Smart Car?

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Not really relevant to the original post, but VW sells much more fuel-efficient models than the US-bound 2.0 diesel they're going to put in the Jetta blue-tec. They have a new version of the Polo (smaller than the Golf) with a 1.4l diesel that gets about 60 mpg (per US gallon, using European mileage tests).
See: Fuel Miser: Diesel Volkswagen Polo Blue Motion Hits 60 MPG

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much chance of that showing up in showrooms in the US. Of course... if we had gas prices like Europe then people would be begging for them.

My experience with European diesels has been very positive. I recently had a rental Audi A4 2.0 diesel that I got 42+ mpg in with some pretty "spirited" driving over a couple of weeks. No doubt the Jetta should have real-world numbers at least as good as that, and probably better.

CDH.
 
Actually, I don't mind the funny looking car in the driveway bit. I've never owned a car that was unusual in any regard. I actually looked forward to it. However, her concerns, the safety issue, repair concerns, and the extremely long delivery times, all add up to pretty much kill it.

The most likely contender now is the Jetta diesel. If I can actually get pricing and delivery info, to calculate total cost of ownership. Then to sell it in house. Pretty vanilla looks, though.
 
The most likely contender now is the Jetta diesel. If I can actually get pricing and delivery info, to calculate total cost of ownership. Then to sell it in house. Pretty vanilla looks, though.

I am not impressed with the MPG numbers you quoted, given the significantly higher cost of diesel. I believe it will cost you more to run the Jetta than it would a small gas car.

Say the small gas car gets combined 28 MPG and gas is $4.20. The diesel gets a combined 34 MPG at fuel pushing $5.

4.20/28 = $.15/mi

5/34 = $.147/mi

No real difference, so why put up with the hassles of a diesel?
 
She Who Must Be Obeyed finally went for a test drive in a Smart Car with me. Double Ungood. She does not like it. Actually, she flat out dislikes it and would prefer to never ride in one again. Granted, it is to be a commuter for me for work, but there are times when we can commute together. :(:(:(

What is her reason of not liking the Smart Car? Even though I didn't like the harsh auto tran, I still thought it was okay for a small car. I would have bought the Smart Car if I didn't test drive the Mini. Take your wife to test drive a Mini Cooper. Every female I know from teens to 60's loves my Mini. The problem is my wife likes to take my Mini every chance she got (even though she got a BMW that costs twice as much). I am now trying to get my boss to buy a Mini, so we could start our own Mini Club at work! ;) Actually there are already 6 or 7 Mini's out in the parking lot and we like to part next to each others... less chance of door dings from bigger cars.
 
I am not impressed with the MPG numbers you quoted, given the significantly higher cost of diesel. I believe it will cost you more to run the Jetta than it would a small gas car.

Say the small gas car gets combined 28 MPG and gas is $4.20. The diesel gets a combined 34 MPG at fuel pushing $5.

4.20/28 = $.15/mi

5/34 = $.147/mi

No real difference, so why put up with the hassles of a diesel?


Putting aside the fact that the average combined mpg for the jetta diesel (the '05 averaged 40+ combined in real-world driving) should be considerably higher than 34 mpg, what hassles are you talking about?

CDH.
 
Putting aside the fact that the average combined mpg for the jetta diesel (the '05 averaged 40+ combined in real-world driving) should be considerably higher than 34 mpg, what hassles are you talking about?

CDH.

I'm simply using the numbers Navychop got from VW. Best numbers we have right now.

Most hassles I see are cold start in winter and limited number of pumps with diesel currently out there. There is also a perception issue that currently lowers resale value over the same gas car, especially when you pay exra for diesel in the first place. They are all issues that can be dealt with, but are an added consideration when you are looking at alternatives.
 
I'm simply using the numbers Navychop got from VW. Best numbers we have right now.

Most hassles I see are cold start in winter and limited number of pumps with diesel currently out there. There is also a perception issue that currently lowers resale value over the same gas car, especially when you pay exra for diesel in the first place. They are all issues that can be dealt with, but are an added consideration when you are looking at alternatives.

The VW numbers are the official federal city/highway numbers, but real-world numbers have historically been significantly higher for their diesel models. It will be interesting to see.

You must be in a very cold environment indeed to be worried about cold weather starting. You may be right on perception, but modern diesels don't have the problems that older models had. And actually, regarding resale, anecdotal evidence has been that the recent model VW diesels have been selling for very close to their *new* purchase price (though that could partly be because the last diesel VW sold in the US was a 2006.5 model) so they're scarce.

VWs have had issues with quality in the fairly recent past (better in 2006, 2007, I believe), which could be a consideration. That is the only thing keeping me hesitant about ordering a Jetta Sportwagen TDI for later this year.

Naturally the availability of diesel varies from area to area, so that could be problem some places. I know around here there are many gas stations that do have it, but that might not be the case everywhere.

Of course the main reason for the popularity of diesel in Europe is of course that diesel is actually up to $0.40-0.50/gallon *cheaper* than gasoline which means that with the higher mpg there is a significant cost savings.

CDH.
 
The VW numbers are the official federal city/highway numbers, but real-world numbers have historically been significantly higher for their diesel models. It will be interesting to see.
Agreed. It will also be interesting to see resale, now that we are in another "crisis".


You must be in a very cold environment indeed to be worried about cold weather starting.
Northen Illinois. Before that Northern Colorado. Definite issues in both places without going to a block heater. Our kids had 6 extra "snow" days this winter because it was too cold to start the busses.


VWs have had issues with quality in the fairly recent past (better in 2006, 2007, I believe), which could be a consideration. That is the only thing keeping me hesitant about ordering a Jetta Sportwagen TDI for later this year.
I've had several VWs over the years. My Pennsylvania built '83 GTI was the best car I've ever owned. My Mexican built 95 GTI-VR6 was the worst.

Naturally the availability of diesel varies from area to area, so that could be problem some places. I know around here there are many gas stations that do have it, but that might not be the case everywhere.

Well, there is a Chrysler plant here in Rockford, and a normal midwestern aversion to 'furrin' cars. 7 out of 8 are American, although I drive an older BMW 535i. I'd say less than hqalf of the stations have diesel, and those that do only have a single pump that is shared with regular. You would generally have to wait for that pump to clear before you could fill, thus creating a hassle.

Anyway, I have no aversion to a well thought out diesel, but it needs to make sense, both economically and hassle wise before I will jump.
 
My daily driver now is a 2004 Dodge 3500 4x4 LB Quad cab diesel. 14 mpg around town. I don't view diesel as a hassle. If anything, there's less maintenance. But that maintenance tends to cost more. I've moved our company truck fleet to almost all diesel. Resale on those trucks is much higher with diesel. BTW, I did a search. Those used Jetta diesels are holding their value well. For example, a 2006 with less than 50,000 miles on it, very nicely equipped but with a manual tranny, is advertised just below $22,000. I'm hoping a new one with an automatic, not so nicely equipped, won't be much more than that.

The only extra work on my diesel today is to change the fuel filter more often than on a gasser. And I do wait a few seconds for the pre-heat cycle before starting the engine. In winter, that might be up to 30 seconds. No biggie.

Now that diesel actually costs more than gas, yes, it does put a crimp in things. I'm running a spreadsheet, trying to come up with reasonable lifetime cost estimates. At first blush, very preliminary figures indicate that if the diesel gets about one third better mileage than the gasser, the diesel will be comfortably ahead in fuel cost savings. This assumes that any difference paid for the diesel engine to start with is recovered upon resale. For our fleet trucks, the diesel difference is actually greater at resale than what we paid for originally. This holds for level fuel costs and 5% inflation. As the inflation rate goes up, the diesel advantage becomes much greater, especially over 4-5 years. I checked my records. The average annual rate of increase for diesel that I've bought since 2004 is 31.3%. Of course, if that held up the diesel advantage would be greater still, but at some point the price of the vehicle becomes moot because the annual cost of fuel becomes much larger than the car payments. I doubt that fuel will increase more than 5% - 10% annually, averaged over the next few years. And I suspect that early reports are true, regarding real world diesel Jetta driving yielding 20% better mpg than the EPA figures.

Diesel should in fact cost less than gasoline, because it is simpler to refine. Increase in demand (including the very similar home heating oil) is jacking up the cost. And "because they can." Diesel inherently is about 30% more efficient than gas engines. About half of that is due to the higher BTU number for diesel, and half due to basic engine efficiency (compression vs spark ignition, higher compression ratios, no oxygen starvation etc).

About 40% of fueling stations nationwide serve diesel, and that number is growing slowly. I have no trouble finding diesel wherever I travel. However, most places do have only the one dispenser with two nozzles, one for each side of the fueling island. And yes, since there are also gasoline dispensers there, I am limited in choice and do sometimes have to wait a bit longer.

I've considered making my own fuel, from used vegetable oil, but I already have enough hobbies to keep me busy. Besides, the county is murmuring about co-opting all the used veggie oil for their own use.

I do have concerns about reliability. I just can't get "Eurovan" out of my head. VW's history is mixed. And I don't view them as a technology leader. However, there are some VW diesel fans out there, just as there are for the old Mercedes diesels. At least, as a company vehicle, this is not much of a personal risk.

I'm rethinking the whole list, especially as the boss loosened up the requirements today. It just has to be highly fuel efficient, not necessarily the highest. And low total cost of ownership, not necessarily the very lowest.

That means taking another look at the Yaris, as well. Ugh. And maybe the Mini Cooper.
 
What is her reason of not liking the Smart Car? Even though I didn't like the harsh auto tran, I still thought it was okay for a small car. I would have bought the Smart Car if I didn't test drive the Mini.

Well, yes, it is not an automatic. It is an automatically shifted manual transmission, and there is a bit of a clunk. She didn't like that, even when I shifted manually. She left it in auto mode when she drove it, would not try shifting it herself. She thought it was loud. I don't. She agreed it was spacious inside, and had plenty of room for groceries and such. What she really hated was the vibration. I don't think it was bad. She said it made her nauseated. I've read this before. There is something about how the car moves that makes some folk's stomachs uneasy.

I'd gladly have a Smart Car, as an around town commuter car. But it looks like 'tis not to be.
 
Thanks for the info. Sounds like we went down the same path, and pretty much came to the same conclusions. But this will be an experiment, heavily weighted on getting the absolute max mpg and lowest life cycle costs. So that meant the Smart Car. BTW, it was supposed to be priced lower when introduced in the States, but came in at least 2 thousand more than originally mentioned. I think they're trying Real Hard to turn a profit on it. I guess with a year plus backlog, they can jack up the price still further. I'll bet the price will go up in tandem with gas prices.

There are a hundred or so Smart Car EDs in the UK. This is the pure electric version. I think it has a 70 mile range. If this company car works out ok, and they put that ED version on the US market, I think I'd buy it personally. I really think small electric commuters are what most of us really need. Perhaps in addition to a gasser.

I look forward to hearing your neighbor's thoughts and experience with her Smart.

smartukilg.jpg
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smartukiengine.jpg


Seen the smart car with the GSXR1000 engine in it? Smart Car plus GSXR equals “Smartuki,” a VERY Smart Car - The Kneeslider
zero to 60 in 4.2 seconds


From what I hear, the ordinary smart car takes 12 seconds for 0-60 and shifting SUCKS!!
 
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"Asked why buyers would want to buy a diesel engine when the fuel savings is small but the additional cost of diesel fuel versus gas is currently considerable, Mark Barnes replies with a single word: "resale." He then whips out a slide that shows a recent 2004 TDI Jetta GLS offered on eBay for 110 percent of its original sales price."

From here. I note "offered" not "sold." But still, it fits with other used Jettas I've seen for sale. Of course, people are getting a pretty penny for old Metros still running. I'm hoping a diesel Jetta with automatic and a/c will come in below $24,000. Don't need a nav system, etc.

Anybody know if it's true there is no cruise control available on the Yaris? I'm going by Edmund's.
 
Of course, people are getting a pretty penny for old Metros still running.

Anybody know if it's true there is no cruise control available on the Yaris? I'm going by Edmund's.

Toyota Yaris - 2008 Options and Packages

Seems to indicate it is available as part of a power package.

There was a listing on the local craigslist last week for a rabbit pickup with diesel. Sitting in a field with rust and weeds growing through it. Guy wanted $4k.
 
Thanks. I should have gone to the Toyota site in the first place.

$4k? And the rabbit wasn't exactly a successful car.
 
UPDATE: From this story I get:
"The federal EPA rates the new turbo-diesel 2009 Jetta TDI at 30 miles per gallon in the city and 41 mpg on the highway, for a combined rating of just 34 mpg.

The automaker had been boasting of 60 mpg highway fuel economy for the new 50-state clean diesel Jetta, which goes on sale in late August."

So it looks like the diesel Jetta is not a contender. Given the now higher price of diesel, and higher capital cost, and EPA MPG figures almost identical to the Smart Car, there is no way the Jetta could come out as the lowest cost option.

I'll have to assume those stories about a 2009 diesel Honda Accord getting 52 mpg will be just as (in)accurate as the 50-60 mpg diesel Jetta stories were.

Looks like there are no other low life cycle cost contenders out there. Certainly not hybrids, with their battery costs. Waiting a year for a Smart Car is about the only option now.

The EPA estimates are not at all accurate. They were changed recently. I have owned 2 Volkswagen Jetta diesels and they both got in excess of 50mpg on the highway.
 
I'm simply using the numbers Navychop got from VW. Best numbers we have right now.

Most hassles I see are cold start in winter and limited number of pumps with diesel currently out there. There is also a perception issue that currently lowers resale value over the same gas car, especially when you pay exra for diesel in the first place. They are all issues that can be dealt with, but are an added consideration when you are looking at alternatives.


The cold start issues for diesels have not been a problem for many years. Unless of course you live in the Artic circle.
 
That means taking another look at the Yaris, as well. Ugh. And maybe the Mini Cooper.

Heh, you are looking at most of the cars I test drove last year when I was buying a car. I drove the Yaris also. It was a good car but no frill. I like it because it was on Chuck. :) If you can wait, the Toyota iQ is coming to US probably next year. The size is in between a Smart Car and the Yaris. I guess it will be cheaper than the Yaris and have better MPG.
 
The Rabbit was highly succesful. Many millions were sold worldwide.

Yep. I meant it did not seem to last long. Perhaps I am overly influenced by a guy I knew who had one for a few years and junked it.


I sat in a Yaris today- I fit fine. I also sat in a Scion xD, and discovered it actually had less leg room than the Yaris. I'm going to look at Edmund's TCO figures for several models, plus do my own calcs. As the Toyota sales critter put it, $8,000 buys a lot of fuel. $8k being the approx diff in price between the diesel Jetta and the Toyotas. But after 4 or 5 years, what will each resell for? Gotta give high marks for the Jetta on that, although it's hard to picture getting full price back at that point, as some lucky people have in the past.
 
Yep. I meant it did not seem to last long. Perhaps I am overly influenced by a guy I knew who had one for a few years and junked it.
Yes. As I said my rabbit based GTI was the best car I ever owned. Had it from 1983 (new) until 2001 when my daughter totalled it. In that time, I put over 250k miles on it and spent less than $1500 on unscheduled maintenance. It still had the original clutch and rear brakes. I didn't coddle the car either. That car took us to 5th place in 1988 and 2nd place in 1999 in the SCCA Rally National championships. I wish I could buy another that good.
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