Question about planting poles for big dishes

[Dee_Ann]

Hi guys,

Question. I'm desperate to get those big dishes up so I asked my dad to help me with this as it's not something I can do alone.

Here's what I am trying to put up.

• 10' aluminum mesh Cband dish
• 6' solid steel Cband dish (the $70 special from a few months back)

I'm trying to figure out how long the poles need to be.

The 10' dish. I'm figuring it like this. There is like 5' from the center of the dish to the edge. And I need it to be at least 2' off the ground so I can mow beneath it with at least a push mower. So that means I need 7' of pole above the ground to get that clearance. Right? So then there is the problem of below ground. I'm thinking that 5' of pole in the ground with an 18" hole full of cement is just barely going to be enough, considering we get a lot of hurricanes here. We've had some BAD hurricanes too.

My dad tells me that a 12' pole is all he can carry in his van.

Do you think 5' of pole in the ground is enough to hold up a 10' dish?


Then there is the 6' dish. Center to edge is three feet. Add two feet of moving clearance and that's 5' needed above ground. My dad says he can turn down a short piece of pipe to fit the odd size fitting then slip that into a larger pipe and weld it in place. So if he puts an 18" extension in the main pipe that would mean I would only need like 4' of it sticking out of the ground then the turned down extension would give me enough to exceed the 2' of ground clearance.

BUT, how much to put in the ground? Would say, 4' of pipe in the ground with an 18" hole full of cement be enough? Being that the thing is solid, it's going the be a bigger problem with wind, strong storms and hurricanes. But my feeling on it is, it's flimsy, I bent it up pretty good trying to put it together and the first hurricane we get, it will be curb material, IE trashed.

I'm thinking that an 8' pipe would be enough for the smaller dish, 4' in the ground, 4' out and the 18" extension would give me 5' out of the ground.

So if we bought a 12' by 3 1/2 pole and an 8' by 3 1/2 pole, would that get it done right?

Also, how do you figure out how much cement to buy? I know it's going to be a LOT but I don't want to over buy or under buy the stuff, I want to get as close to the right amount as possible with as little waste as possible. I'm sure there's some nifty math trick to figure it out but I'm horrible at math, even basic math gives me grief..

Thank a million!

 

[hwm]

In Texas you don't need to worry about going deep to beat frost heaving/displacment. 5 feet in the ground should be more than enough.

You will need a lot of concrete to provide enough weight to anchor them against the wind. Way more than you will want to mix by hand in a wheelbarrow. When I set the ten foot dish pictured in my avatar, I used a small concrete mixer.

I dug the hole for my ten-footer 4 feet deep, and 2 foot square. This required about 16 cubic feet of concrete. The 80 pound paper sacks of premix concrete give a yield of .66 cubic feet per bag. It would take 24- 25 bags of 80 LB premix for my 2 x 2 x 4 ft hole.

Weld some "ears" on your pole where they will be inside the concrete, so they can't spin in the concrete when stressed.

My ten foot dish has withstood 70+ MPH winds that knocked down several large Pine trees nearby.

Hope this helps

 

[Dee_Ann]

In Texas you don't need to worry about going deep to beat frost heaving/displacment. 5 feet in the ground should be more than enough.

You will need a lot of concrete to provide enough weight to anchor them against the wind. Way more than you will want to mix by hand in a wheelbarrow. When I set the ten foot dish pictured in my avatar, I used a small concrete mixer.

I dug the hole for my ten-footer 4 feet deep, and 2 foot square. This required about 16 cubic feet of concrete. The 80 pound paper sacks of premix concrete give a yield of .66 cubic feet per bag. It would take 24- 25 bags of 80 LB premix for my 2 x 2 x 4 ft hole.

Weld some "ears" on your pole where they will be inside the concrete, so they can't spin in the concrete when stressed.

My ten foot dish has withstood 70+ MPH winds that knocked down several large Pine trees nearby.

Hope this helps

Yes that does help, thank you very much. I wouldn't have thought about the ears thing.
Frost? HA! What's that? No such critter here, we rarely even get a freeze and even more rare, snow. No worries there.

What I'm really worried about is the hurricanes. We took a direct hit from Hurricane Rita & Humberto in recent years and Ike gave us a good beating too, 14 hours of sustained hurricane force winds. Rita got us with 113mph gusts and 4+ hours of sustained HF winds. Humberto was a little f*rt poof but it was still an actual hurricane and a direct hit. I stood outside on the deck at it's height dodging shingles and twigs.

And OMG, that's a LOT of cement! I mixed to bags of the stuff and planted one pole myself and that was no fun. I don't think there's anyway I can do that many! I don't know what to do about that.. I can't afford to pay a big truck to bring it already made, besides, it's physically impossible for one to get any where near my back yard. I could haul bags to my back yard in the little trailer for my lawn mower but I don't have a mixing machine and even if I did, I can't lift the bags up into it. I've seen them and it looks like you have to lift the bags up like 4 feet high. No way... It's always something...

I guess I need to run all this past my dad and see what he can brainstorm up for me.

Thanks!

 

[olegray]

I live in western Arkansas and we get colder weather than you do. I have a 10 foot aluminum mesh planted 3 1/2 foot deep by 15 inches round and it's as true today as when I planted it. I left 5 1/2 foot above ground, and I don't have any trouble mowing under it. Pipe was 9 foot long. Remember, sometimes these things may need tweaker or fine tuned, and the lower to the ground it is means the less height on the ladder you will have to climb. Flanges on the pole are important. I drilled two holes for 1/2 inch bolts in the pipe , one about 8 inches from the bottom, the other about 18 inches from the bottom. I used bolts that would extend 3 inches past the pipe. An inclinometer is a must for setting the pole, to get it perfectly plumb. Hope this helps.

 

[TimLones111]

Dee Ann:
It seems to me that in a Hurricane, I would worry about a lot more than a Satellite Dish..(Just saying) I was lucky, in that when I set up my Ku Dish in 2009, I already had had a pole up for Dish Network/Directv and I just used that, and also put a motor on it. Its pretty well stood up to 9 Northeast Ohio winters (ftom our Pizza Dish days)..I've been pretty fortunate..Good luck to you in your latest project..

 

[Tron]

Dee, those 6' dishes are rather easy to unbolt and remove in case of a storm. They're not too heavy or large to bring to safety. I plan to unbolt my "PortaBUD" and take it indoors if winds stronger than tropical storm force are forecasted in my area.

 

[rodder]

i got my pole at 5 ft above ground for ease of getting to Lnbf.if pointed at 137,135 yes it is only 6" off the ground but who leaves their dish that far west most of the time it is pointed up. i have 2 ft in the ground with a 18" square hole

 

[FaT Air]

FWIW - I've never done it, but have heard from people who did. Plant pole in hole (guyed) filled in hole with rock liberally incorporating bag cement. Add water. The bag cement glues the rock together.

 

[turbosat]

I'll vote with rodder, ground is so rocky here I could never get a 5'hole in it, lol. I'd be surprised if my 10' dish-pole is more than 3' in this rock, with very little concrete, not more than 4-5 bags of quickrete. It's been there since about 1995 and has not moved any that I can tell. I only have to worry about weed=eating around mine, as its too far out of the grass to ever get a mower to, so thats not a consideration. I believe it was 8' pole, and the mount sits about eyeball level to me. Having something on the end of it to keep it from twisting is a good idea, if you weld a cross bolt to the end in the ground. Or burn/drill a hole in it and stick a piece of rebar in it, the concrete will hold it in place when the wind blows. And sure , throwing some rocks in the hole doesn't hurt a thing.

 

[Dee_Ann]

Good stuff guys, thank you!

My dad found and purchased some pipes for me today. He had to buy a 21 foot piece and he had them cut it at the 11 1/2 foot mark so the other piece is 9 1/2 foot long. That was the best he could do to get the stuff to fit in his van. Right now my brains are mashed potatoes so I'm not up to playing math games to figure out how this will work out, I have too many things going on tonight to burn brain cells on this. I'll figure it out tomorrow.

As to the ground here, we have what the locals refer to as "gumbo" which is this black muddy clay mix that's not good for anything other than growing weeds and tallow trees. In the summer it dries up and we get huge cracks in the ground that you can step in and break your ankles. Some of my small ku dishes get loose and wiggly in the summer and cause me problems. I then have to go drive sticks in between the cement and the dirt to try to stabilize it until the next rain. When it rains the dirt swells up like a sponge and the dishes get stable again.

I think it's going to be really important to get these things deep in the ground with lots of cement.

The problem of the cement, may have a solution before too long. I have a lunch date tomorrow and may soon have a new friend that could do that sort of thing for me. Maybe. If not, then I may be doing some really, really hard work soon.

 

[beavs2112]

Good stuff guys, thank you!

My dad found and purchased some pipes for me today. He had to buy a 21 foot piece and he had them cut it at the 11 1/2 foot mark so the other piece is 9 1/2 foot long. That was the best he could do to get the stuff to fit in his van. Right now my brains are mashed potatoes so I'm not up to playing math games to figure out how this will work out, I have too many things going on tonight to burn brain cells on this. I'll figure it out tomorrow.

As to the ground here, we have what the locals refer to as "gumbo" which is this black muddy clay mix that's not good for anything other than growing weeds and tallow trees. In the summer it dries up and we get huge cracks in the ground that you can step in and break your ankles. Some of my small ku dishes get loose and wiggly in the summer and cause me problems. I then have to go drive sticks in between the cement and the dirt to try to stabilize it until the next rain. When it rains the dirt swells up like a sponge and the dishes get stable again.

I think it's going to be really important to get these things deep in the ground with lots of cement.

The problem of the cement, may have a solution before too long. I have a lunch date tomorrow and may soon have a new friend that could do that sort of thing for me. Maybe. If not, then I may be doing some really, really hard work soon.

hi DeeAnn. sounds like your on track. I'm sure you'll love c-band. I put up a 10 foot mesh aluminum dish in my back yard this last summer so I'm not the most experienced at it but I'll share my ideas. i would recommend using a rental cement mixer. you need hydro to run it but it did a nicer AND easier job mixing than by hand. also better to have extra cement on hand when planting the pipe than wishing you had more. most places will let you return unopened cement bags for a refund. I had someone come in with a tractor and hydraulic drill. he made the hole 5 feet deep by 20 inches wide. I needed that big of a hole since my dish is 7 feet off the ground. I also recommend pouring cement inside the pipe up to ground level. for your gumbo problem maybe pouring a small concrete pad on top will solve that.

 

[AcWxRadar]

Would you care to hear another possible option?

1] Dig your hole in the ground 3' - 4' in depth, 2' diameter or 2' square.
2] At the top 6" of your concrete, where it meets the ground level, create some aesthetic shape from 2" x 6" wood framing. A square, hexagonal or near circular shape.
3] Level the wood forms so that when you fill it with concrete, you can drag a straight board across the top of the forms to level the concrete.
4] Use a concrete/sand mix (more fines or sand than coarse gravel) such as Red-E-Mix from bagged concrete, to make a really tight pored and smooth finish.
5] Add the appropriate amount of water and mix extremely thoroughly.
6] Fill the hole with your concrete mix completely and scrim the surface to level it according to your preset forms at the top.
7] Cover the top surface with burlap bags and sprinkle with water throughout the day to keep it just damp.
8] Let the concrete setup for two weeks.
9] Remove your burlap bags and the outer perimeter forms and backfill around the edges of the concrete pad at the top with good dirt.

10] Select the type of metal, the wall thickness and overall diameter and the above ground length of pipe/tubing that your dish is going to be attached to. This will be your mast.
11] Obtain acircular "flange" or base to attach this pipe to. It should be of the same type of metal as the pipe but be at least 3X the diameter of the mast pipe.
12] The main mast pipe will be threaded into or slipped into a recess in the flange, aligned so that it is perpendicular and square and then eventually welded permanently in place.
13] The flange should then have three bolt holes drilled in its outer perimeter, to fit 1/2" - 3/4" bolts, and the holes should be equidistant from eachother as points of a triangle.
14] The flange should be laid on the concrete at the center of the form and the holes marked out on the concrete (I would place one bolt/anchor pointing nearest your true south sat).
15] With a masonary bit and a hammer drill, auger one of these holes and insert a Red-Head concrete anchor for a 1/2" to 3/4" bolt.
16] Use Red-Head anchors/bolts that allow you to leave at least ~4" of threads exposed above the concrete surface.
17] Install the flange on the first bolt and mark out one more hole. Drill and install the next anchor and bolt.
18] Repeat this process until all three anchors and bolts are set and align perfectly with the holes in the flange.
19] Remove the flange and screw a nut on each bolt protruding from the concrete anchors. Install a washer atop each nut and install the flange atop the nuts and washers.
20] Add a washer and a nut from the top side of the flange to each anchor bolt. Snug them up just slightly, strongly finger tight.
21] Screw or slip the upper mast into the flange and align it so that it is as truly plumb with the flange as you can be. Tack weld it in place.
22] Attach your level to the the side of the mast and adjust the lower nuts on the anchor bolts with a wrench to plumb the mast as if you were jacking a car or your RV.
23] Tighten the upper nuts to seat it down better as you get closer to true plum. Readjust the lower nuts to provide finer adjustment to the plumbness of the mast.
24] When the mast is perfectly plumb and all the nuts are tight, finish welding the mast to the flange.
25] Now you can procede to do whatever you wish with the dish installation atop the mast.

The perk of this installation has several advantages. It is sturdy as there is enough concrete in the ground to hold it. You don't have to buy an extremely long mast pole. You don't have to struggle with keeping it level while the concrete sets up. It is adjustable as you have jacking bolts/nuts to position the flange to level and thus adjust the plumb of your mast easily. If you relocate, you simply have to remove the dish from the mast and remove the three nuts on top of the flange to remove the mast and flange. The only thing you will leave behind is the concrete and the anchors, which can be cut flush with a sawzall if desired.

It is all very simple to do and actually more convenient in the long run. The largest challenge is obtaining the proper flange required. The rest is just labor and time which is not more than what you would be required to do otherwise.

I probably wouldn't suggest this for a 6 foot dish or less. But, if you are setting up an eight or ten foot dish, it might make sense and be worth it all. The larger the dish installation, the larger the bolts/anchors I would suggest that you use.

RADAR

 

[sergei]

Either bolt some rods to the bottom of the pipe or weld some metal to it to prevent the pipe from rotating in the concrete as large dishes will likely try to move in high winds.

 

[Phottoman]

Dee Ann, first, let me welcome you back. I trust everything went well and you are on your way to recovery.

Go back and re-read Radars posting, this may be the BEST way for you to attach your dish to the ground. You may have to read it several times over to understand fully what he is saying, but it WOULD be an easy and efficient way to mount your dish. Basically what he said was to pour the concret into the ground with a top that is large enough to place bolts into, then build your dish mount (the pole) on TOP of that concrete structure. Your pole wouldn't be IN the ground, but ON TOP of the ground.. Re-read it several times, it will make sense.

Now, the other question, how high above ground. Look at all the pictures people post of their dishes and look at your own KU band dishes. They are tilted. An 8 foot dish doesn't need four feet of clearance, nor does a ten footer need five feet.. Plus you'll have the mount itself ON TOP of the pole, regardless of how tall the pole is, sticking up another foot and a half or two feet. You'll have to think far enough in advance of just mounting the dish to the pole, how high are you willing to climb on top of a ladder to tweak your LNBf? A tall ladder is NOT a stable platform to work on when you are also leaning INTO the center of the dish to adjust an LNBf, see what I mean.

I put one of my my 10 footers (I have three of them) on a pole that sticks up about 6 feet, but that put the LNBf over 10 feet in the air, and I have to lean way over to get to the LNBf, nearly three FEET to do anything to that LNB. The other two are above ground only 4 feet and are much easier to work on, and standing on those ladders I don't feel like I need a parachute for safety. Yet, if I move these to the farthest East, I still have nearly 18 inches of clearance. And after all, how much grass could you have after that explination of the clay/soil you have. A weed-eater would clean that up nicely, eh?

Again, welcome back.

Photto

 

[hwm]

With the clay soil conditions you describe, I think Radar's concrete pad on top of the ground with a mount adjustable for plumb/vertical of the pole is your best option. The thing about your heavy clay soil is that the pole (or house or other structure) will move over time unless you dig your hole to an incredible depth. Radar's method provides a stable heavy base with very little digging, and allows for easy adjustment of the pole to true vertical/plumb in the future as needed.

I suggest you print out Radar's detailed instructions and show them to your Dad.

 

[FaT Air]

Here's how we did pads BITD. the bolts have a short piece of rebar welded to the head, and wired to the rebar in the pad. The pad is about 5 x 7ft x 8in.( ~1.5 ton) To withstand your hurricanes, I would think 8x10x8in would suffice. Flush with ground level for ease of mowing, etc. I spray some lube on 'em each fall to minimize rust so they are easier to adjust when necessary. The pic is the pad my 10ft BUD is on.

 

[Bongu]

I also support Radar's method. I didn't get it at first, but it makes sense. This is the method I would choose if I was trying to work in rocky soil or very hard packed clay. Texas Caliche is not my favorite stuff to go digging in....

 

[AcWxRadar]

The set up that FaT Air has posted is exactly what I had in mind. Thanks for the visual aids, FaT Air!

Only difference is that he set the bolts in the wet concrete with a rebar anchoring network attached, whereas I suggested drilling holes in the cured concrete to insert Red-Head type anchor bolts.

Using the anchor bolts like I suggested has a couple of drawbacks. One is expressly for northern climes with changing and freezing weather. Drilling the holes for the anchor bolts using a masonry bit and a hammer drill will leave an open gap or ring around the bolt where water can enter and freeze and eventually crack the concrete and loosen the bolts. So you would have to apply some concrete filler/sealant around the bolts to prevent this. The other drawback is that it isn't easy to drill the holes perfectly on the mark or perfectly straight.

It would be easier and more secure to do it the way FaT Air has stated.

RADAR

 

[Magic Static]

One thought about deciding how long a pole you need. The polarmount adds to the overall heighth of the pole. I put my 6' dish on a 30" pole and there is plenty of clearance for snow buildup. (pole on the roof, not ground)

 

[Dee_Ann]

Well, this is a start.

My dad found and bought some pipes for me.

I have for 100% dead certain, bitten off much more than I can chew.
I went to their house yesterday and saw them, they are still in his van, he is supposed to bring them over next week.

He said he tried to find used pipe but that none was to be found. But when I looked at this stuff, it sure looked used to me! It's all rusty. There's no coating on it. So then he told me that I'll have to get a wire brush to clean it up then paint it with some stuff called "osfo" whatever that is and then paint it with regular paint.

Oh boy. So then I try to move one of them and, it doesn't move. I tried to lift one end, it doesn't lift. This stuff weighs hundreds of pounds, I would think. Dad didn't say how much it weighs. He didn't need to. I don't need to know how much it weighs, all I know is, I can not lift or move it and that's 100% of the information I need.

He is going to get a smaller pipe, "turn it down" in a machine to be small enough to fit in that odd 6' dish mount, slide it into the end of the bigger pipe then weld it in place.

I don't know what to do with this stuff, this is way, way, way out of my league. There is no doubt, I am going to have to hire someone to do this for me. I might have been delusional enough to think I could dig a hole and put cement in a bag at a time but these poles, oh no... I could drag them with my mower, it's a John Deere and it will tow small cars but then what? I don't see how even one man could move or lift these things, I would think it would take at least two big men.

OMG this is soooo totally way over my head...

Being a hard head, I kind of had this really insane vision going on that I could somehow manage to put these big dishes up myself. Boy was I ever delusional! I don't know what my next step is now. I guess for now they are going to sit in Dad's van till next week. I guess he can back in to my driveway and I can pull them out of his van with my mower and get them to my back yard but then, I'm afraid they'll sit there 6 months or a year like everything else I try to do. I still have a brand new ku motor sitting in the box from over a year ago that I have yet to figure out a way to put a dish on it. My prediction is, it will never get used.

I really need to get those big dishes put up within the next 30 days otherwise they will not get put up for at least a year, if at all.

You guys are lucky, when you need something done, you just get out there and do it.

Well, I guess I need to start asking around, there's just no way I can do this, for sure not alone and not even with help. This is just way too much for me. I'm going to have to pay a few guys to do this..