What's happening with the Sat Launch?

[treiher]

I saw in another post that reviewed the options, slingshot around the moon, use the satellites internal engine to raise the orbit or just deorbit. A number of times they chose to just deorbit the satellite so they could collect the insurance money as a full loss. If they did put into orbit and use it then while they'd get some insurance money it wouldn't be the full cost of the satellite.

There was another satellite in addition to the Asiasat which was saved this way, Arabsat 4, which was stranded in low orbit back in 2006 by . . . a Russian Proton 2nd stage burn anomaly! Looks like slingshot around the moon was talked about for awhile on this one too, and then they decided it wouldn't work. It's going to be quite awhile I have feeling before we know the fate of AMC-14.

 

[Slamminc11]

Well the term fat, dumb, and happy is just a metaphor for people out there that don't really care about any of this. They are just watching tv and would only care if they lost what they had now. They are not studying what might happen. No disrespect was intended to anyone. But in truth only the tech savy really are watching this situation. And that is in reality just a very small percentage.

Correct. Out of Dish's 14 million customers, my guess is less than 1 million of them even knew or cared that a sat was going up last night and maybe 1 or 2% of that million at most are tech savy enough to understand what it all means.

 

[nlk10010]

Well the term fat, dumb, and happy is just a metaphor for people out there that don't really care about any of this. They are just watching tv and would only care if they lost what they had now. They are not studying what might happen. No disrespect was intended to anyone. But in truth only the tech savy really are watching this situation. And that is in reality just a very small percentage.

I understand completely, no admonishment intended.

It's just that sometimes we tend to view certain types of people; e.g. farmers, blue collar workers as hicks and rubes who keep looking in the back of their TV to see how all those people can fit in the little box. Maybe some of them do, but most are just people with interests other than exploring the intricacies of their TV service.

The point that you're making is absolutely correct, of course. The majority, I would even say the vast majority, of Dish customers are people whose channel requirements are modest and may even be quite happy without HD. But they DO need their locals and certain other channels. That is why I say that for those of us who are, as you put it, "tech savvy", D* may be the better option because Charlie is going to concentrate on satisfying his core customer base.

 

[skyviewmark]

I said if more and more channels do what SciFi's doing, not just limted it to SciFi.

OK, I'll make is simple for you, USA, FX, Speed, Spike, CNBC, CNN, TWC, Sho Too, Starz Kids, Starz Comedy ... start putting a bug up saying this program is available in HD.

I am not trying to make an argument, I promise

But most of my customers don't even have HD in the first place. They are just now starting to call me and ask about what is going to happen next year when the analog is shut down. The news and commercials here are frightening everyone into believing they are not going to be able to see tv without buying a new TV. So I don't see many of them being concerned that no new HD Channels are being added..

I on the other hand am not happy about what is happening, although I do have both Dish And DirecTV at my house and have lots of HD.. I just want more..

 

[skyviewmark]

I understand completely, no admonishment intended.

It's just that sometimes we tend to view certain types of people; e.g. farmers, blue collar workers as hicks and rubes who keep looking in the back of their TV to see how all those people can fit in the little box. Maybe some of them do, but most are just people with interests other than exploring the intricacies of their TV service.

The point that you're making is absolutely correct, of course. The majority, I would even say the vast majority, of Dish customers are people whose channel requirements are modest and may even be quite happy without HD. But they DO need their locals and certain other channels. That is why I say that for those of us who are, as you put it, "tech savvy", D* may be the better option because Charlie is going to concentrate on satisfying his core customer base.

My guess is the really tech savy have already made the move or like me just have both so they don't miss anything.. I suspect that if my cable company here had more than 8 HD channels and had anything different that I already have, I would have it hooked up also. And yes, those tech savy that pay attention and can't afford more than one service, may very well switch after this. Charlie is going to do everything he can, but he is not going to mess with his core basic customers that keep the lights on.

 

[mike123abc]

If they have to use 2/3 of the onboard fuel to get it to 61.5 it would be a good compromise. The estimated lifespan was 15 years, this would give them 5 years of fuel left. Enough time to build yet another satellite and get it up.

I still wonder if they were really going to end up putting this satellite at 77. I know they are trying the E6 stunt now to force the issue of Canadian interference from 77. It is interesting they chose to do the 77 interference testing while they were going to test AMC-14. Perhaps just move AMC-14 to 77 instead of 61.5 at the end of testing if they get approval to use 77.

AMC-14 is supposed to have a fancy phased array transmitter that will allow the dynamic reshaping of the downlink footprint. Perhaps they would be able to cut the interference way down with Canada by making the footprint cut off close to the Canadian boarder. The problem with multi satellite dishes would be greatest the farther north and west you go in Canada, by cutting the signal to those areas interference could be minimized.

 

[WiCkeDuDe]

Not only are you right about most customers not knowing there was a satellite launch scheduled, most Dish Customers I have don't even know that there is a deficit in HD Channels compared to DirecTV. Most of my customers are happily watching their Dish System with no complaints. The term fat,dumb and happy comes to mind..

I have to agree here. Of all the installs I did for dish I would have to say that less than 5% of them were HD installs. Most all were simple SD installs with fewer than 4 tuners. Hell most of the customers thought Dish was all HD. The confusion being all digital meant HD which was not true.

Of course this site has many people that follow the HD craze, myself included, though its not that important to me. I have dish HD and dont watch it all that much anyways.

In reality though what percentage do you think this site makes up in the overall customer numbers of dish? My guess is not many.

Most of my installs were for people who were thrilled to get satellite tv. Most had no idea what HD did or even was. Im sure dish cares very little about such a small percentage of its customer base. HD programming is still not quite primetime, at least in my area. Other areas im sure are more advanced. Not trying to ruffle any feathers here, just noting some observations. I always thought it was wierd that all Id read on here was about 622's and then go out and install 311 new connects.

 

[Smith P.]

Back to the topic.

As Russians reported, the second burn ( of three ) of second stage did premature shutoff ( 130 second before normal ) and AMC-14 has been released unexpectedly.
So, the sat is alone now .

 

[navychop]

For those folks that say "just replace all the MPEG-2 receivers with MPEG-4 receivers" - There are AT LEAST 10 or 12 million MPEG-2 boxes out there, probably quite a few more. Think Dish has a spare billion dollars laying around to do this, and the Magic Fairy has a factory to pump them out ASAP?

For Polk and the others that keep belittling Russian space hardware. The Proton launch vehicle has about a 98% success rate. It has made over 325 launches in all it's variations. The 325th launch was in April 2007. The Russians have made more space launches than the U.S. - indeed, probably more than the rest of the world combined. And I can assure you, most of their military hardware is top notch. Might I refer you to the word chauvinism.

And we seem to be ignoring Scott's post #214 earlier in this thread.

This satellite was not Dish Networks satellite to insure as it was not theirs. The satellite belongs to SES Americom who was in turn planning on leasing it to Dish.

I think Echostar 3 has some more life to it (but can't hand anymore on board failured) as Dish wanted to keep it around as an in orbit spare. I dont know if this failure will affect Dish Networks plans at all, but I can see them doing some shuffling of birds in the future.

This might not impact Dish's plans too much. No reason to take joy and immediately prophesy gloom and doom. Schadenfreude.

 

[RobbinM]

That may not last that long is more and more channels do what SciFi's been doing putting a bug up saying available in HD on their programs.

Assuming the "experts" are correct about most people's perception of HD, if the bug indicates that the program is available in HD, then the average consumer probably thinks they are already getting the program in HD.

This also assumes that people are actually watching the bug -- so much stuff in put into that part of the screen that I think we have learned to tune it out.

 

[Smith P.]

Would you PLEASE continue discuss Dish business in other dedicated thread ?!

The topic about what ? Look at that.

Assuming the "experts" are correct about most people's perception of HD, if the bug indicates that the program is available in HD, then the average consumer probably thinks they are already getting the program in HD.

This also assumes that people are actually watching the bug -- so much stuff in put into that part of the screen that I think we have learned to tune it out.

 

[digiblur]

If they have to use 2/3 of the onboard fuel to get it to 61.5 it would be a good compromise. The estimated lifespan was 15 years, this would give them 5 years of fuel left. Enough time to build yet another satellite and get it up.

I still wonder if they were really going to end up putting this satellite at 77. I know they are trying the E6 stunt now to force the issue of Canadian interference from 77. It is interesting they chose to do the 77 interference testing while they were going to test AMC-14. Perhaps just move AMC-14 to 77 instead of 61.5 at the end of testing if they get approval to use 77.

AMC-14 is supposed to have a fancy phased array transmitter that will allow the dynamic reshaping of the downlink footprint. Perhaps they would be able to cut the interference way down with Canada by making the footprint cut off close to the Canadian boarder. The problem with multi satellite dishes would be greatest the farther north and west you go in Canada, by cutting the signal to those areas interference could be minimized.

If the insurer is not going to pay for the lost years of service then they'll just scrap the whole deal instead. It doesn't matter if they can do it or now, it all depends on the money.

 

[photoman76]

Spaceflight Now | Breaking News | Proton rocket suffers launch failure

 

[nelson61]

BY STEPHEN CLARK
SPACEFLIGHT NOW
Posted: March 15, 2008


For the second time in six months, a commercial launch of the Russian Proton rocket ended in failure early Saturday after an undetermined problem struck the booster's upper stage, leaving the mission's DISH Network broadcasting payload in a useless orbit.
The failure occurred near the end of the 34-minute-long second burn of the launcher's Breeze M upper stage, which features a single engine powered by explosive hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide propellants.
"The satellite failed to reach the planned orbit," International Launch Services said in a written statement.
The Proton was carrying AMC 14, a communications satellite owned by SES AMERICOM, a New Jersey-based satellite operator, destined to beam direct-to-home television programming for DISH Network.
ILS officials provided no further details on the nature of the failure, but Roscosmos, the Russian space agency, reported the Breeze M engine shut down two minutes and 13 seconds earlier than planned.
In an update posted on its Web site, Roscosmos said the stage and the AMC 14 payload reached an orbit with a high point of about 17,400 miles, about 5,000 miles short of the intended altitude at the end of the burn.
The Breeze M deployed the spacecraft shortly after the early engine shutdown, and SES AMERICOM will now be faced with making future plans for the stranded satellite, Roscosmos said.
AMC 14 could reach its target orbit if there is enough space fuel on-board, or officials could elect to use a dramatic lunar flyby to use the moon's gravity to slingshot the craft into geosynchronous orbit. Such a maneuver succeeded in 1998 for AsiaSat 3, another satellite victim of a Proton failure.
Owners of other communications birds left in low orbits have considered similar measures, but opted instead to de-orbit their satellites for insurance purposes.
It is unclear what options SES AMERICOM may consider for AMC 14.
ILS is the firm responsible for commercially marketing the Proton rocket to international customers. The U.S.-based company is jointly owned by Space Transport Inc. and Khrunichev, the Russian manufacturer of the Proton rocket and Breeze M upper stage.
Friday's launch was the 45th for ILS since it began Proton missions in 1996. Five of those flights have been unsuccessful, and four of the failures were caused by upper stage malfunctions.
The failure also marked the second botched launch of a commercial Proton mission in just over six months. Another ILS Proton crashed to Earth on Sept. 5 after a damaged electrical cable caused an anomaly during the separation of the rocket's first and second stages.
Since the September failure, the Proton had successfully completed six flights for Russian government and commercial customers.
The Proton flight appeared flawless during the first hour of flight. Liftoff of the 184-foot-tall rocket was at 2318:55 GMT (7:18:55 p.m. EDT) Friday, or early Saturday morning at the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan.
The Proton disappeared into thick clouds about 40 seconds after launch, eventually jettisoning its first stage just over two minutes into the flight. The rocket's second and third stages both fired as planned, propelling the Breeze M upper stage and the 9,127-pound AMC 14 satellite into a suborbital trajectory within the first ten minutes of the mission.
The Breeze M fired first to loft AMC 14 into a circular parking orbit with an altitude of about 107 miles and an inclination of 51.5 degrees to the equator.
The botched second burn was to have further boosted the payload into an elongated transfer orbit with a high point of 22,211 miles and a low point of 553 miles.
A final maneuver nearly seven hours after liftoff would have drastically raised the transfer orbit's perigee to 3,888 miles and reduced its inclination to 19.7 degrees, much closer to the satellite's eventual target of zero degrees. The third firing would have been closely followed by spacecraft separation in a normal launch.
Russian officials set up a state investigation commission to scrutinize the failure, and ILS will form its own oversight board to review the commission's findings and assemble a report.
"ILS remains committed to providing reliable, timely launch services for all of its customers," ILS said a written statement. "To this end, ILS will work diligently with its partner Khrunichev to return Proton to flight as soon as possible."
Built by Lockheed Martin Corp., AMC 14 would have been parked in geosynchronous orbit at 61.5 degrees west longitude. The satellite's 32 Ku-band transponders were designed to serve the continental United States during a 15-year mission.
SES AMERICOM was to have tested the high-power satellite's communications instruments before handing it over to EchoStar Corp.
A corporate customer of SES AMERICOM's direct broadcasting unit, EchoStar would have used the spacecraft to beam high-definition television programming directly into homes and businesses across the continental United States under the DISH Network umbrella. Communications specialists were also eager to test AMC 14's next-generation phased array antenna, a leap in technology that allows satellites to reshape their ground coverage in orbit.

 

[Cowchip]

Unfortunately I called it during the chat when I mentioned to not crack the champagne just yet, after everyone was all giddy and throwing around premature congratulations. Until it's in place and transmitting it might as well be floating in the ocean.

As Winston Wolf said in Pulp Fiction: "Let's not start sucking each other's d**ks quite yet."

 

[articos]

BY STEPHEN CLARK
SPACEFLIGHT NOW
Posted: March 15, 2008


Another ILS Proton crashed to Earth on Sept. 5 after a damaged electrical cable caused an anomaly during the separation of the rocket's first and second stages.

P. Smith, there's the answer to your earlier question about why SAAB space was called out. They're specifically stating they're monitoring due to that previous failure.

 

[Dishlover]

With the few HD programs on the HD channels Dish doesn't have , they should simply make those programs available on demand. Why waste all that bandwidth on 90% SD channels. IPTV is definitely the future. If they can salvage 5 years out of that satelite they should do it, IPTV will be the standard by then.

 

[drdroo]

Dish should consider leveraging their IPTV interests. I'd take some shows in HD even if I had to download it, especially if they could do some programming as part of my existing pricing.

If they reduce IPTV rental costs, I'd maybe even pay something out here and there.

As long as it can download in < a day, it'll beat Netflix.. I don't watch enough stuff to pay a monthly fee for Netflix.

 

[Dishlover]

I wasn't suggesting paying for "On Demand" for network shows! I would be able to live with four 10 second commercials that couldn't be skipped. This is what networks want and would go for it big time. Skipping commercials can not continue. Another reason why IPTV is the future. The FCC doesn't dictate HD OTA or the programs that can be broadcast. Free OTA could become all SD infomercials. Try to skip through that! In the grand scheme of things, this satelite is a short solution.

 

[Lord Darth Vader]

I have to agree here. Of all the installs I did for dish I would have to say that less than 5% of them were HD installs.

That's interesting, because a friend of mine who lives in the same complex I live and is a DirecTV installer says almost ALL the installs he does are HD ones, and that probably 95% of all other DirecTV service calls are upgrades from SD to HD.