SatelliteGuys.US DishNetwork Uplink Discussion - Week Ending 06/23/2007

[gadgtfreek]

They won't go back because 99% of their customer base don't notice a difference.

Note that the Ipod and other MP3 players have much less audio resolution than CD. They are " CD-Lite ". Everyone loves it.

Good way of looking at it. I mean sound quality was compromised for portability which is not the case here. But once again, if nearly everyone is happy, why change it.

I imagine by the time 1080p takes off networks will be going to that format and providers will have a way around that too.

 

[Spike]

I can't say much... but I can say this...

Any loss of PQ is temporary. Dish is working to provide the best PQ anywhere.

Thats all I can say about that.

Same song, second verse!

I'd go back to Dish in a second if this were true! But...... I truly doubt it will happen.

Please Dish... full band width and full resolution.. PLEASE!

:

 

[kstuart]

Same song, second verse!

I'd go back to Dish in a second if this were true! But...... I truly doubt it will happen.

Please Dish... full band width and full resolution.. PLEASE!

:

Dish has the best PQ that they can provide with the bandwidth that they have. They continually launch new satellites to increase their bandwidth. They have full-time engineers who work on improving the encoding and thus the picture quality.

Remember that they could have perfect PQ - if they only had one channel.

But each subscriber wants different channels. A provider that had outstanding PQ on channels you don't want to watch is worthless to you.

So, they have to balance the need to provide the channels you want to see, with the need to provide good picture quality.

 

[gadgtfreek]

Dish has the best PQ that they can provide with the bandwidth that they have. They continually launch new satellites to increase their bandwidth. They have full-time engineers who work on improving the encoding and thus the picture quality.

Remember that they could have perfect PQ - if they only had one channel.

But each subscriber wants different channels. A provider that had outstanding PQ on channels you don't want to watch is worthless to you.

So, they have to balance the need to provide the channels you want to see, with the need to provide good picture quality.

Plus, E*'s hd may not look as good as it used to (I would not know), and they may not be broadcasting full resolution, but their HD offering is the best out there right now, and there PQ aint bad, not even close.

 

[Spike]

and there PQ aint bad, not even close.

I disagree!

 

[gadgtfreek]

I disagree!

Well, its your right to disagree.

Id encourage you to check out some other providers and youll see E* isnt that bad, compared.

Now also understand Im not defending them, but they have one of the best PQ's out there, at least from what Ive seen. Read Scotts D* vs E* review. The E* hd looks good. I have locals OTA, and nothing compares to that. Do I wish all hd would look that good? Yes. Do I think all HD will look that good? No.

 

[Spike]

elwaylite,

I have compared! Comcast here is far better than Dish's HD... their DVR is a piece of garbage though. Further, from what I can see with the naked eye... directv has better RSN's and Locals in HD than Dish..So, as it appears to me the gap between the two Sat. companies MAY be narrowing!

Best Guess.. Directv HD will get better before Dish! The currently have the sats to do it. But we will see.... I don't believe anything either Sat. company says..... The proof will be in the pudding.. or the lack of it!

 

[gadgtfreek]

elwaylite,

I have compared! Comcast here is far better than Dish's HD... their DVR is a piece of garbage though. Further, from what I can see with the naked eye... directv has better RSN's and Locals in HD than Dish..So, as it appears to me the gap between the two Sat. companies MAY be narrowing!

Best Guess.. Directv HD will get better before Dish! The currently have the sats to do it. But we will see.... I don't believe anything either Sat. company says..... The proof will be in the pudding.. or the lack of it!

Well, Dish is equal with Comcast in my area.

It was probably a bad idea to use cable as an example because so much depends on what market you are in.

I personally feel E* has a good offering, and I think its going to get better. I may be fooling myself, but we'll just have to wait and see at the end of this year. You mentioned D*, well they will most likely only have 1 sat up by years end while E* SHOULD have two.

One things for sure, they arent the worst out there. Not to necessarily defend them, but for the price and what you get, Im pretty happy.

 

[Jim5506]

Cable is so spotty, you can't globally compare cable to satellite. Sometimes cable is excellent, if the system lets its amps get out of spec, the signal goes south and it is terrible.

It can even vary widely within one cable system.

When I had cable, about every 6 months I had to call the cable co to have them repair their line amplifiers, what a hassle.

 

[rocatman]

The formula runs approximately

symbol rate * bits(3 for 8PSK) * FEC * 188/204 if I remember correctly. Where 188/204 is the Reed Solomon Coding to prevent burst errors and the FEC covers the fade errors (or maybe I have them backwards).

So 21,500,000 * 3 * 3/4 * 188/204 = 44.58 Mbit/sec

21,500,000 * 3 * 5/6 * 188/204 = 49.5 Mbit/sec

But, of course as you use less error correction you increase rain fade. This can be compensated with larger dishes or more power from the satellite. The same can be said about increasing the symbol rate.

Dish probably picked the numbers they did because they could fit 2 full 19.2mbit MPEG-2 channels on 1 TP with some room left over for the needed overhead (like guide and authorization data).

Voom pushed the numbers more, but people did complain about rain fade.

Voom was provided by the Rainbow-1 satellite (now E-12) that has 150 watt TPs. The E-11 satellite can combine three 150 watt amplifiers for each TP when only 19 are being provided by E-11. Dish has license for 29 TPs at 110 W and E-10 uses 10 of these for spotbeams. I know combining three 150 watt amplifiers doesn't result in a 450 watt TP but it certainly will be much higher than the 150 watts that Voom used.

 

[waltinvt]

Dish has the best PQ that they can provide with the bandwidth that they have.....<snip> ....Remember that they could have perfect PQ - if they only had one channel.

Of course those two statements kind of contradict each other.

Let's at least call a spade a spade - Dish has made the business decision to provide LESS than the best PQ they can because they would rather divide whatever amount of bandwidth they have with more channels.

Some people try to skirt around that fact but no matter how it's glossed over, it's the reason "E" now refers to their HD as "DishHD". Since the "coined" phrase "HD Lite" isn't going away and they can't ethically claim it's true HD, they're hoping their new acronym will at least take the edge off it.

They know that as long as they keep PQ somewhat near the competition average, they can get away with it. All providers can and do ride the quality vs quantity fence to some extent, which is why none of them can compete with the HD PQ of good OTA digital broadcasts.

For this reason, you can expect Dish to go less and less out of their way to support OTA reception in their receivers. In fact it wouldn't surprise me to see them start to charge extra for OTA related services. Maybe not provide guide info unless you sub to their locals or charge extra to receive OTA digital if you don't sub to "Dish HD" or limit their receivers to only one OTA tuner or ...........

 

[mdonnelly]

...

For this reason, you can expect Dish to go less and less out of their way to support OTA reception in their receivers. In fact it wouldn't surprise me to see them start to charge extra for OTA related services. Maybe not provide guide info unless you sub to their locals or charge extra to receive OTA digital if you don't sub to "Dish HD" or limit their receivers to only one OTA tuner or ...........

I see your point, and I agree with it. I've said before that the government should step in and mandate ATSC tuners in satellite, cable and IPTV boxes, just as they are now with television sets.

 

[Smith P.]

I would say more steps must be done - to preserve quality of original signals by ATSC standards, HDTV particulary. That old hype around 'quality of digital signal will be protected from source to consumer' become a farce with shameless manipulations the _solid_ digital content by middlemans !

 

[digiblur]

New uplink discussion thread:

http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-ne...link-discussion-week-ending-06-30-2007-a.html

 

[kstuart]

Let's at least call a spade a spade - Dish has made the business decision to provide LESS than the best PQ they can because they would rather divide whatever amount of bandwidth they have with more channels.

I've said this many times, and I will say it again.

How about Dish improves its PQ by removing the HD channels that you watch ?

Does that help ?

Why do none of the PQ-whiners get that ?

 

[Smith P.]

Dude, chill out - we all knows you're proponent of Dish business.

If we want 4% milk or 40% wiskey, then we have right for that !!!
Same as for STANDARD ATSC signal on our TVs.

 

[gadgtfreek]

I really like ping pong.

 

[Smith P.]

I don't like the 'ping pong' when someone push a ball in your throat.

 

[gadgtfreek]

I don't like the 'ping pong' when someone push a ball in your throat.

I think both sides have a good argument and Im one of the guilty "quantity over quality" subs.

I do hope once capacity is there again, ALL providers do the right thing and give us what they receive.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

I do hope once capacity is there again, ALL providers do the right thing and give us what they receive.

They are going to have to...

Some company is going to do it and to stay competitive they are all going to have to do it.