1920 multiplied by 1080 is a bigger number than 1440 X 1080 right?
Here's some real time charts from 61.5 on the two main national HD MPEG4 TPs. The one with only 3 channels has plenty of room left. Around 15 mbps of null packets.
SatelliteGuys.US DishNetwork Uplink Discussion - Week Ending 06/23/2007
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1920 multiplied by 1080 is a bigger number than 1440 X 1080 right?
Here's some real time charts from 61.5 on the two main national HD MPEG4 TPs. The one with only 3 channels has plenty of room left. Around 15 mbps of null packets.
Thanks. Whats the limit on one TP, around 50mbps?
Basically on the chart with 3 channels, they could move max to mpeg4 and then add 3 more channels?
Basically on the chart with 3 channels, they could move max to mpeg4 and then add 3 more channels?
People got angry (Hell, they're still angry) when "E" followed "D" down the HD Lite path and that didn't carry a whole lot of weight with Dish. If ALL customers do is get a little angry, I'm not sure Dish really gives a rip.
MAXHD is already MPEG4
Off hand the only MPEG2HD you have left is the VOOM on the wings(129/61.5), and the content on 110W. Ohh...and the mirrored stuff on 148W.
The limit of a TP? Depends on the modulation scheme, FEC, etc. Dish currently uses an 8PSK scheme with an SR or 21500 2/3 FEC which yields about 40 mbps of video bandwidth.
Ok, I saw it was much higher on the chart so ASSumed it was mpeg2. Ideally it would be 5 on a TP for Dish, but they appear to want 6 on a TP which could be limiting.
Which I guess is where the 1440 comes in.
Here is my reading of the demographic:
- 1% of Dish HD and/or DirecTV HD subscribers who have large 1080p displays, are early adopters, who can see such differences and raised the alarm about "HD-Lite"
- 20% of Dish HD and/or DirecTV HD subscribers who do not have large 1080p sets, could not see the difference even if they had those sets, but really, really care that the number 1920 is greater than 1440, and so they feel that they are getting "ripped off".
- 10% of Dish HD and/or DirecTV HD subscribers who do not have large 1080p sets, like what they see on the HD channels, and don't care about the numbers.
- 69% of Dish HD and/or DirecTV HD subscribers who do not have large 1080p sets, do not read forums, have never heard of "HD-Lite", like what they see on the HD channels, and don't care about the numbers.
The current HD penetration is estimated to be 10-15%. Given that, while many more 1080p sets are being made and sold than before, there are several counter factors:
- Late adopters spend less money, most of the sets will be 37 inches or less. Most HD sets purchased in 2007 have been 37 inches or less, for that matter.
- 1080p sets cost more than 720p sets, and are heavier. Since late adopters spend less money, 720p sets will continue to dominate for years.
- Late adopters are the most clueless, lots of those people won't even know they are not hooked up to HD channels for a couple of years (this is a well documented phenomenon). Most of them could not distinguish the difference between 1920 and 1440 on an 80 inch 1080p set, let alone the one they will be purchasing.
- The more HD channels, the more bandwidth that cable and satellite providers will need. As more and more channels go HD, all the providers will supply the least bandwidth per channel that they can. The fact that the usual 1440x1080i channels don't look as good as HD-DVD will simply be normal and accepted (by those who can tell the difference). No one expects a Premium TV Channel movie to look as good as a DVD, so that will be natural.
I agree with you.
My Father in law finally bought a $3500 plasma, when I went home during Mardi Gras in Feb, his HD looked like crap and he had side bars. He had the HR20 set up on 480i full time, but it looked great to him.
As everyone started going HD, providers will most likely choose quantity of quality. If we are happy with what we have now, why make it better?
I most look forward to my BR player and my netflix movies. A close 2nd is HD football and HD primte time programming. Much of which I can get off OTA. Id love it if all hd looked like CBS/ABCHD.
My Father in law finally bought a $3500 plasma, when I went home during Mardi Gras in Feb, his HD looked like crap and he had side bars. He had the HR20 set up on 480i full time, but it looked great to him.
As everyone started going HD, providers will most likely choose quantity of quality. If we are happy with what we have now, why make it better?
I most look forward to my BR player and my netflix movies. A close 2nd is HD football and HD primte time programming. Much of which I can get off OTA. Id love it if all hd looked like CBS/ABCHD.
I have not seen a peep anywhere else (such as AVS) about ESPN changing from 720p.
So, if this is true (and why would the rates be inaccurate, but the resolutions are accurate), then it could only mean that the stat-mux encoders that E* uses on a transponder have to have the same resolution for all the channels, so E* is upconverting 720p channels to 1440x1080i...
The market is just starting to move towards 1080. 1080 in LCD/projection last year and plasma this year. Full res will be important once sets are cheap enough that people can buy a 70+" screen. Projection is going to be there first, but if current trends continue 70 LCD/Plasma will be common in less than 4 years.
One hopes that by that time MPEG-4 encoders are mature enough to do a good job with 6-8Mbit at 1920x1080. Dish at current rates gets 39.4mbit/TP (8PSK 21500 sym 2/3 FEC). There is probably some overhead on the order of .5mbit (guide, authorizations, etc) so 6/TP are probably getting about 6.5 Mbit and 5/TP are getting about 7.8 Mbit/sec. Of course with the mux software some channels peak up higher when needed if others are running low.
One hopes that by that time MPEG-4 encoders are mature enough to do a good job with 6-8Mbit at 1920x1080. Dish at current rates gets 39.4mbit/TP (8PSK 21500 sym 2/3 FEC). There is probably some overhead on the order of .5mbit (guide, authorizations, etc) so 6/TP are probably getting about 6.5 Mbit and 5/TP are getting about 7.8 Mbit/sec. Of course with the mux software some channels peak up higher when needed if others are running low.
You pretending HD history it is just your memory - wrong !
Just read old initial debates about HD-Lite and you will see what you missed in your childhood
.It WAS NORMAL HDTV at Dish !!!
You have an ERSATZ now.
You pretending HD history it is just your memory - wrong !
Just read old initial debates about HD-Lite and you will see what you missed in your childhood
It WAS NORMAL HDTV at Dish !!!
You have an ERSATZ now.
So Dish was mpeg2 1920x1080i on all channels at once?
Its funny, you only hear people accuse D* of HDlite, mostly.
What is ERSATZ?
If Dish can reduce the error correction on TPs provided by the very high powered E-11 satellite to perhaps 3/4 FEC or 5/6 FEC (IIRC Rainbow/Voom used 5/6 FEC), how much bandwidth can they get per TP?
The trends are that electronic and digital parameters increase steadily and get cheaper, while physical parameters stay the same and stay expensive.
Big TV sets and big computer monitors have never gotten a lot cheaper, because physical size has constant costs involved.
The cost of shipping my 42-inch set was 12% as much as the cost of the TV. Imagine what a 70-inch set costs to ship. They have to be shipped from Asia to the US, and then they have to sit in warehouses.
People have trouble fitting a 70-inch set in their living rooms. 42-inch sets don't cost that much more than smaller ones, yet if you look at AVS Forum, you will see that the LCD discussions are totally dominated by 32-inch and 37-inch sets.
If I were czar, I would have set all broadcast TV HD at 720p, and left full 1080p for HD-DVDs. Interlace is a weird artifact of the 20th Century, why are we preserving it forever ??
We're talking 8PSK here.
Dish uses 5/6 on most of their DBS band QPSK beams except for the one odd ball 7/8 FEC QPSK TP on 119W.
On the documents for E-11, I believe the FEC rate for 8PSK was also 2/3.
No, they can mix resolutions. They can even mix SD with HD. ESPN2HD is still cooking at 720p along with NatGeo HD.
Yep, E* used 1920x1080i exclusively.
D* paved the road and started driving the HDLite bus along with the SDLite bus. It was only a matter of time, E* had to jump on the bus to compete. Sure a lot of people complained at D* but they probably don't get a lot of complaints now. So E* said "Hey...they did it! How come we can't try it?"
Now with that said... who here can ultimately say at the end of the day, they saw a decrease in PQ without knowing what happened due to this thread? Can anyone do some unbiased "wife" tests without giving it away? I'm surprised that we haven't seen a full out SatelliteGuys Army busting out the seams on the forums with complaints.
The channels are still there on TP 17, they simply reconfigured the other encoders and left this one intact. I'm sure they left it this way to switch it back if they had a boatload of complaints. I predict this encoder to be changed to some new MPEG4 HD material within a week or two. Ready for 5-6 more HD channels on 110W?
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The formula runs approximately
symbol rate * bits(3 for 8PSK) * FEC * 188/204 if I remember correctly. Where 188/204 is the Reed Solomon Coding to prevent burst errors and the FEC covers the fade errors (or maybe I have them backwards).
So 21,500,000 * 3 * 3/4 * 188/204 = 44.58 Mbit/sec
21,500,000 * 3 * 5/6 * 188/204 = 49.5 Mbit/sec
But, of course as you use less error correction you increase rain fade. This can be compensated with larger dishes or more power from the satellite. The same can be said about increasing the symbol rate.
Dish probably picked the numbers they did because they could fit 2 full 19.2mbit MPEG-2 channels on 1 TP with some room left over for the needed overhead (like guide and authorization data).
Voom pushed the numbers more, but people did complain about rain fade.
Trying to learn, and you should read my pub post since you enjoy giving me a hard time and think I have my "own agenda".
Digiblur, thanks for answering my questions.
I wonder if once D* and E* have their full mpeg4 systems in place, if they wont go back to full resolution. I guess only if theyll still have the ability to keep up with demand, but at that point its not guaranteed since they are doing it now and not getting much heat.
They won't go back because 99% of their customer base don't notice a difference.
Note that the Ipod and other MP3 players have much less audio resolution than CD. They are " CD-Lite ". Everyone loves it.
