MPEG-4 will initially be MPEG-2!

[gutter]

Like it or not the phrase HDLITE has been used since D* changed resolution. Even Mark Cuban used at a conference in August to warn buyers, providers and distributers that HD is endangered.

 

[BFG]

the whole -lite is silly anyways since we've been debating that as long as it has the 1080i component it's still HD so it's deffinetly not any form of SD+

 

[mike123abc]

10 years ago MPEG-2 encoders were barely working (real time ones). Dish was only able to get a few channels/Transponder. Now they fit 10-12. MPEG-4 will take a few years, I hope they move to full 1920x1080 before packing the TPs with more channels. I could see them eventually reaching full 1920x1080 and 6 programs/TP.

 

[Ilya]

When the channels launch they launch them they WILL be in MPEG2 however only MPEG4 receivers will see them as they will have MPEG4 headers.

The reason for this is MPEG4 is NOT ready for primetime, I actually got them to show me realy MPEG4 yesterday and the motion was jumpy and blocky.

So, since all present HD channels will remain MPEG-2 this year and all upcoming new HD channels will be MPEG-2 as well, at least initially, and as Charlie mentioned yesterday they are planning to add some more HD channels later this year, does it mean that they don't have much choice, but to keep downrezzing everything until MPEG-4 encoders go live? Am I reading this correctly?

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

Ilya I got so many answers from people on that question that it is hard for me to answer.

While I didn't really report it I talked to EVERYONE from Charlie on down about this issue, and Charlie didnt understand what I was talking about and everyone else who was there was from engineering and told me I was preaching to the chior and they wanted full res HD as well.

What makes this more interesting or confusing is Universal HD is in full 1920 x 1080i which has me starting to wonder if this really is a VOOM issue even though VOOM says its not.

 

[n0qcu]

Sorry Bryan but it's not HD. There are only TWO HD resolutions:
1920x1080 and 1280x720 - no other resolution can be considered HD.

 

[Ilya]

Because if that is the case, we can complain about HD-Lite as much as we want, but until MPEG-4 is ready they won't do a thing about it even if they wanted.

 

[CPanther95]

Gary, you seem to seek attention more than anything else. I imagine that your age has more to do with this than anything else.

There's a difference between seeking attention for yourself, and trying to gain attention for issues we should all be screaming about. If only the young ones have the nads to scream, then we need more young 'uns around.

Let the Wall Street analysts and business pundits talk about the sound reasons behind a company's product/marketing decisions. We, on the other hand, should be holding Gary's megaphone - not complaining about the volume.

The Pub issue is separate and he apologized for any misunderstanding - but it's clear that the motives weren't selfish.

 

[mdonnelly]

There's a difference between seeking attention for yourself, and trying to gain attention for issues we should all be screaming about. If only the young ones have the nads to scream, then we need more young 'uns around.
Let the Wall Street analysts and business pundits talk about the sound reasons behind a company's product/marketing decisions. We, on the other hand, should be holding Gary's megaphone - not complaining about the volume.
The Pub issue is separate and he apologized for any misunderstanding - but it's clear that the motives weren't selfish.

I agree to an extent, but I'd suggest that Gary (and others with a cause) shouldn't be inserting their cause into every thread. Make a new topic, and it will attract attention if it's a worthy cause.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

I totally understand what Gary did, and was meaning to bring this issue out in public earlier but with all the travel and sleep I didnt get around to it as quick as I wanted too.

In fact today I am back at work and havent gotten a single thing done that I needed to do today as its so busy here at the office.

 

[Ilya]

Guys, this topic of MPEG-4 vs. MPEG-2 is very important. Let's not derail it. Enough said about Gary. Let everyone draw their own conclusions. Please keep it on topic now.

 

[Gary Murrell]

Yes I apologize again Scott, in the future I understand that you don't want the info on other sites, it was a honest mistake and I didn't mean for it to get back around to the sat guys(being you said to keep it in the pub forum)

Thanks for all your info, that is one of the many reasons I support this site, that and folks actually care about HD quality here, unlike "other" DBS forums

-Gary

 

[M Sparks]

OK, first of all, I think this is a great idea. Maybe not for customers, but it makes perfect sense IN THE LONG RUN. (A concept few seem to understand in this country.) Look at it from DISHs viewpoint...

1)You need to start the MPEG-4 equipment changeover. But the encoders aren't up to snuff yet. And there's no timeline for it to improve, but it should be within a year...hopefully.

2)You have invested tons to get the MPEG-4 receivers ready. But no one wants to buy them because there's no programming yet.

3)You need a way to entice some people to get new equipment.

4)When MPEG-4 IS ready, you can't just switch everything over, because not everyone will have the equipment.

The options are- Put up no new programming and put off the painful/expensive transition until later. In this scenario, no one gets anything.

OR Put up a lot of new programming to encourage the start of the transition, giving people the option to upgrade now or leave their service as is.

This is transparant to most customers. The switch has to happen someday.

One more point...maybe this is the only reason for "HD-Lite". Maybe when the encoders are ready to go, they can go back to full resolution. It's a big maybe, and I'm not counting on it. But this does answer a lot of mysteries. What was up with that tech chat? Why the reduction in Voom channels? What's with all the shuffling?

This actually makes me happier. I can upgrade now instead of wondering what's going to happen. I'll get more HD for my trouble. And I know down the line, when we REALLY get MPEG-4, we'll get better quality, or even more channels, or hopefully both. There's no place to go but up.

 

[rickaren]

Things I Have Learned These Past Few Weeks!

THINGS I HAVE LEARNED THESE PAST FEW WEEKS


DISH did not re-launch VOOM 21 or its former PQ (ever reduced it) as I thought was promised starting in 2006.

My paid HD programming from DISH and DirecTV may never be full high-definition.

Local HD Channels now being offered or planned by DISH & DirecTV may never look as good as the present FREE OTA ones.

VOOM DBS was the future of what satellite TV could be, but may never arrive or may be years from now. Not 2006 or 2007.

After spending ton’s of money on satellite equipment in the past, finally leasing will become the norm for both DISH and DirecTV this year. At last something that makes sense!

Regular SD satellite viewed programming is so compressed that the FREE OTA digital SD local programming is now far superior.

Being “The HD Leader” has nothing to do with high definition viewing.

Buying the latest new SED technology TV set (1920X1080) will be a waist of money due to the lack of available full HD programming.

To be continued:

 

[M Sparks]

I see no reason not to do this except to extort existing customers. Am I missing something ?

Yes.

This "extortion" is going to happen now or later. Might as well be now.

If they wait for MPEG-4 to add programming, we all get nothing now.

If they add it in MPEG-2 but call it MPEG-4, they piss off a portion of the small number of customers who actually understand the issue. Let's say 5%

If they add it in MPEG-2 and leave it that way for the next few years until they finish the transition, they don't get the extra space they may need for their long term plans until it's too late. It also slows down the transition, because there is less incentive to upgrade. If I already had 25 HD channels and HD locals, I doubt I would want to upgrade to get a few more.

If they add it in MPEG-2, but take it all away 6 months from now, they piss off EVERYONE. (Or they have to give everyone a free receiver immediately.)

Sorry, option 2 is the best. And there's no place to go but up.

 

[CPanther95]

This "extortion" is going to happen now or later. Might as well be now.

 

[NightRyder]

Yes.
This "extortion" is going to happen now or later. Might as well be now.

Mmmmm......extortion.....ahhhgggg.....


NightRyder

 

[goaliebob99]

guys i just merged abunch of threads together that are talking about the same thing trying to get everything all in one place as per request

 

[waltinvt]

I do not work with Encoders and do not know the details of what it entails but I have spoken to engineers that do work with these hardware. The problem is not as easy as throwing a switch or opening a door. There are two perspective here that everyone is failing to notice - the technical perspective and the business perspective.

From the Technical perspective they may not have an answer for you or me how long these will take to bring online. Which date would you like them to tell you? Feb 1, Feb 15, March 1, March 15, March 31,... It will be done when the time for it requires it.

From the business perspective, it is all about money. Those that decide to upgrade now have the incentive to get the MPEG-2 new channels disguised as MPEG-4. Those that opt not to do it (and you have and I have the choice) will have to wait. In these upgrades there are let downs and there are happy campers and there are those in between. I am sure that they could have launched the MPEG-2 channels to all of us right now but it is a business decision more than a techinical one. If the techinical part of the problem is resolved before Feb 1 or by Feb 1 will you be happy that the channels are transmitted on MPEG-4? I guess no one will be able to see them unless you have MPEG-4 equipment.

In a nutshell, I can see why they are doing what they are doing. It is not pretty and it look bad in the eyes of some but it will be a temporary solution to a technical problem. As I said before you will be screaming again if they turn the MPEG-4 on Feb 2 and you do not have MPEG-4 equipment. Dish cannot win on this one. Anywhich way they do it, there will be some unhappy customers.

It is SOOOOOOOO frustrating that I can't make myself clear. It's not so much that there's no MPEG4 yet and it's not so much the upgrade $$. It's the deception used.

If MPEG4 was ready now and the deal was truely as they presented it, I'd still be mildly upset at the upgrade costs for 921 / 942 owners but the whole deal would make reasonable sense.

Look what DISH has put 921 and recently 942 users through in terms of bugs and hardware frustrations; broken promises; degradition of HD PQ, etc and now they make new channels available that these units COULD receive (at least until MEPG4 is ready) but instead they want these people to pay $300 + throw in their current receiver to be able to see these new channels that probably won't be MPEG4 for another year.

I don't care how some of you people rationalize it - it stinks - just more for some than others.

 

[waltinvt]

(Bolding mine.)


Jeez, the way you put that makes Charlie Ergen sound like Ernst Stavro Blofeld.

Ergen.......Charles Ergen

And as Charlie Goldfinger said to Bond on the laser table when Bond said "what to you expect me to do"? : "I expect you to BUY mister bond - I expect you to BUY.