Is HD TV really needed?

Jim5506

Jim5506

SatelliteGuys Master
Pub Member / Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
7,615
2,453
Lubbock, Texas
The converter box program expressly prohibits the use of the coupons for any device that has a video display or any recording capability. Also excluded are devices with HDMI, component, toslink and firewire outputs.

In other words its for a SD digital to analog converter with either RF or composite outputs only.
 
Geronimo

Geronimo

Supporting Founder
Supporting Founder
Lifetime Supporter
Sep 9, 2003
12,035
1,618
Jim 5506 is correct. I have even hard that these boxes are unlikely to have S video. The program really is just a way to not immediately obsolete all the analog TVs. It si not trying to stimulate digital sales.
 
harshness

harshness

SatelliteGuys Master
May 5, 2007
16,976
3,015
Salem, OR
All devices since March are required to have digital tuners in them, if they have an analog tuner.
With the remarkable exception of the analog TiVo boxes. Instead, TiVo declared them as being for use with CATV.
 
Geronimo

Geronimo

Supporting Founder
Supporting Founder
Lifetime Supporter
Sep 9, 2003
12,035
1,618
With the remarkable exception of the analog TiVo boxes. Instead, TiVo declared them as being for use with CATV.

Interesting. do they have NTSC tuners but not ATSC?
 
harshness

harshness

SatelliteGuys Master
May 5, 2007
16,976
3,015
Salem, OR
Interesting. do they have NTSC tuners but not ATSC?
They have recently unloaded most of their NTSC only Series 2 boxes that were being pushed as CATV only, but now they have a NTSC+QAM Series 2 DT box which doesn't have ATSC capability either.
TiVo Series 2 DT disclaimer said:
Supports recording from cable and satellite sources only; does not support recording from over-the-air antenna or high definition.
TiVo would seem to be telling a bit of a white lie.
 
Geronimo

Geronimo

Supporting Founder
Supporting Founder
Lifetime Supporter
Sep 9, 2003
12,035
1,618
Wow! I did not think that wa allowed. thansk for the info.
 
Jim5506

Jim5506

SatelliteGuys Master
Pub Member / Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
7,615
2,453
Lubbock, Texas
QAM is digital - so they are compliant, because they are listed for cable.
 
Geronimo

Geronimo

Supporting Founder
Supporting Founder
Lifetime Supporter
Sep 9, 2003
12,035
1,618
I gue my urprise is that you could market a set with an NTSC tuner without an ATSC one---regardless of the addition of QAM and the marking that it is for cable. Out of curiosity could an actual TV be sold this same way?
 
navychop

navychop

Member of the Month - July 2014!
Pub Member / Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
Jul 20, 2005
53,309
18,438
Northern VA
It is the rare cableco that uses NTSC. But it's probably not worth their time to go after them- short time problem, even if Tivo survives.

"Digital" cable means nothing- it's ATSC that matters.
 
Geronimo

Geronimo

Supporting Founder
Supporting Founder
Lifetime Supporter
Sep 9, 2003
12,035
1,618
I realize that the cable co would not use NTSC but unless I read the earlier post incorrectly these tivos have NTSC but not ATSC tuners. I thought that was verboten.
 
Jim5506

Jim5506

SatelliteGuys Master
Pub Member / Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
7,615
2,453
Lubbock, Texas
80% of cable is NTSC. Only digital cable is QAM and there are scads of small cable companies all across the country that are using digital cable as a premium. Even here in Lubbock our largest cable co is primarily NTSC with a premium digital tier in QAM. If I was a local cable sub instead of Dish, I'd already have one of the new HD TiVo's @ 299.00.
 
navychop

navychop

Member of the Month - July 2014!
Pub Member / Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
Jul 20, 2005
53,309
18,438
Northern VA
I'd like to see a link on that. Just because there is a lot of analog cable left, does not mean it's NTSC analog. Note that the frequencies are different, and spaced differently. Read this. Also, consider IRC, HRC etc.
 
harshness

harshness

SatelliteGuys Master
May 5, 2007
16,976
3,015
Salem, OR
I'd like to see a link on that. Just because there is a lot of analog cable left, does not mean it's NTSC analog.
If my 15 year old portable set can pick up basic CATV, you can pretty much bet it is NTSC analog. NTSC is not a set of frequencies.
 
harshness

harshness

SatelliteGuys Master
May 5, 2007
16,976
3,015
Salem, OR
QAM is digital - so they are compliant, because they are listed for cable.
The requirement, as I understand it, is that the device be able to tune ATSC channels if it can tune NTSC channels (they're in the same frequency range). QAM <> ATSC.
 
harshness

harshness

SatelliteGuys Master
May 5, 2007
16,976
3,015
Salem, OR
Just because there is a lot of analog cable left, does not mean it's NTSC analog.
On Planet Earth, NTSC is what is used for analog.
Note that the frequencies are different, and spaced differently.
All of the VHF band channels use the same frequencies and the same broadcast technology (NTSC). Changing or adding frequencies doesn't change the underlying encoding technology.

If you don't believe it, change a CATV connected TV from CABLE to AIR some time and see if you don't see quite a few channels.
 
navychop

navychop

Member of the Month - July 2014!
Pub Member / Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
Jul 20, 2005
53,309
18,438
Northern VA
On Planet Earth, NTSC is what is used for analog.All of the VHF band channels use the same frequencies and the same broadcast technology (NTSC). Changing or adding frequencies doesn't change the underlying encoding technology.

OK, if you want to get snide, in this little argument over the meaning of words, NTSC is NOT what is used for analog on earth. There's also PAL, SECAM, etc.

NTSC was defined for OTA use. Cable came much later. Yes, the frequency offsets are the same. The signal structure itself is basically carried over. But there are differences on cable, often beyond the simple reassignment of actual frequencies. Some degrading or changes in the signal is often done. For example, Media General once owned the cable system in Fairfax VA. They remodulated the signals of even the non-premium channels so that you could NOT plug the cable directly into your TV set and get a viewable picture. They wanted you to rent a box from them for every TV you owned. You could get an aftermarket box that would "correct" the signal for most, but not all channels. Cox Cable bought the franchise and this nonsense went away. But the cableco I had in NC did similar games, to a lesser extent. There are enough cablecos in the country doing similar alterations that you can buy aftermarket boxes to correct the "non standard" signals put out. BTW, MG system was so poor they used two cables, which they called "twin thorax." Poor bandwidth.

NTSC as defined does not allow for such variations. But then again, NTSC was designed for OTA. So any system that is based on NTSC, but allows for changes in frequency assignments, signal modulation variations, oddball encoding, etc, should not be called NTSC, IMO. You seem to feel otherwise. We are arguing over how we want to define certain words. It's not worth the time or effort. Especially since we won't be seeing much of it after- when is it that the requirement drops? 2012?
 
Jim5506

Jim5506

SatelliteGuys Master
Pub Member / Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
7,615
2,453
Lubbock, Texas
My Hitachi 57" RPCRT HDTV has a cable tuner. I use it to watch OTA stations because while the channel names are different and there are channels inserted between VHF and UHF and below channel7 and between channels 4 and 5, the modulation system is still NTSC, frequency is irrelevant, NTSC is the way the information is modulated into the 6MHz bandwidth allocated for each channel.

Unlike ATSC and QAM, there is no other system used in the United States for analog TV transmission of TV whether cable or OTA, well unless you consider IP, which must be converted to NTSC for all analog TV's to see it...
 
harshness

harshness

SatelliteGuys Master
May 5, 2007
16,976
3,015
Salem, OR
NTSC as defined does not allow for such variations. But then again, NTSC was designed for OTA. So any system that is based on NTSC, but allows for changes in frequency assignments, signal modulation variations, oddball encoding, etc, should not be called NTSC, IMO.
I'm not talking about scrambled channels. I'm talking about basic cable; the kind that doesn't require an STB. It is plain vanilla NTSC -- no ups, no extras.

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue, but it is clear to me that TiVo is trying to pull a fast one by offering a device that has an NTSC tuner but no ATSC tuner.
 
navychop

navychop

Member of the Month - July 2014!
Pub Member / Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
Jul 20, 2005
53,309
18,438
Northern VA
I agree that Tivo is pulling a fast one. But the channels I refer to are not scrambled. Just modified. They made of point of differentiating between these and the scrambled, premium channels.
 

Similar threads

M
Replies
29
Views
4K
T-Max
T
W
Replies
31
Views
1K
Will62
W
Z
Replies
5
Views
906
DJdish
DJdish
thetrixrabbit
Replies
34
Views
4K
Nascarken 91xg
Nascarken 91xg

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 0, Members: 0, Guests: 0)

Latest posts

Top