One Meter Primestar Mini-Bud Experiment

[linuxman]

Hey Lak7,

Yes, I know some others who say they have theirs rotated that way, but this is the way SatAV instructed me to do it.

BTW, the blind scan just finished and I have 27 channels both H and V including EWTN which is why I started this experiment.

Some have some pixeling, but some are very watchable. I think they all will be when the scaler is secure and tuned.

A piece of tape came loose during the scan, and most of the V channels didn't get scanned in, but not before the TPs got in.

I'll try again after I get it secured.

EDIT: I want to thank all of you for your input especially Anole and his invaluable insight to make this experiement a success.

I anticipate it being much more successful after the final touches have been put on it.

 

[Lak7]

As long as the Hs are H and the Vs are V.

 

[linuxman]

As long as the Hs are H and the Vs are V.

Oh yes, they are in the right place.

 

[Anole]

how to orient some of the C-band LNBfs

Anole pix of skew for CK-1 and BSC-621 LNBf's
http://www.satelliteguys.us/1281374-post50.html

OnceWasLost: how to orient the B1Sat
http://www.satelliteguys.us/c-band-satellite-discussion/142224-b1sat-stacked-c-band-lnbf.html

 

[gremlin411]

just take some half inch wide flat bar aluminum and bend it and screw it to the arms and the scalar ring. will that work?

 

[linuxman]

just take some half inch wide flat bar aluminum and bend it and screw it to the arms and the scalar ring. will that work?

Yes it should, but I want to try and avoid actually screwing into the support arms. I have some of that aluminum bar stock here, and I might give that a try, but I am thinking hose clamps to clamp the part to the support arms. That would hold it pretty securely without penetrating the arms.

I also thought about some steel strap with holes in it. I have some of that too. I'll have to consider both and see which one is more flexible.

Thanks Gremlin!

 

[gremlin411]

you are right the hose clamps would be better. I think the steel strap would be more user friendly.

 

[linuxman]

you are right the hose clamps would be better. I think the steel strap would be more user friendly.

Yes, but may not be rigid enough. Just have to see.

 

[gabshere]

In the mean time, some of you give me some ideas of how to secure the scaler ring. Please

conduit hanger and small L bracket to connect to the scaler

 

[Anole]

T-off !

I hope I don't have to make a picture to convey this idea, but here goes the word version:

What about a T-shaped little piece of aluminum, cookie tin, tin can, etc...?
Top of the T needs to be less than 2" wide by about the width of the scalar ring (1/2" ?)
Drill a hole in each end, and apply it across the slot you cut in edge of the scalar .
Secure with a screw, threaded into the scalar ring (requires tapping the ring) 6x32 should be fine.

The lower or vertical stroke of the T needs to be maybe 2" long and again 1/2" wide.
Secure the lower arm of the T with one hole at the bottom , to a screw hole in the conduit connectors you show on the dish arms, now.

For this to all fit, the top of the T needs about a 30° bend in the vertical stroke, just below the cross-bar at the top of the T.

Just a thought.

 

[linuxman]

I liked George's and Anole's ideas, but chose to go with the steel strap this morning at least, just to get some satellites scanned in.

The steel strap works pretty well, but as I feared is not quite rigid enough. I am going to Lowe's this afternoon and see if I can get a plastic washer of some kind to slip on the front side of the scaler and put another hose clamp to snug it up. That should give it the rigidity needed to keep it secure as it swings across the arc.

I re-scanned G11 and ended up with 30 channels. 3620 H is rock solid at 30% SQ, but EWTN Mux is only about 15% SQ, not quite there and pixelated but coming in. The blackout mux on the V side is about 25% SQ and doesn't pixelate. A little skew adjustment might bring EWTN to life. The Word Network is about 30% too.

On the other hand, the good news is that the 12060 V test cards on Ku are still at 75% SQ, so the CK-1 does get both C and Ku at the same focal point and the same position.

I swung the dish over to G13 to see if it can pick up the strong channels there. It is scanning right now and might be finished by the time I am done posting this. :yikes:

I think I may have found a home for the CK-1.

Here are a couple of pics of the steel strap in action.



EDIT: BTW, there are some people who would put up one of these dishes with the CK-1 just to get the 3720 H mux on G11.

 

[linuxman]

Picked up RFD and LCN on G13 C-Band. RFD is only 15% Sq, but is very watchable. LCN is about 10% and pixelates badly.

Moved to G16, and picked up the nets. WooHoo!!! Solid 30% SQ, picture is great. I manually entered the TP and SR, and now have it blind scanning.

EDIT: Picked up a total of 13 channels on G16. 8 of them with good SQ and all watchable the others were HD, but they were at about 20% SQ, so may not be watchable. Don't know because my receiver won't do HD.

Moved to AMC 6, still had 75% SQ on the 12053 V Ku mux, but couldn't pull any C-Band channels in. I think I can get at least 3 channels there, but will have to wait until the scaler is more secure and can fine tune a little better.

That's probably all for today. Going to Lowes to try and figure out something to solidify the scaler, and then somewhere with my wife. (unknown until 5 minutes ago, Oh Well) Will pick up tomorrow.

So far the experiment is a huge success.

 

[satcom1]

Primestar C/KU Bracket

Linuxnan-

Good Job! Primestar is a great dish! Good to see we have confirmation of DREAMFOX1 reports, makes it solid.

I put this idea down on paper for you. It gives you a little more adjustment to Scalar ring and LNBF. I made my bracket from 3/4" Pine better if you use that 1" Corian.

 

[linuxman]

Thanks Satcom!

I will give the idea some thought when I get ready to make something permanent.

I found some objects at Lowes that will help me solidify what I have now, and it too is fully adjustable, just a little more cumbersome.

I don't think I am going to need to adjust the scaler any though, may move the LNBf in or out a little just for my own confirmation that the focal point is the same for C and Ku.

Right now both bands are doing very well and I think both will get better with the feed pointed directly at the center of the dish.

 

[Ga.Boy]

Support for scaler ring

Looking at your pictures, it appears by the depth of your cut-in slots for the support arms that you could drill or hole-saw 3ea. 3/4" holes thru the scaler at the angle that the support arms are now and still have some of the outside ring intact. Rotate the ring 30 degrees or so and drill angle holes. Where the support tubing comes thur the backside of the scaler put another coupling, if coupling is too long, saw and use half coupling. By moving one set of couplings in or out you can adjust LNB to the center of dish. If needed, Black tye-raps will take the elements awhile.

 

[SatelliteAV]

Great experimentation! This would be the perfect set-up to test different receivers for tuner sensitivity, especially with high FEC ratio SCPC transponders.

 

[linuxman]

Hey Ga. Boy,

That is an excellent idea, but the angle of the support arms are such that moving them inside the outer ring on the bottom makes them stick into the space where the LNBF sits, so that won't work. It is a little difficult to get the CK-1 in the exact same location that the OEM Primestar LNBF was, and I don't want to get too far away from that position.

Excellent idea Brian!!

I was just thinking that last night. I wonder how a different receiver would interpret these signals, and would they display them like this one does. BTW, I am using a used Pansat 2500a to tune the dish in. The normal receiver that runs this motor is my Fortec Star IR5400NA. I've got the wires run inside now, and I am going to hook it up and see what it does with these signals. Might be very interesting.

Got the LNBF solid in my hand made holder now, made some minor adjustments to skew, and in and out. I settled on 28-3/4 inch for the focal distance. Moving the LNBF in and out had no effect on the C-Band signals, but it had a major effect on Ku, which is why I have it where it is set now.

I was able to blind scan a single C-Band TP on AMC6 at 72W, but no channels.

So to wrap up the experiment, I have had a wonderful time with this project. Is it for everyone? No! Is it going to be reliable C-Band signal? Can't answer that until the first big rain or snow storm! Can you get both C-Band and Ku channels with a 1M Primestar dish? You can using the CK-1 LNBF.

Is it worth the effort? If I was the holder of a 1M Ku dish and I was only getting Ku channels, I would say it would be well worth the effort even if the C-Band wasn't totally reliable in bad weather. I think you should be able to easily pick up another 25 English speaking channels across the arc, and some of them very nice channels.

I also took a look on SatAV's website, and he is still selling the CK-1 and also has a factory built mount for a Geo-Sat Pro 1.2 or bigger dish using the CK-1.

Thanks for everyone's help and suggestions. That is what this site is all about. Having fund and helping each other figure out how to do what is not supposed to be done.

One of these days when I get bored again, I might stick a C-Rotor on it just for grins.

Here are the pics of the solidified holder:

 

[satcom1]

Experiment conclusions

Experiment conclusions


Too bad you’ve wrapped things up, I wanted to send you my BSC-621-2 for comparative purposes.

Did you give any thought to the speed at which one could change C-Band channels on a mini-BUD vs. a big 10’ Prime Focus C-Band, lumbering, dish?

Quote Linuxman-
“Got the LNBF solid in my hand made holder now, made some minor adjustments to skew, and in and out. I settled on 28-3/4 inch for the focal distance. Moving the LNBF in and out had no effect on the C-Band signals, but it had a major effect on Ku, which is why I have it where it is set now.”

Makes sense if you check the f/d specs for this LNBF KU vs. C-Band.

From spec sheet;

F/D Ratio: 0.28~0.42 C-band 0.6 KU band

In any case it's some pretty interesting stuff and should give folks that can't put up a BUD an option.

 

[Anole]

not done, yet

It's difficult to be sure from the angles of the last two shots, but...

- shouldn't the scalar be flush or ahead of the leading edge of the LNBf? (closer to the dish)
I don't see anything that would prevent testing that theory, ...
...and if you could pick up a few points on C- it'd be well worth it.

- there looks to be room to slide in a conical scalar without any hacksawing to it.
Reports from 2005, when this project was first tried, did indicate a noticeable improvement with one.
Again, a few more points on C-band is the goal, as you seem to have adequate if not outstanding Ku.



As for your success, it's hard to know what to credit it to.
I'm sure careful alignment played a big part! -

- it appears the 1m round dish may have an advantage on the elliptical 84e's
Perhaps we can chalk this one up to: Size does matter. - - ?
Or maybe the area?

- over the years, I thought users found the BSC-621 at least adequate for C-band.
Is the CK-1 really better?

- over the years, I thought the BSC-621 had been lackluster for Ku, ...
...and poor at getting both C & Ku to focus at a common point.
Is the CK-1 really better?
You did have some pretty good success with the CK-1 on one of your Birdviews, last year.
Was that because the CK-1 is a better product, or just very careful tuning?
It was on the big (how big is it?) Birdview scalar?

- do you still have a baseline set of signal/quality levels from Ku and the original 1m Primestar LNB?
That would tell a lot about how the dish/CK-1 combo was performing on Ku.
It's a shame ya don't have a duplicate dish, with the stock LNB . . . or any other Ku LNB, to compare.
I'd like to see how an Invacom or one of your Sky Mexico compare to the CK-1 on Ku.

- back on C-band, what about your receiver sensitivity? Using a Pansat 2500a?
Got anything more common so that other users can compare with ?
Perhaps a Visionsat IV-200 or a Coolsat 5000?
Or, whatever the 120cm C-band folks are using - :up -


Last category:

- where is the adjacent-bird interference?

- or, are we just fighting for any signal at all?

 

[voomvoom]

Thanks for the entertainment Fred. This thread has been informative and satisfying, with lots of good and useful ideas. Although most of us know it's not practical to use such a small dish for C-Band, we also know it can get C-Band and it's fun to experiment with. It's even fun to read about it. Good job, and keep the fun coming. I'm now waiting for your next project. I'm sure it will be enjoyable, as they always are.
Thanks Fred..!!!