Hook up & motor control 2 1M dishes 1 1.2M dish

[wrdavis]

I'm currently planning to try a mini bud with my 1M motorized dish using a bsc621 c/ku combo LNB & conical scalar ring with a Pansat 9200 in the bedroom. Sounds to be feasible from what I've read about mini bud's. But also sounds like the focus for an offset dish might not allow working for both C & Ku bands. If I can get it to work, I plan to buy a second set for my second 1M dish, motor & Pansat 9200 in the living room. And in that case everything is OK.

But if I find I can't achieve focus on both bands, I'm thinking an alternate route using a new 1.2M dish with motor. But here's the rub only two receivers, and three dishes and motors. Presently I have totally independent satellite and channel viewing in the two rooms.

So is it possible to control two motors from only one receiver w/o shutting off the receiver, disconnecting and re-connecting a second cable to the other motor? What kind of switch would I need?

Seems a dual output c band lnb could feed both Pansats, or would the stackable LNB be better? And just what is a stackable anyway?

Also in the mix are two 24" oval dishes with LNB's at 110, 119 & 129. Presently LNB selection is with a simple 1x4 Diseqc switch for each room's equipment.

 

[pendragon]

So is it possible to control two motors from only one receiver w/o shutting off the receiver, disconnecting and re-connecting a second cable to the other motor? What kind of switch would I need?

A DiSEqC switch, such as a 4x1 can do this. Not everyone favors this approach, but there aren't a lot of alternatives and I've never had a problem.

Seems a dual output c band lnb could feed both Pansats, or would the stackable LNB be better? And just what is a stackable anyway?

Either approach will work. Many typical FTA LNBs output either H or V as 950-1450 MHz controlled by the receiver's 18/13V polarization selection. A bandstacked LNB outputs both polarizations at the same time. This isn't completely standardized, but one method is to output V from 950-1450 MHz and H from 1550-2050 MHz. The receiver has to know the stacking layout for this to work. The main advantage for stacking is running and switching only one coax line.

 

[Anole]

let's recalibrate:

I am not aware of any LNBF's for C-band AND for Ku, that have the ability to drive more than one receiver.
Sadoun has a nice bandstacked C-band-only that'll drive multiple receivers.
SatelliteAV sells the C2 two-output C-band-only which you could hook to multiple receivers.

All the dual-band LNBF's like the BSC621 (which has a bad reputation for Ku), or Ck-1 or DMX741 have only single outputs for C, and single output for Ku.

The only solution (which is outrageously priced) is a dual band orthomode feedhorn.
That should be easy enough to search for; it was discussed just this summer.
AND, it is highly recommended if you have $500 to invest. -

Now, as to putting anything serious on a 1.0 meter dish, here are some birds Linuxman was able to get on that size Primestar (good quality commercial dish).
If I were serious about mini-BUDding, I'd start out with at least a commercial 1.2m (4') dish, and not a millimeter less! -

edit:
Here is some info on running two motors from a single receiver/switch.
SatelliteAV on using the Ecoda 22khz switch with a motor:
http://www.satelliteguys.us/free-ai...51-ecoda-22khz-reliability-2.html#post1798925

Another thread that might interest you, is one by Pendragon on running a motor from two receivers.

 

[pendragon]

Anole has a good point that none of the C/Ku combo feeds, other than the dual ortho, is going to provide independent access for two receivers. That may or not be a problem. If you want to have any receiver connect to any antenna, there will be a couple of considerations:

Motor control - the easiest solution would be for one receiver to control the positioning of the 2-3 dishes. Giving both receivers the ability to position any dish is more complicated, but possible. In this latter case you would probably find it simpler to have only one receiver accessing a dish during the positioning.

LNB polarization constraints - without the dual ortho feed both receivers would have limitations if they were accessing the same dish and band because they would have to use the same polarization. There will be some added complexity to do this, but not much cost. The fact that you will have at least as many dishes as receivers means that this constraint may not cause any limitation in usability.

If you're willing to put up three dishes, I would highly recommend considering a least a 1.8m prime focus instead of a mini-BUD for C-band. The performance will be dramatically better.

 

[wrdavis]

Seems like most people say to place the motor before the diseqc switch for current passing problems. But in looking at the specs for the 1x4 switch; says it can pass 500ma and the motor says it uses 200ma. So that would indicate a 1x4 could be used to both select the LNB and the motor of the dish desired to move. The LNB must use some power, but seems like the 300ma left over should be more than enough. Seems I once measured the current with my Digisat II and LNB current was well under 100ma. But C band LNBs could well be different.

So that answers the one receiver, two motors problem.

Having used motorized dishes, I know the problem trying to get two receivers to control one dish. That's the reason I have two motorized dishes now. One for each receiver.

For my application, if using the bsc621 C/Ku works with my 1M dish. I will just buy a second bsc621 for my other 1M dish and problem solved. So I'm not looking for a dual output/dual band LNB.

But if the C and Ku signals can't be both focused on the LNB, which I hear is a problem. Then I would need to use a third dish for C band only and that dish's LNB would need to be a dual output to feed both receivers.

I agree the bigger that third dish (if needed) the better. But I just don't have room for anything bigger the the 1.2M. Its only because I've read that mini bud 1M can work that I'm even trying C band. I've looked at Lygnsat footprints for the satellites I'd want to watch on C band and the EIRP for my location in Calif says a 90 to 115cm dish should work and might work on a couple other satellites.

 

[Anole]

suggestions:

- please see my links above for using an Ecoda 22khz switch to carry motor current.
Some diseqc switches may, but most probably will not.

- try your 1 meter C-band tests.

- if not satisfied, think about a WSI 1.2 meter dish.

- while you are at WSI/Galaxy, order up a conical scalar, too.
Come to think of it, Sadoun sells the exact same scalar.

- consider getting a C2 dual output C-band LNB.
Sadoun has them on sale right now.

- ya would need a 2x4 or bigger multiswitch, if you want to feed more than two C-band receivers

 

[wrdavis]

Well the BSC621 C/Ku LNB came and I had a chance to try it out yesterday.

Anole is right about the reputation the BSC621 has on Ku. It only had about half the signal of my LC101 monster (Invacom QPH031 clone). It was bad enough; that the idea of having both C & Ku on the one 1M dish was shot down. Didn't even bother trying the C band.

So looks like the alternate C band solution will take place. I've manged to convince my wife that a 1.8M Foretec six foot dish can live on the roof of the gargage. In looking at the costs of 4 & 6 foot dishes, the 6 foot looks like a better deal with lower shipping, since the pieces are smaller. And as most every post I've read here on C band "bigger is better". But six foot is my limit on this property, just no place to put one bigger.

On the six foot dish I would use a dual output C band LNB (Geosat pro C2) to feed both the bedroom and living room TV's. Are both outputs independent as far as polarity and frequency like the Ku LNBs?

A Gbox 3000 actuator contoller will handle the six foot dish aiming independent of the receivers. With the remote and RF remote extenders, think I can control the Fortec from either room. So both rooms will have independent Ku, but have to share the same C satellite. In using the GBox remote, do you need to see the display, or can you just poke the buttons and the antenna goes to the selected satellite?

I use One For All universal programmable remotes with the JP1 programming from my computer. Has anyone done the programming for the GBox 3000 remote?

 

[Greg Mueller]

I would think getting more than one dish to "go" would not be the problem, but rather where the multiple dishes "are". A simple automobile relay could be used to switch on and off power to the motors.
Unless you used selsen motors or something similar, you would not be sure that both (or more than two) dishes were pointed at the same point (in the sky) since only one dish could send pulses back to the receiver.
Unless there was a physical connection between the two dishes that would keep them synced. But then you would have physical linkage to mess with

You could try large stepper motors, but then you would get all involved with that rat's nest of problems.

You could have two of the same brand of component dish mover boxes that each had their own programming that would take two (or more) dishes to W5 (etc) when you pushed the button on the remote

So to put it simply the problem IMO would not be driving them it would be resolving their positions

 

[wrdavis]

I have two 1M dishes. One controlled by the living room receiver using USALS. The second controlled by the bedroom receiver using USALS. No problem there.

The planned third dish for C band would be independently aimed with the Gbox 3000 using its remote and a 18" actuator. The C band signals would go the both receivers and be selected using diseqc 1x4 switches.

My question about the Gbox was if you needed to see the display for some reason when changing to a different satellite for the C band dish using the Gbox remote. If so, would tend to defeat the advantage of the remote controlling it from a different room with RF extenders.

 

[Greg Mueller]

Maybe you could memorize push button steps.

 

[wrdavis]

Maybe walking from room to room to check push-button steps would help my memory.

 

[Anole]

germ of an idea, not a solution:

Not something I've really thought too much about, much less tried, but . . .
Can't you use Pendragon's dual receiver on one motor idea I linked above, and let both receivers access any C-band bird through the one Gbox?
The Gbox uses diseqc commands, and those should coexist with the USALS commands that drive the individual Ku-dish motors.
Of course, each satellite needs an entry for Ku, and one for C-band, but that is possible. - :up - (and even traditional)

edit:
Come to think of it, this well-documented idea by Pendragon on splitting power and motor control, might be a factor in such a design.


disclaimer: yes, yes, whichever receiver moved the BUD last . . . gets the last word. -
But, big deal! -

 

[pendragon]

Not something I've really thought too much about, much less tried, but . . .
Can't you use Pendragon's dual receiver on one motor idea I linked above, and let both receivers access any C-band bird through the one Gbox?
The Gbox uses diseqc commands, and those should coexist with the USALS commands that drive the individual Ku-dish motors.
Of course, each satellite needs an entry for Ku, and one for C-band, but that is possible. - :up - (and even traditional)

edit:
Come to think of it, this well-documented idea by Pendragon on splitting power and motor control, might be a factor in such a design.

The concept of more than one receiver positioning one or more dishes will work with or without the motor mod. Doing the motor mod, too, has the advantage of not passing motor power through the DiSEqC switches, and the motor speed is not dependent on the polarization selection (H vs. V) voltage.

 

[wrdavis]

Tried the BSC621 lnb with conical scalar ring on my 1M dish. Ring certainly improves signal.

I could pick up 3 C band satellites that must have strong signals. WAPA on G16 @ 99 degrees in Spanish.
A sports channel in English on G-23 @ 121.
And on G-15 @ 133 degrees, the east & west of AMC, WE, IFC, Fuse, & Sundance all encrypted.

Most of the signals I was after didn't even give a blip on the signal meter. So clearly a larger dish is needed. Not sure a 1.2M would be much better, so thinking the 1.8M Fortec.

Called the city building permit people to see if I needed a permit for a 6 foot dish. Looks like none required as long as it isn't over 35' tall. My site survey shows it should be at least 6 feet above ground level. Figure I'd add a couple more feet, so I don't bump my head when walking under it.

With the 6 foot Fortec dish, is there any reason to use the conical ring over the flat ring?

 

[Lak7]

Issue I had with 1 receiver driving a GBox and SG2100 via ECODA 22KHz, is that the ECODA "always" passes motor commands on both sides. So the SG2100 would move every time the GBox moved.
The GBox would not listen to USALS, but don't hit the Go To Zero, the GBox will respond.

I now use a 2 receiver setup.

 

[Anole]

great news:

Now that we've come this far, why stop with a minimalist 6' dish?
You can probably pick up and recycle a freebie 8' BUD.
Look at the two in my signature and tell me you wouldn't like one of those! - *

As for the conical scalar, that's only needed on offset dishes for C-band.
Since you were considering a 6' Fortec prime-feed (or hopefully my 8' BUD idea), the flat scalar is the way to go.

I'm still recommending the C2 LNBF, as it has earned a good reputation with the guys.


*- edit:
Here are two post that just came in today for highly desirable dishes:
dual 10' Unimesh, SF Bay, Calif.
10' Zenith BUD, Carlisle, Penn.
This is representative of what shows up here every month!

 

[wrdavis]

The 10' unimesh dish near SF sounds like a good deal at $25. But I'd have to also look for a bargain coffin. It took some convincing to get my wife to agree to a six foot one. And the idea was it would live in the backyard. Now that I've shown her it would have to be in the front yard, she may nix the whole thing.

How easy do these antennas come apart. I have a Ford Ranger and it would have to be completely disassembled to fit in the pick-up's bed.

More to my wife's concept and even mine is this one at ebay. 330353620817 a six foot Orbitron mesh $350 or best offer, also located north of SF.

 

[Anole]

friends don't let friends get screwed:

rThat eBay guy is on drugs if he thinks he can get $350 for that!
See my sig. I got a spun aluminum, perforated 8' beauty, on a fantastic AJAK 180 H-H mount, and it included a (useless) Toshiba analog receiver... for ...
. . . F.R.E.E. . . .

Just to be friendly, I might give him $50, if he'd help take it down.
Or more if he's already dug out the pole.
'Cause, getting one tall enough will be a big expense if you can't take one home from a 'find'!

edit:
And regarding that coffin, the phrase the guys here have popularized, is:
"better to ask forgiveness, than to ask permission!"
(I really gotta find who came up with that, and give 'em credit each time I use it!) -

 

[Cadsulfide]

I would be VERY hesitant to mount a large dish on a garage roof unless it was flat and you were using a NPRM.

 

[wrdavis]

Built a mockup of a six foot dish so my wife could get an idea what it would look like. And so I could confirm it wouldn't bang into something else.

I used welders magnets to hold the J mast in place and made a polar axis for it to swing to prove clearances from the service wires and roof.

I'm on a side of a hill with trees blocking east of 89 or so. And not many places for even a small six foot dish to see the sky.

In using my Align a Site, showed the bottom third or so of the dish would be seeing trees in some of the directions I want it to point. I could just extend the J mast and struts, but I'd rather have the wind catcher as low on the garage roof as possible.

Think for starters I'll just fix aim one at 99 and see how that works out. Might make a temp NPRM from 2x6's. Later on add an actuator and Gbox controller for it.

Included pictures of my 6 foot dish mockup. For reference the mockup is looking east.