STB contributes to rain fade??

[ricks]

I haven't seen this aspect of rain fade discussed previously. Possibly because it's B.S.

Live in South Florida and we're now into the rainy season. I sometimes survive a slight drizzle. Not particularly hard storms cause freezes and macroblocks that usually last off-and-on for five minutes or so. One fairly hard storm caused complete loss of signal for over 45 minutes when I gave up and went to bed.

Discussed this with my installer. I don't think he's the greatest that ever lived, but he's far from the worst. Owns his own company and clearly has considerable knowledge. On top of that, he is also a Voom subscriber and loves the product.

I already have a 24" dish I bought. I want to go to a 30" to see if it will help. He insists (contrary to what I experience and what many others say) that rain fade with Voom is not an issue. He says he uses an 18" dish and has absolutely no rain fade.

He thinks that rather than put in a 30" dish, we should replace my STB. I countered with, "why, when I have no issues with the box - it is rock solid and my signal strength is 96-97?" He says, "how do you know the STB is really processing that full signal? If you are having problems with rain, it is more likely the box than it is the dish."

All of this is a new one for me and something I have difficulty accepting from a logical standpoint. Anyone far more knowledgeable than I care to chip in here with an opinion? Is he B.S'ing me cause he doesn't want to change out the dish? Or is there some possible validity to his opinion that changing the STB might resolve or improve the rain fade issue?

 

[bbtkd]

I haven't seen this aspect of rain fade discussed previously. Possibly because it's B.S.

Live in South Florida and we're now into the rainy season. I sometimes survive a slight drizzle. Not particularly hard storms cause freezes and macroblocks that usually last off-and-on for five minutes or so. One fairly hard storm caused complete loss of signal for over 45 minutes when I gave up and went to bed.

Discussed this with my installer. I don't think he's the greatest that ever lived, but he's far from the worst. Owns his own company and clearly has considerable knowledge. On top of that, he is also a Voom subscriber and loves the product.

I already have a 24" dish I bought. I want to go to a 30" to see if it will help. He insists (contrary to what I experience and what many others say) that rain fade with Voom is not an issue. He says he uses an 18" dish and has absolutely no rain fade.

He thinks that rather than put in a 30" dish, we should replace my STB. I countered with, "why, when I have no issues with the box - it is rock solid and my signal strength is 96-97?" He says, "how do you know the STB is really processing that full signal? If you are having problems with rain, it is more likely the box than it is the dish."

All of this is a new one for me and something I have difficulty accepting from a logical standpoint. Anyone far more knowledgeable than I care to chip in here with an opinion? Is he B.S'ing me cause he doesn't want to change out the dish? Or is there some possible validity to his opinion that changing the STB might resolve or improve the rain fade issue?

It is possible, but not likely. Think of it this way - you need a signal strength of about 75 to get a usable data stream. Much less than that and you will start seeing it break up. There are a number of things that can be done to increase the signal, just as there are things that can cause signal loss. Say your normal signal is 85 with an 18" dish, but rain causes it to drop 15 points - so the resulting signal strength of 70 will lead to loss of usable signal. If you install a larger dish to offset the rain, you may get a signal strength of 95 so that with rain, you get a signal of 80.

OK - that was a normal rain. If you get a downpour, you may see a signal loss of 25 which would give you a signal strength of 70, and break up. Now - you could have a problem with the receiver, the cable, a connector, a diplexor, the dish aiming, the feed or anything else in the signal path - which could cause signal loss. The receiver could have a problem which would cause signal loss but there are only a very few components on the receiver module which could cause this - and it would be far more likely to have total signal loss.

When the new dish was installed, was it repeaked - and did the installer use the arm that came with the new dish? Larger dishes have a smaller beamwidth - so if not repeaked it may cause a signal loss. If the installer used the old arm, it would not be at the focal point and again there would be signal loss.

The installer apparently has never tried to watch Voom when it is raining because everyone else has had problems with the 18" dish and Voom has admitted problems with the 18" dish and rain fade.

Check on several channels and see what your signal strength is - not the quality. If it is not at least 85 I would repeak it. Also, if you have a diplexor, try bypassing it and see what that does for your signal.

 

[ricks]

It is possible, but not likely. Think of it this way - you need a signal strength of about 75 to get a usable data stream. Much less than that and you will start seeing it break up. There are a number of things that can be done to increase the signal, just as there are things that can cause signal loss. Say your normal signal is 85 with an 18" dish, but rain causes it to drop 15 points - so the resulting signal strength of 70 will lead to loss of usable signal. If you install a larger dish to offset the rain, you may get a signal strength of 95 so that with rain, you get a signal of 80.

OK - that was a normal rain. If you get a downpour, you may see a signal loss of 25 which would give you a signal strength of 70, and break up. Now - you could have a problem with the receiver, the cable, a connector, a diplexor, the dish aiming, the feed or anything else in the signal path - which could cause signal loss. The receiver could have a problem which would cause signal loss but there are only a very few components on the receiver module which could cause this - and it would be far more likely to have total signal loss.

When the new dish was installed, was it repeaked - and did the installer use the arm that came with the new dish? Larger dishes have a smaller beamwidth - so if not repeaked it may cause a signal loss. If the installer used the old arm, it would not be at the focal point and again there would be signal loss.

The installer apparently has never tried to watch Voom when it is raining because everyone else has had problems with the 18" dish and Voom has admitted problems with the 18" dish and rain fade.

Check on several channels and see what your signal strength is - not the quality. If it is not at least 85 I would repeak it. Also, if you have a diplexor, try bypassing it and see what that does for your signal.

Thanks for the response. But, most of that doesn't apply in my situation. The 24" dish was the original install with its own arm and presumably properly peaked. I knew of the rain fade issues and went out on my own prior to my original install and purchased a 24" Winegard dish with the proper arm for Voom's LNB. My signal is always 96-97, except with rain. The night it went out for 45 minutes, it dropped to 0. I don't know how far it drops when the rain isn't as hard and it just alternates for a few minutes between macroblocks and freezes. I'll check next time that happens.

I agree though, the installer is either B.S. 'ing me that he never gets rain fade with his 18" dish or he isn't watching very often. This is South Florida. Starting about now we drown frogs on a daily basis.

What perplexed me was his assertion that even though my box shows it is getting a 96-97 signal from the dish that "how do you know it is really processing that signal strength". That forms the basis of his position that we should switch out the box before considering installing a 30" dish. I don't want to give up a box that is working perfectly (considering the problems some people apparently face with flakey boxes) for some off-the-wall theory on rain fade when it is really one of two situations, or a combination of both - bigger dish will help but rain fade will never completely go away.

Was just looking for an opinion from someone with more knowledge than I as to whether the installer's statement about how much of the signal the STB is really processing is the cause of my rain fade should be ignored or considered.

 

[txdude]

Ricks,

Also keep in mind that you can have a rain fade problem even if it not raining in your immediate area, and because of the low angle of the dish, rain-fade may also be more pronounced than if your dish was pointed at a higher angle. Essentially your signal goes through more atmosphere at the lower angle. More atmosphere = more water to breakup your signal.

I personally have seen rain-fade when it was sunny and clear at my house, but when I went out and looked out to the south east where my dish is pointed, there was some very large thunderstorms that were breaking up my signal.

 

[barth2k]

this stb is such a p.o.s. i wouldn't be surprised if it's a contributory factor.

but, isn't the problem mostly cause the sat is too low in the sky. i had d* for 3 yrs and only got rain fade in a bona fide it's-raining-cats-n-dogs all out storm, which we get like 1 every 2 yrs here in socal.

 

[bbtkd]

Ricks,

Also keep in mind that you can have a rain fade problem even if it not raining in your immediate area, and because of the low angle of the dish, rain-fade may also be more pronounced than if your dish was pointed at a higher angle. Essentially your signal goes through more atmosphere at the lower angle. More atmosphere = more water to breakup your signal.

I personally have seen rain-fade when it was sunny and clear at my house, but when I went out and looked out to the south east where my dish is pointed, there was some very large thunderstorms that were breaking up my signal.

In Florida it should not be low on the horizon.

 

[flipper2001]

I haven't seen this aspect of rain fade discussed previously. Possibly because it's B.S.

Live in South Florida and we're now into the rainy season. I sometimes survive a slight drizzle. Not particularly hard storms cause freezes and macroblocks that usually last off-and-on for five minutes or so. One fairly hard storm caused complete loss of signal for over 45 minutes when I gave up and went to bed.

Discussed this with my installer. I don't think he's the greatest that ever lived, but he's far from the worst. Owns his own company and clearly has considerable knowledge. On top of that, he is also a Voom subscriber and loves the product.

I already have a 24" dish I bought. I want to go to a 30" to see if it will help. He insists (contrary to what I experience and what many others say) that rain fade with Voom is not an issue. He says he uses an 18" dish and has absolutely no rain fade.

He thinks that rather than put in a 30" dish, we should replace my STB. I countered with, "why, when I have no issues with the box - it is rock solid and my signal strength is 96-97?" He says, "how do you know the STB is really processing that full signal? If you are having problems with rain, it is more likely the box than it is the dish."

All of this is a new one for me and something I have difficulty accepting from a logical standpoint. Anyone far more knowledgeable than I care to chip in here with an opinion? Is he B.S'ing me cause he doesn't want to change out the dish? Or is there some possible validity to his opinion that changing the STB might resolve or improve the rain fade issue?

I live in South Florida also (PPines) and I have D* and never have problems with rain fade. With Voom, the slightest drizzel and it starts to get blocky. During the rain, my D* is still showing it's usual 92+ signal. I never looked at voom signal during rain yet, but on clear day im getting 94 signal on voom. I had a box switch today (for another reason) and asked the installer about the rain issue and he said it's because voom sat is in different position then d* and thats why i dont lose that one. But he claims I dont have a perfect line of sight to Voom sat (????) but it's 94 when clear.

 

[ricks]

I had a box switch today (for another reason) and asked the installer about the rain issue and he said it's because voom sat is in different position then d* and thats why i dont lose that one. But he claims I dont have a perfect line of sight to Voom sat (????) but it's 94 when clear.

Installers will tell you anything just to get done and out of there. That's why I asked about the STB/rain fade advice, which I frankly just don't buy. My elevation here in S. Florida is 53 degrees. That's not an issue as it may well be on the West coast. I read somewhere a long time ago that one of the reasons Voom appears more prone to rain fade is the manner in which their signal is encoded, which is different than the others. The exact technical explanation is way beyond my capabilities. I haven't read anything that leads me to believe there is a solution currently other than getting the biggest dish you can and praying for no rain when you want to watch. I wonder if come October, with the new coding, if the situation will improve.

What your installer told you seems pure B.S. to me. No matter where the D* sat is located, you will still get rain either overhead or in that direction. And, while I don't know if you are peaked properly, LOS can't be an issue for you.

 

[bbtkd]

What your installer told you seems pure B.S. to me. No matter where the D* sat is located, you will still get rain either overhead or in that direction. And, while I don't know if you are peaked properly, LOS can't be an issue for you.

It is true that a satellite overhead will provide a stronger signal, for several reasons. First of all, when it is lower on the horizon the signal is going through more atmosphere so there could potentially be more signal loss due to clouds. I believe this effect to minimal except on the left coast.

The second and more likely impact is that is as you aim a dish lower towards the horizon, you begin to pick up more radiation from ground sources. I work in the satellite remote sensing industry and our 10M dish can pick up a usable signal down to about 3 degrees above the horizon when tracking non-geostationary satellites. The closer to the ground we get, the more terrestrial microwave noise we get - from microwave towers but also the earth itself. I believe this effect to be minimal except on the left coast.

Lastly, the closer you get to the horizon, the more likely you will not have line-of-sight due to obstructions (houses, trees, water towers). We have to deal with our watertower and other dishes - so we lined up our dishes and water tower so that any dish is only blocked in two directions. That water tower is a real annoyance. This will be a bigger problem the closer you get to the left coast.

In the end - I believe that the primary Voom signal problem is the signal coming from the satellite. If DirecTV or Dish were in the same inclination that Voom is - they would still work just fine with the 18" dish through much of the US. I caveat that by saying that those on the left coast do require larger dishes and may not have line-of-sight. Until/unless Voom rectifies the issue on the satellite end we can improve, but not eliminate the rain fade by using larger dishes. Voom management realizes and has admitted this - wish they would share this with the CSR's and installers though.