NFL Lockout thread

What about my reply before...the lack of acknowledgement is why some people think the owners actually care more for the game than their own pockets....

What are you talking about? All the owners are doing is talking, the players insist on litigating and are currently waiting on a court date that is not even expected to rule in their favor. The players have not countered either of the last 2 offers presented by the NFL, who's not acknowledging who?
 
meStevo said:
What are you talking about? All the owners are doing is talking, the players insist on litigating and are currently waiting on a court date that is not even expected to rule in their favor. The players have not countered either of the last 2 offers presented by the NFL, who's not acknowledging who?

There were no lawyers involved until AFTER the owners locked out the players...the players did NOT want to end the current agreement....the owners did because in the next agreement/negociations with the networks and the cable/satellite companies...they knew their there piece of the pie would not be as big..so concocted this "better for the business model" BS that got alot of you hook, line and sinker....basically trying to trick the fans that they(the owners) were 'thinking the best interest for the entire league' when in reality it has nothing to do with that.
 
There were no lawyers involved until AFTER the owners locked out the players...the players did NOT want to end the current agreement....the owners did because in the next agreement/negociations with the networks and the cable/satellite companies...they knew their there piece of the pie would not be as big..so concocted this "better for the business model" BS that got alot of you hook, line and sinker....basically trying to trick the fans that they(the owners) were 'thinking the best interest for the entire league' when in reality it has nothing to do with that.
So 53 men on a team times 32 teams! Not counting practice squad. Also not counting the few hundred dollars the old timers are finally getting because the new players wanted it. Greedy bastards:rolleyes:.. Yes the greedy players just taking from the poor poor owners.. Breaking their body's and killing themselves. Yea yea i know they don't have to play football. Yea well the owners don't have to own! Sell the team so you won't have to file for food stamps!
 
BlackHitachi said:
So 53 men on a team times 32 teams! Not counting practice squad. Also not counting the few hundred dollars the old timers are finally getting because the new players wanted it. Greedy bastards:rolleyes:.. Yes the greedy players just taking from the poor poor owners.. Breaking their body's and killing themselves. Yea yea i know they don't have to play football. Yea well the owners don't have to own! Sell the team so you won't have to file for food stamps!

I am assuming you agree with me? No? Lol...
 
There were no lawyers involved until AFTER the owners locked out the players...the players did NOT want to end the current agreement....the owners did because in the next agreement/negociations with the networks and the cable/satellite companies...they knew their there piece of the pie would not be as big..so concocted this "better for the business model" BS that got alot of you hook, line and sinker....basically trying to trick the fans that they(the owners) were 'thinking the best interest for the entire league' when in reality it has nothing to do with that.

Do you even realize what the players are suing for? They are suing that the NFL is in violation of antitrust law by imposing any rules on a non-union workforce (things like free agency, drug testing, etc). The NFL locked out the decertified union because it was illegal for them to conduct business as usual. The NFL is being sued, not the other way around.

Right now, the NFL wants to talk, the class counsel (including De Smith) are just sitting there arms crossed waiting for a court verdict to finally go their way rather than continuing to negotiate. The players litigation strategy has made it nearly impossible for the players to discuss a deal without compromising their legal arguments. Meanwhile you have current and former players in the media Like Warner and Snelling saying they need to fold/deal, and guys like DeMaurice Smith and Chester Pitts saying that the players are in for the long haul.

When the 8th circuit rules against the players, it's going to be interesting how the unhappy players react, since it seems to be the inevitable conclusion and it's then proven that they've done nothing but waste time.

You're the one that seems to have bought hook line and sinker into PR here, trying to revise history to make yourself sound like you're on the right side of an argument. The players PR is FUD, saying the NFL is suing to not play their game, etc. Or are you suggesting the economy is no different than it was in 2006? Find someone who bought a house in 2006 (and still has it) and ask them what they think of their payments compared to the guy next door who moved in last year. That's a microcosm of the change that's happened in such a short time, the world is a very different place and things don't cost what they used to especially when it comes to things like stadiums.
 
So 53 men on a team times 32 teams! Not counting practice squad. Also not counting the few hundred dollars the old timers are finally getting because the new players wanted it. Greedy bastards:rolleyes:.. Yes the greedy players just taking from the poor poor owners.. Breaking their body's and killing themselves. Yea yea i know they don't have to play football. Yea well the owners don't have to own! Sell the team so you won't have to file for food stamps!

The NFL has offered the players multiple raises (in 3 forms that I'm aware of: rookie salary slotting increase the money available for the rest of the roster, close some of the loopholes in the minimum salary rules, and actually increasing the cap to $160m over 4 years which is what the players requested), better benefits, better workout conditions, increased contract guarantees in the event of injury and a 60% increase to alumni benefits. Yup, sounds like greed to me. Or maybe it sounds like everything that a player could want in a new CBA. The only thing that is missing is what should the NFL do with money in excess of the projected revenue that lays out that plan? It would probably just go in the owners pockets, and to things like stadium upgrades and new construction... or maybe paid to players in dividends? No idea what the players want because when that was offered March 11th the players walked away and started the process that has done little but erode any leverage they had developed since.
 
Do you even realize what the players are suing for? They are suing that the NFL is in violation of antitrust law by imposing any rules on a non-union workforce (things like free agency, drug testing, etc). The NFL locked out the decertified union because it was illegal for them to conduct business as usual. The NFL is being sued, not the other way around.

Right now, the NFL wants to talk, the class counsel (including De Smith) are just sitting there arms crossed waiting for a court verdict to finally go their way rather than continuing to negotiate. The players litigation strategy has made it nearly impossible for the players to discuss a deal without compromising their legal arguments.

You're the one that seems to have bought hook line and sinker into PR here, trying to revise history to make yourself sound like you're on the right side of an argument. The players PR is FUD, saying the NFL is suing to not play their game, etc. Or are you suggesting the economy is no different than it was in 2006? Find someone who bought a house in 2006 (and still has it) and ask them what they think of their payments compared to the guy next door who moved in last year. That's a microcosm of the change that's happened in such a short time, the world is a very different place and things don't cost what they used to especially when it comes to things like stadiums.

AGAIN...there were NO lawyers involved UNTIL the owners locked out because they were not gonna get a bigger piece of the pie. In 2006, the owners knew that they were getting into, and they signed ANYWAY. There is no such thing as a sure thing. You are probably the same guy who sticks up for an owner when he goes off and over pays a free agent right after they complain about 'the economics of the game' and shrug it of to boys being boys. Sorry, you maybe that gullible....but sure as sh** ain't. Now I am not gonna sit here and say the players have never been greedy....but they will NEVER be greedier than the owners.
 
AGAIN...there were NO lawyers involved UNTIL the owners locked out because they were not gonna get a bigger piece of the pie. In 2006, the owners knew that they were getting into, and they signed ANYWAY. There is no such thing as a sure thing. You are probably the same guy who sticks up for an owner when he goes off and over pays a free agent right after they complain about 'the economics of the game' and shrug it of to boys being boys. Sorry, you maybe that gullible....but sure as sh** ain't. Now I am not gonna sit here and say the players have never been greedy....but they will NEVER be greedier than the owners.

Again, you're revising history to try and back your bias against the owners. The owners didn't lock out the players 'because they were not gonna get a bigger piece of the pie', they locked them out because they decertified. It became illegal for the NFL to do business as normal.

Ignoring the ignorant personal attack, I'm discussing the lockout and your misperception of the facts, not trying to rank the greediness of the players and owners. There are surely greedy owners, but the owners who have been running teams for decades are why we have the game we enjoy, not your average player looking for a payday.

So since the players haven't proposed, how should all the extra money be spent? Or do you want to see things like guaranteed $100m 3 year contracts in the NFL? No matter who 'wins' I sure as hell don't.
 
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meStevo said:
Again, you're revising history to try and back your bias against the owners. The owners didn't lock out the players 'because they were not gonna get a bigger piece of the pie', they locked them out because they decertified. It became illegal for the NFL to do business as normal.

Ignoring the ignorant personal attack, I'm discussing the lockout and your misperception of the facts, not trying to rank the greediness of the players and owners. There are surely greedy owners, but the owners who have been running teams for decades are why we have the game we enjoy, not your average player looking for a payday.

So since the players haven't proposed, how should all the extra money be spent? Or do you want to see things like guaranteed $100m 3 year contracts in the NFL? No matter who 'wins' I sure as hell don't.

When did the players decertify? after the owners killed the CBA...correct?
 
When did the players decertify? after the owners killed the CBA...correct?

The players decertified before the expiration of an extension of the previous CBA on 3/11. The owners killed nothing, you can keep going back to that as if it makes you sound right but it doesn't. The NFLPA is suing the NFL for applying the rules to run the league to a non-union workforce. The NFL did not introduce lawyers to the equation until it was to defend themselves from the NFLPA lawsuit. The option to opt out of the previous CBA was agreed to by both the union and the NFL. This same option will likely be in the next CBA, and used by the union to opt out of it early should they feel they think they need better terms prior to it's normal expiration.

Next loaded pointless question?
 
meStevo said:
The players decertified before the expiration of an extension of the previous CBA on 3/11. The owners killed nothing, you can keep going back to that as if it makes you sound right but it doesn't. The NFLPA is suing the NFL for applying the rules to run the league to a non-union workforce. The NFL did not introduce lawyers to the equation until it was to defend themselves from the NFLPA lawsuit. The option to opt out of the previous CBA was agreed to by both the union and the NFL. This same option will likely be in the next CBA, and used by the union to opt out of it early should they feel they think they need better terms prior to it's normal expiration.

Next loaded pointless question?

They decertified under a threat of a lockout dude. Plain and simple.
 
They decertified under a threat of a lockout dude. Plain and simple.

Your point? You seem pretty content having it both ways. You attack the NFL for introducing lawyers into the situation (which was 100% wrong) and then defend the players for decertification and suing the NFL? The players are the ones that walked away and decertified, the NFL could have declined to extend the deadline twice and locked the players out if they were so anxious to do so. Instead that's not what happened and the players are why we are in the current stalemate. They decided to stop talking and start litigating.

At least your ranting replies haven't gotten shorter, harder to be wrong then. Or maybe you're just out of pro-player propaganda and obviously don't want to discuss facts.
 
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Owners vs. Players in Football’s Labor Dispute : The New Yorker

The past weeks have seen two big labor disputes in the U.S. One is between Republican politicians and public-employee unions in Wisconsin—a fight over profound ideological differences about government spending and the proper role of unions. The other is the clash between N.F.L. owners and players over the owners’ desire for a new collective-bargaining agreement. The reason for this fight is much less complicated: it’s about very rich businessmen thinking that they should be even richer.
With the possible exception of the members of OPEC, N.F.L. owners have pretty much the coziest business arrangement imaginable: they’re effectively members of a cartel—able to limit competition, enhance bargaining power, and hold down costs. Instead of competing against each other for TV money, the owners share it, reducing risk and guaranteeing steady revenue regardless of how well they run their teams. The result of all this was nicely summed up by Richard Walden, head of sports finance at JPMorgan Chase, who said, “I’ve never seen an N.F.L. team lose money.”
So why are the owners unhappy? Well, the downturn has made it harder to raise ticket prices and to get states and cities to subsidize new stadiums. And players are the biggest expense that teams have: they get sixty per cent of whatever the league makes above a billion dollars. The owners think that’s too high and want players to accept sixty per cent of all revenue above two billion, which works out to be a pay cut of some six hundred million dollars.
Now, modern economies have a very effective mechanism for deciding if salaries are really too high: it’s called the free market. That’s how most people’s salaries are set, after all, including those of major-league baseball players and European soccer players. But N.F.L. owners have never liked the idea of a free labor market, which might cost them more and also threaten the league’s competitive balance. Instead, the league typically caps player salaries, a system that supposedly makes it easier for smaller franchises—like the Super Bowl-winning Green Bay Packers—to contend, and prevents rich teams from dominating, the way rich teams do in baseball and European soccer. The salary cap, the N.F.L. argues, is good for the business as a whole; parity makes the over-all pie bigger, leaving everyone better off.
This is not necessarily true; research shows that salary caps don’t always improve competitive balance, and soccer’s enormous fan base suggests that parity is not a requirement for popularity. But, even if it is true, what’s best for the league isn’t necessarily best for the players. Unlike the rest of us, they don’t get to choose where they want to work—they have to play for the team that drafts them—and they can be traded at will. Free agency is tightly regulated, and careers are short; the average N.F.L. player is in the league for just three and a half years. And, despite the violence of the game, contracts are not guaranteed. It’s not such a raw deal: the players’ share of the league’s revenue is similar to the share that players get in other major professional sports. But it’s almost certainly less than they would ask for (and get) in any free labor market, given the fact that football players have shorter careers than other athletes, less job security, and greater risk of serious injury. In the current arrangement, the players essentially accept a guaranteed share of over-all revenue in exchange for tolerating a status quo that in most other businesses would run afoul of antitrust law. You’d think that the owners would count their blessings. Instead, they are demanding that the players give back some of their income, and are offering little in exchange.



The owners argue that cutting the players’ share will let teams put more money into things like stadiums and new media, and that these investments will, in the long run, make everyone richer. The problem is that owners and players don’t benefit equally when football becomes more profitable. Sure, everyone’s income increases, but the owners also see the value of their teams rise; a 2004 study found that new stadiums increased the value of franchises by an average of thirty-five per cent, an effect that, along with a boom in television revenue, has caused the value of the average franchise to triple in the past twelve years. This increase in value benefits the owners alone, and explains why so many of them are now billionaires. If you work for Google or Apple, stock options give you a chance to share in the increasing value of the company. In the N.F.L., nothing like this happens; the players, though rich, are just working stiffs like the rest of us.
You might say that that’s capitalism—those who provide the capital for an enterprise deserve to reap the profits. But the N.F.L. isn’t capitalist in any traditional sense. The league is much more like the trusts that dominated American business in the late nineteenth century, before they were outlawed. Its goal is not to embrace competition but to tame it, making the owners’ businesses less risky and more profitable. Unions are often attacked for trying to interfere with the natural workings of the market, but in the case of football it’s the owners, not the union, who are the real opponents of the free market. They have created a socialist paradise for themselves that happens to bring with it capitalist-size profits. Bully for them. But in a contest between millionaire athletes and billionaire socialists it’s the guys on the field who deserve to win. ?

 
Ok, so you know how to copy and paste, what about the pro-player article that ignores anything the NFL has offered to get the deal done did you like or want to comment on? So you want no salary cap, no rules on free agency, etc? That system sure would benefit the players named in the Brady lawsuit as players who are in the top 5% of the league... but how do you think that will affect the other 95%? How do you think that will affect these mythical 'only in the league 3.5 years' players with no minimum contracts? With no veteran minimum I think the number would contract even more. Without a veteran minimum we won't see some guys stick around as long since they won't be able to make what they do under the current system.

You really think the financially strapped Raiders and Buccaneers are going to spend the money to continue to compete if they have no restrictions on their spending? Teams like the Chiefs will spend less to reflect the income available in their market if there wasn't revenue sharing, how does that benefit the players? How does that benefit the league and continue to offer the parity that we see now?

Also not mentioned, the draft would be gone in a 'free market' NFL. You could also potentially have fresh out of high school players trying out for NFL teams, something which may be challenged shortly with the stupidity going on in Ohio.
 
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Your point? You seem pretty content having it both ways. You attack the NFL for introducing lawyers into the situation (which was 100% wrong) and then defend the players for decertification and suing the NFL? The players are the ones that walked away and decertified, the NFL could have declined to extend the deadline twice and locked the players out if they were so anxious to do so. Instead that's not what happened and the players are why we are in the current stalemate. They decided to stop talking and start litigating.

At least your ranting replies haven't gotten shorter, harder to be wrong then. Or maybe you're just out of pro-player propaganda and obviously don't want to discuss facts.

NO ..... the NFL LOCKED THEM OUT and THEN they quit talking and decertified.
 
NO ..... the NFL LOCKED THEM OUT and THEN they quit talking and decertified.

The players walked away from negotiations prior to the 2nd extension of the deadline, decertified and the next day were locked out, sorry Jimbo.

http://archive.chicagobreakingsport...rrive-for-talks-brees-apologizes-to-fans.html

The union representing NFL players pushed away from the negotiating table and decertified Friday, an extreme measure that leaves the federal courts to determine the immediate future of the nation's most popular sports league.

By decertifying -- dissolving itself as a union -- the NFL Players Assn. has cleared the way for individual players to file antitrust lawsuits against the league, which likely could be barred from locking out those players. According to multiple reports, however, the league officially instituted a lockout after midnight on the East Coast.

In the immediate aftermath of the decertification, a group of players that included three of the most popular quarterbacks -- Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Drew Brees -- filed an antitrust lawsuit against the league in U.S. District Court to prevent a lockout. The players allege that the NFL conspired to deny their ability to market their services.
 
Ok, so you know how to copy and paste, what about the pro-player article that ignores anything the NFL has offered to get the deal done did you like or want to comment on? So you want no salary cap, no rules on free agency, etc? That system sure would benefit the players named in the Brady lawsuit as players who are in the top 5% of the league... but how do you think that will affect the other 95%? How do you think that will affect these mythical 'only in the league 3.5 years' players with no minimum contracts? With no veteran minimum I think the number would contract even more. Without a veteran minimum we won't see some guys stick around as long since they won't be able to make what they do under the current system.

You really think the financially strapped Raiders and Buccaneers are going to spend the money to continue to compete if they have no restrictions on their spending? Teams like the Chiefs will spend less to reflect the income available in their market if there wasn't revenue sharing, how does that benefit the players? How does that benefit the league and continue to offer the parity that we see now?

Also not mentioned, the draft would be gone in a 'free market' NFL. You could also potentially have fresh out of high school players trying out for NFL teams, something which may be challenged shortly with the stupidity going on in Ohio.
I messed up and meant to highlight. No the vets did not want to give rookies big contacts. Going to work at the moment but will do a better job when i am done later. Yeah i can copy and paste!!:rolleyes:
 
Your point? You seem pretty content having it both ways. You attack the NFL for introducing lawyers into the situation (which was 100% wrong) and then defend the players for decertification and suing the NFL? The players are the ones that walked away and decertified, the NFL could have declined to extend the deadline twice and locked the players out if they were so anxious to do so. Instead that's not what happened and the players are why we are in the current stalemate. They decided to stop talking and start litigating.

At least your ranting replies haven't gotten shorter, harder to be wrong then. Or maybe you're just out of pro-player propaganda and obviously don't want to discuss facts.

My point is very simple and it has been from day one. The owners WANTED this because they did no like the CBA they had in place. The owners expressed that to the players and told they they were ending the CBA. The players said fine. The owners stated they wanted a better deal for themselves, a bigger piece of the pie and were willing to lockout the players. The players said fine, we will sue. The owners said fine. And that is it. Plain and simple. My stance has not changed from day one. It is not been a matter of wanting it both ways. This is a matter of EGOS(the players) vs. GREED(the owners). I have sided with the players. You can curb EGO by simply cutting or benching a player. SIMPLE. Can't curb the owners greed. The fans can boycott the game if they want, but we won't because we as fans do have the balls to do and the owners, knowing that this IS the most popular sport for Americans to watch, know it.

So again, you keep sitting in the lap of those owners, I will sit on my couch and wait for this to end.

Have fun.....
 
My point is very simple and it has been from day one. The owners WANTED this because they did no like the CBA they had in place. The owners expressed that to the players and told they they were ending the CBA. The players said fine. The owners stated they wanted a better deal for themselves, a bigger piece of the pie and were willing to lockout the players. The players said fine, we will sue. The owners said fine. And that is it. Plain and simple. My stance has not changed from day one. It is not been a matter of wanting it both ways. This is a matter of EGOS(the players) vs. GREED(the owners). I have sided with the players. You can curb EGO by simply cutting or benching a player. SIMPLE. Can't curb the owners greed. The fans can boycott the game if they want, but we won't because we as fans do have the balls to do and the owners, knowing that this IS the most popular sport for Americans to watch, know it.

So again, you keep sitting in the lap of those owners, I will sit on my couch and wait for this to end.

Have fun.....

Still making things up... These teams are worth a billion dollars because of the work the owners have put into them, some over decades. Nobody has ever been 'fine' with a lockout or litigation, it was all saber rattling until these things actually happened. The owners ended up never offensively locking out the players to get a deal until after the players decertified and walked away from negotiations.

Litigation is the strategy the players are using to get this resolved in their favor. It's just not going the way they'd hoped with the defensive lockout being upheld (likely permanently) and the players sitting there like you, on their couch, instead of negotiating.

If you want to just stick your head in the sand and rationalize whatever it is that makes you feel better about picking the players simply say that, because you've just made up stuff over and over in this thread.

You are having it both ways, you claim owners and teams are holding cities hostage for new stadiums but don't want the NFL to have the means to be better suited to build them on their own, well which is it?

You attack the NFL for bringing the lawyers into it because they locked the players out, the union is the one that didn't want to keep talking and instead decertified, but the owners are at fault because they exercised an option that was agreed to by both the union and the ownership? It is illegal to operate the NFL under current rules with no CBA or union, that is why there is a lockout. That is what the Brady lawsuit is suing for.

You attack me, call me gullible, because I stated the business model is what needs to change, then what are you suggesting? Do you want the players to get 50-50? You want a $300m salary cap?
 

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