Storm Fade - Alaska Dish

[SBKC]

I am in an Emerg Operations Center in KC, the very heart of America. Obviously, television is a critical part of our operation, especially during the harshest of weather. We use a combination of OTA, cable and DirecTV, but DTV has our broadest range of channels, so we want to get the most out of it. My primary TVs can receive all the sources, but many of my individual user TVs just get DTV.

Currently we have the "standard" SlimLine with an SL5K LNB. It uses several amps to come down 11 floors to our office. Our normal reception is good and the vendor is very quick to point to our strong signal strength, but always on a clear day. We don't DO clear days. But, compared to my home Dish network, we seem to lose signal in a much lighter storm than we should.

While I think I have a decent understanding, I'm no expert and most of my experience is with 2 way comms. If I may pick some brains.

I am pushing for a 1.2 meter "Alaska Dish", the theory being that the bigger dish will pull in the storm weakened signal better and keep the signal longer than a standard dish. Of course, the vendor keeps saying NOT NEEDED and NOT RECOMMENDED, which is get for NORMAL installs, but I'm not normal.

From what I can tell, I have to choose an LNB that gets 99, 101, and 103. I lose a few international channels, but that's not really a concern. I can't find my local channels. How can I tell if they are on those satellites?

It doesn't appear to be a LOT of money. Am I wasting time? Giving up something? Missing something altogether? I'd welcome your expertise. I know I can't be storm PROOF, but I think I can do better than I am.

Thanks all.

 

[AZ.]

Yes it would help.....Keeping channels on SD would eliminate many drop outs....HS on direct is KA band and is a very small tight signal that a drop of water can block much easier....

 

[SBKC]

Yes it would help.....Keeping channels on SD would eliminate many drop outs....HS on direct is KA band and is a very small tight signal that a drop of water can block much easier....

Hmmmm. DTV is my HD option, but that's good to know. I have 20 tuners in a head in system. Each tuner is set to a specific channel and rarely changed. There is no "direct access" really to change them. But, I could set up an SD alternate for the key channels. I fear I've spoiled a lot of my users on HD though. My hope is that the bigger dish will cover all but the worse storms.

Supposed to have some rain this weekend. I'll try switching to SD and see what happens. Are the SD channels a different satellite or just less susceptible to rain fade?

 

[Drucifer]

11th Stories up, I would say you have a building sway with smallest of wind.

 

[SBKC]

11th Stories up, I would say you have a building sway with smallest of wind.

Wow, never even thought of that, but I don't think so. 10 story building and I'm on the elevator penthouse. I have a number of microwaves up there and have never had a problem with them. But WOW I NEVER thought about that.

 

[texasbrit]

SD channels use a frequency which is much less susceptible to "rain fade" than the HD frequencies. The alaska/hawaii dish will give you signal strength improvement but nowhere near enough to overcome the losses in big storms. You might get an extra few seconds at the beginning and end of the storm but not enough to make a difference.

 

[Jw2016]

I am in an Emerg Operations Center in KC, the very heart of America. Obviously, television is a critical part of our operation, especially during the harshest of weather. We use a combination of OTA, cable and DirecTV, but DTV has our broadest range of channels, so we want to get the most out of it. My primary TVs can receive all the sources, but many of my individual user TVs just get DTV.

Currently we have the "standard" SlimLine with an SL5K LNB. It uses several amps to come down 11 floors to our office. Our normal reception is good and the vendor is very quick to point to our strong signal strength, but always on a clear day. We don't DO clear days. But, compared to my home Dish network, we seem to lose signal in a much lighter storm than we should.

While I think I have a decent understanding, I'm no expert and most of my experience is with 2 way comms. If I may pick some brains.

I am pushing for a 1.2 meter "Alaska Dish", the theory being that the bigger dish will pull in the storm weakened signal better and keep the signal longer than a standard dish. Of course, the vendor keeps saying NOT NEEDED and NOT RECOMMENDED, which is get for NORMAL installs, but I'm not normal.

From what I can tell, I have to choose an LNB that gets 99, 101, and 103. I lose a few international channels, but that's not really a concern. I can't find my local channels. How can I tell if they are on those satellites?

It doesn't appear to be a LOT of money. Am I wasting time? Giving up something? Missing something altogether? I'd welcome your expertise. I know I can't be storm PROOF, but I think I can do better than I am.

Thanks all.

I have seen one of those at Mike Kohl's place in Wisconsin and it's huge!. When saw this dish just, it was designed to work on the 101° satellite only since no special LNB or skew adjustment were on this particular dish. It was such a along time ago that 99° and 103° were not active for video services yet. These dishes would help rain fade from channels on the 101° satellite but not completely get rid of it. The signal has to travel thru the storm and the atmosphere plus the size of the raindrops are close enough in wavelength to absorb the signal. In this case it's not the size that matters it's mother nature at work. It would be nice to get the one that is for the three satellites. Would definitely help on the duration of the fade or for the storm would have to be more "severe" than usual.

Another problem is convincing the wifey I need another dish in the backyard.

 

[SBKC]

I have seen one of those at Mike Kohl's place in Wisconsin and it's huge!. When saw this dish just, it was designed to work on the 101° satellite only since no special LNB or skew adjustment were on this particular dish. It was such a along time ago that 99° and 103° were not active for video services yet. These dishes would help rain fade from channels on the 101° satellite but not completely get rid of it. The signal has to travel thru the storm and the atmosphere plus the size of the raindrops are close enough in wavelength to absorb the signal. In this case it's not the size that matters it's mother nature at work. It would be nice to get the one that is for the three satellites. Would definitely help on the duration of the fade or for the storm would have to be more "severe" than usual.

Another problem is convincing the wifey I need another dish in the backyard.

Wifey, boss . . . I get that. Part of my process here.

Project spec called for an Alaska Dish, but vendor didn't install it. Cited the need for 5 bird LNB and a DTV spec that had a map and "Not Recommended" for our location. Then managed to convince boss that they were "experts" and had done hundreds of these. Eventually he tried to convince me that rain hit the dish and distorted the shape and that bigger meant more distortion and that cable length/size didn't matter at all. While I already knew he was clueless, it gave me something to work with. We KNEW there would be storm fade and built in cable for that reason, but I have limited channels there. IMO the signal loss is much greater than it should be. I took down 4, 8' dishes so I'm not really worried about the size of one up there. It's invisible from the ground anyway.

Seems to me that $500-$600 would make a significant difference in fade and I can't find any indication of a need for anything more than 99, 101, & 103 but I cannot find where my local channels are. Trying to counter vendor objections that I know are coming.

Thanks.

 

[texasbrit]

http://blog.solidsignal.com/content.php/2901-BEWARE-the-1-2-meter-Alaska-Hawaii-dish

The dish gives you an extra 5 db or so which is useful to combat rain fade on 101 but is totally overwhelmed by the signal losses on 99/103 (the HD satellites) which can easily reach 30db or more. People have tried it but came to the conclusion it just was not worth the money and the hassle, all it does is cut the rain fade time by a few seconds at the beginning and end of the storm. You need one dish for 99/101/103 and a second dish if you want 119.

 

[Jimbo]

Just curious, what coax was used to run 11 stories ?

How many barrels or splitters ?

 

[alnielsen]

Are you running RG-6 cable from the dish? There are transmission lines that have less loss at the higher frequencies. I just don't have any experience in using them for a Directv application.

 

[texasbrit]

I was having the same thoughts. Using RG11 instead of RG6 might help a little.

 

[SBKC]

Having some problems getting my replies to "take".

We are running RG11. Dish is on the top of the elevator penthouse, 11 floors up. No obstructions. No sway. Running RG11 about 150' to an amp. From there, about a 400' run of solid RG11, no barrels, down an abandoned shaft to my IT closet where it goes into two more amps. My signal strength coming out of the amps, according to vendor, is 95%. From there it goes to a head in unit where it uses taps to split and go to 20 DTV tuners whose output then goes into my AV management system. Each tuner is "assigned" a channel. A mix of local channels, national, news, weather and a few entertainment channels. The DTV is the primary HD source. When if fails, I can switch to either OTA or cable box depending on the channel, but it takes some knowledge and we don't get HD. My goal is to keep the primary system going as much as possible. I realize HEAVY rains will take us out, but right now I'm losing DTV in moderate rain conditions.

Don't think it matters, but we do run RG6 from the head-in to the individual TVs, but not a factor here.

Spent a LOT of money on a head-in system, not to mention the rest of the facility. Just seems silly to lower my threshold to moderate rain if $500 will fix it.

Thanks all.

 

[texasbrit]

As I posted, the Alaska/Hawaii dish is probably not going to help you much. The attenuation in severe storms at the Ka band used for hidef signals can be well in excess of 30db, as compared with maybe 10db at Ku band (SD signals). These factors are well known to designers of satellite communications systems and there has been a ton of research including development of theoretical models to help in the design of these systems.
Note that the signal strength coming out of the amps is pretty irrelevant. The SWM LNBs for example have automatic gain control so that there is plenty of signal being sent to the receivers. But all that does if there is no real signal to begin with is to amplify the noise.

 

[alnielsen]

Right now the SD signals on 101 satellite are on the Ku band. Directv is in the future going to end SD transmissions. This will allow them to move HD signals onto those more weather resistant transponders. Of course, we don't know which ones will be the ones to move or if this will help you. I would hope they move the 2 weather networks there.

 

[csloan1981]

I would dither the dish and put rainx on it and that should help. Putting all those amps in it increases noise which is bad!


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[SBKC]

I would dither the dish and put rainx on it and that should help. Putting all those amps in it increases noise which is bad!


Sent from my iPhone using SatelliteGuys mobile app

I'd love to lose the amps, but stuck with them on a 600'+ cable run.

 

[texasbrit]

I would dither the dish and put rainx on it and that should help. Putting all those amps in it increases noise which is bad!


Sent from my iPhone using SatelliteGuys mobile app

rainx won't help this problem. rain fade isn't generally caused by rain at the dish, it's the storm centers (red on the weather radar) between the dish and the satellite. And a 600ft run is going to need amplification somewhere.

None of these things are going to solve the problem of signal attenuation at Ka frequencies.

 

[Jimbo]

rainx won't help this problem. rain fade isn't generally caused by rain at the dish, it's the storm centers (red on the weather radar) between the dish and the satellite. And a 600ft run is going to need amplification somewhere.

None of these things are going to solve the problem of signal attenuation at Ka frequencies.

Correct ...
Op,
During the storm, if the signal is considerably lower, which would be typical, you don't want to amplify an already low signal.
You need to make the signal better at the dish, that can't be done down the line.
Was your signal at the dish peaked to the very best it can get ?
That is where you need to start.

Rainex, Pam ect is helpful if you dealing with maybe snow build up .... but d I es nothing in this situation ... btw, snow normally doesn't cause issues either, UNLESS it's heavy Wet snow.

The issue still is the Storm itself that is blocking the signal up in the clouds.
This is why if you lose singal, often times it will be Before the storm gets there. (Depending on where you live) .... Most storms come from the SW ... also where the dish needs to be pointed.

 

[SBKC]

Correct ...
Op,
During the storm, if the signal is considerably lower, which would be typical, you don't want to amplify an already low signal.
You need to make the signal better at the dish, that can't be done down the line.
Was your signal at the dish peaked to the very best it can get ?
That is where you need to start.

Rainex, Pam ect is helpful if you dealing with maybe snow build up .... but d I es nothing in this situation ... btw, snow normally doesn't cause issues either, UNLESS it's heavy Wet snow.

The issue still is the Storm itself that is blocking the signal up in the clouds.
This is why if you lose singal, often times it will be Before the storm gets there. (Depending on where you live) .... Most storms come from the SW ... also where the dish needs to be pointed.

It's been peaked. It is above everything else for blocks around so it has an absolute clear view. I am stuck with the amps. My hope was the bigger dish would increase the SNR and allow me to operate in a little heavier weather. Size really isn't a concern, it's hidden from view. The $500-$1000 cost isn't a big deal either considering the overall project cost and vendor assurances (it's on him to fix). But it's sounding like size isn't going to help so I've got the best I'm going to do. I'm pretty disappointed in the storm performance thus far. I may need to look at smoothing out my alternates.

You all have been a great help, even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear.