told the players there would never be testing, but the players should have spoken up and DEMANDED testing...the honest players anyway.

Now all of the honest players fall under the same suspicion umbrella the rest of them fall under, and some of them seem to be mad about it. Down the road eveyone will look back at this era and question each and every statistic, because it was attained in the 'steroid' era. So the players who didn't cheat will basically be accused of cheating anyway. Serves them right.


Sandra
 
Interesting that when a top NFL player is busted for steroids (Merriman) the biggest story is how the Chargers will fare without him for four weeks.

The hysteria over steroids in baseball is getting ridiculous. There is a strong testing program now in place, and Arod 2001 is ancient history. Can't we just move on?

And though I'm no fan of Fehr (he finally started to see the light on this issue way too late), the MLB owners have a long and proud history of screwing the players whenever possible and by any means necessary; in that light I understand Fehr's suspicions on the subject. In part I suspect MLB ownership fans the flames of this issue in an attempt to weaken the player's union.

Again, why doesn't steroids use in the NFL cause the same level of outrage? Why does the NFL get a free pass?
 
- The idea that steroids don't work is crazy. Of course steroids work. It enabled a marginal ballplayer like Bonds to hit hundreds of home runs he never would have hit honestly.

- Unions always protect the bottom feeders. If you work in a factory and some guy is a screw up or a goof off, YOU have to work harder to make up for him. So you would think the unions would be the first to get rid of those guys. But no. They protect the bottom feeders. Its what unions do. In this case, honest players are put in the situation where they must RISK THEIR LIVES taking drugs that cause all sorts of problems now and in later life. Not to mention violate the law. Now, should not the majority of players DEMAND a STRICTER testing program than the owners (who can cash in on the home run fest and not really care that nobody is alive to play in the old timers' game in 2020) would want. But, no. Unions protect the bottom feeders. Its what unions do.

- But what we are all forgeting in the "court of public opinon". Selig can certainly act unilaterally. The union can either accept it, go on strike about it, or sue, in which case Selig can lock them out. Multi-millionaire on strike for the right to take illegal drugs and cheat? They would be lucky if they are not physically attacked.
 
-... a marginal ballplayer like Bonds ....
By the end of the 1998 season, before Bond's training regimen had "gone to his head", he had 400+ homers, 400+ stolen bases, three MVP awards and eight Gold Gloves. In other words, if he had been run over by a train during that off-season, then five years later, he would have been a first ballot Hall-of-Famer.

It is within the realm of possibility that Bonds had taken human growth hormones, or amphetimines, or unicorn horn powder or something before 1998. I think that he did whatever he did after the 1998 season because he knew he was the best ballplayer in baseball, but America had become enamored with two lesser hitters who were taking steroids.
 
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Unions always protect the bottom feeders. If you work in a factory and some guy is a screw up or a goof off, YOU have to work harder to make up for him. So you would think the unions would be the first to get rid of those guys. But no. They protect the bottom feeders. Its what unions do. In this case, honest players are put in the situation where they must RISK THEIR LIVES taking drugs that cause all sorts of problems now and in later life. Not to mention violate the law. Now, should not the majority of players DEMAND a STRICTER testing program than the owners (who can cash in on the home run fest and not really care that nobody is alive to play in the old timers' game in 2020) would want. But, no. Unions protect the bottom feeders. Its what unions do.
Think about what the MLBPA would have done had they existed in other eras in baseball history. After the Black Sox scandal of throwing the WS the union would have resisted efforts to ban gambling from the game on account that the players had a right to put food on the table. Had they existed in the 40's the union would have resisted integration because it would have threatened so many mediocre white players of that day.
 
I know I've asked this in at least one of the many PED threads here, and I've never seen a response from yourself or anyone who believes that PEDs don't make players better (the PE stands for Performance Enhancing, BTW), so I'll ask it again:

Why would players use these PEDs, knowing the risks and future health side-effects, if they didn't make them better in some way??

GOD oh mighty, I have only answered this 100 times....ok, again, these players did NOT take them to break records....they took them to lengthen their careers by 3-6 season, give or take. Remember, again, 'roids do NOT build muscle...they help recoup faster so you can workout MORE. So, to them, they are healthier because they are working out more. You gotta stop thinking WWE and the NFL...they do not take the same PEDs or the same doses. They are NOT doing to be huge...but to be stronger.....two completely different animals. STRONGER....not better. IF it made them BETTER, .250 hitters would be hitting .330 and pitchers would be throwing 10-15 mph faster...guys would be faster and stealing more bases.
 
The problem is that the players still look at Don Fehr like some sort of Moses for standing up to the owners during the 90's and preventing a salary cap. The players need to wake up and realize that they are killing their reputations and that of the sport by resisting drug testing. Screw privacy rights! It's real comical to hear overpaid millionaires who can't get enough camera time whine about privacy rights. They ought to be drug tested before every game just to show that they're clean.

I mean half the guys in league come from the Dominican Republic where they'd be lucky to earn 50 cents a day working in a sugarcane field yet they get the opportunity to come to the United States and get paid millions to play a kids game and they think drug testing is an invasion of their privacy!!!!!! It's like hearing a guy who won the lottery complain that he has to pay taxes on the winnings.

NOW we are breaking down to RACE??!!:rolleyes: Excuse me, but the major leagues is still approx. 75% AMERICANS and only approx. 25% consist of Latin American players....

So I guess, if these 'sugarcane cutters' came to play ball and they were told and promised by the OWNERS THEMSELVES that their names would be kept private, I guess 'sugarcane cutters' should have right too? I mean they would ONLY be paid 50 cents back home and should be lucky American gave them a job huh??!!
 
Interesting that when a top NFL player is busted for steroids (Merriman) the biggest story is how the Chargers will fare without him for four weeks.

The hysteria over steroids in baseball is getting ridiculous. There is a strong testing program now in place, and Arod 2001 is ancient history. Can't we just move on?

And though I'm no fan of Fehr (he finally started to see the light on this issue way too late), the MLB owners have a long and proud history of screwing the players whenever possible and by any means necessary; in that light I understand Fehr's suspicions on the subject. In part I suspect MLB ownership fans the flames of this issue in an attempt to weaken the player's union.

Again, why doesn't steroids use in the NFL cause the same level of outrage? Why does the NFL get a free pass?

WOW! WOW! WOW! This post will not be topped by anyone!! BEST POST so far when it comes to the steroid issue!!!!:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap
 
GOD oh mighty, I have only answered this 100 times....ok, again, these players did NOT take them to break records....they took them to lengthen their careers by 3-6 season, give or take. Remember, again, 'roids do NOT build muscle...they help recoup faster so you can workout MORE. So, to them, they are healthier because they are working out more. You gotta stop thinking WWE and the NFL...they do not take the same PEDs or the same doses. They are NOT doing to be huge...but to be stronger.....two completely different animals. STRONGER....not better. IF it made them BETTER, .250 hitters would be hitting .330 and pitchers would be throwing 10-15 mph faster...guys would be faster and stealing more bases.
You're obviously not understanding my point, that's why I underlined the in some way. I've never claimed that the only reason PEDs were used was to build muscle mass. I stated in one of the many other threads that 29 of the players listed in the Mitchell Report were pitchers. They definitely did not want to build muscle mass. As you state "they help recoup faster so you can workout MORE" and PEDs are proven to also allow you to rebound faster between performances. Don't these aspects of PEDs make you better in some way??
 
GOD oh mighty, I have only answered this 100 times....ok, again, these players did NOT take them to break records....they took them to lengthen their careers by 3-6 season, give or take. Remember, again, 'roids do NOT build muscle...they help recoup faster so you can workout MORE. So, to them, they are healthier because they are working out more. You gotta stop thinking WWE and the NFL...they do not take the same PEDs or the same doses. They are NOT doing to be huge...but to be stronger.....two completely different animals. STRONGER....not better. IF it made them BETTER, .250 hitters would be hitting .330 and pitchers would be throwing 10-15 mph faster...guys would be faster and stealing more bases.

I am not commenting on your post in particular, especially since it's way off topic of this thread. But saying something....ANYTHING...100 times does not make it correct. ;)


Sandra
 
Again, why doesn't steroids use in the NFL cause the same level of outrage? Why does the NFL get a free pass?
Because the NFL has a clear drug testing policy so when players get caught they are dealt with immediately. There would be outrage, and justifiably so, if NFL players were using steroids for years on end without getting caught. Because of the NFL's drug testing policy most players don't use roids. Of course there's a few boneheads who break the rules, but they don't get by with it for long. So whatever advantage they gain by using is temporary and usually offset by their suspension when thay are inevitabely caught. It's only in MLB that the players bitch and whine and refuse to submit to drug testing or say that if they do the records should be sealed forever. That's Bullsh!t and people know it.
 

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