Who "discovered" America? (split from "Uplink" thread)

[jayn_j]

To quote Morrisey, how soon is now?

Yep, it all depends on your timeframe.

"Colombus discovered the new world in 1492. Colonists soon started arriving" In this case "soon" was about a century.

I am currently trying to stuff a couple thousand pieces of info into a 100 us timeslice window. My definition of "soon" is a nanosecond.

 

[db2]

"Colombus discovered the new world in 1492. Colonists soon started arriving" In this case "soon" was about a century.

:haha lol :haha

 

[Tyralak]

Yep, it all depends on your timeframe.

"Colombus discovered the new world in 1492. Colonists soon started arriving" In this case "soon" was about a century.

Leif Erikson would quibble with you about that one.

 

[GNASH]

Leif Erikson would quibble with you about that one.

Why??? The poster didn't say Columbus was the FIRST Person to Discover the New World, just that he did Discover it in 1492. JK.

Besides, I don't think I would argue any point with someone as old as Leif Erickson. lol

Geoff

 

[Tyralak]

Why??? The poster didn't say Columbus was the FIRST Person to Discover the New World, just that he did Discover it in 1492. JK.

Besides, I don't think I would argue any point with someone as old as Leif Erickson. lol

Geoff

If he wasn't the first European to set foot in America, than he by defintion didn't "discover" it (at least as far as Europe is concerned.)

 

[TNGTony]

If you find something out and you never tell anyone and no one knows about it, then you die and your discovery dies with you and no one knows about it again. Then some one else comes around and discovers the same thing and tells everyone about it. Who is really the person that discovered the thing for that society?

The steam engine was first developed as a toy in ancient greece. Does that mean that Thomas Savery did not invent the steam engine engine some 2000 years later? The difference is it took off from his invention (new to him and everyone in that society but not a new idea or item to the human race)

And now back to your topic.

Sorry. I get all "pissy" about this Leif guy.

 

[jcrash]

The chinese

The Chinese in 1421.

 

[Tyralak]

If you find something out and you never tell anyone and no one knows about it, then you die and your discovery dies with you and no one knows about it again. Then some one else comes around and discovers the same thing and tells everyone about it. Who is really the person that discovered the thing for that society?

The steam engine was first developed as a toy in ancient greece. Does that mean that Thomas Savery did not invent the steam engine engine some 2000 years later? The difference is it took off from his invention (new to him and everyone in that society but not a new idea or item to the human race)

And now back to your topic.

Sorry. I get all "pissy" about this Leif guy.

If he never told anyone, how do we know about it? Plus it was more than his expedition. There were Viking settlements in Newfoundland and other places in that vacinity. Lots of people knew about it. BTW, the Romans also had steam power, but found that slaves were more cost-effective.

 

[gbjbany]

ok so this thread looks like it might be a long one !

Define "everyone" what defines that "everyone" new about it, clearly not everyone on the planet knew or even cared back them

And if there were native americans living here, then i think you can say they "discovered" it before any european or chinese person.

 

[TNGTony]

"Everyone" in this case means anyone who matters. People who finance other trips and set off a series of events that make use of the "discovery".

The key words in my frist statement are "for that society". The American Indians had no contact with Europe. The Europeans had no idea that this continent was here. Yes, Leif came to Greenland and there were two settlements that lasted about 100 years, but when the villages failed and the people there died, it was hundreds of years and many generations before Columbus. By that time the European society knew nothing of the previous discovery. So. If an entire society knows nothing about a certain item or place, and some one from that society finds all about it and tells that society, and by that little snippent of information, changes the society, didn't that person "discover" the place or thing for that society?

Let's take another tact. The Mayan, aztec and the Inca cultures never "discovered" the use of the wheel. They were isolated from Europe and Asia where the wheel had been used for millenia before. If some one in the aztec civilization had "discovered" the use of the wheel would that have been his discovery or not?

This is not the same thing as saying X was the first to climb Mt. Y. That is a finite thing.

Essentially the person who gets credit for discovery is not the first person to see it, it's the first person to see it and DO something about it in a way that changes the entire knowledge of a society.

Leif discovered America for the Vikings and a few settled in Greenland and maybe what is now Nova Scocia, but within a generation, the village was gone, the society was unchanged and then again no one in power of who cared new anything about it. It was only after the state-sponsored voyage Columbus that rapid changes hit the European society.

See ya
Tony

 

[Smith P.]

Tony, then native population what was created by migration ppl from northeast of Asia, who discovered the land and raised many generations long time before Leif or Eric or Columbus ...

 

[Peter Parker]

Leif Erikson would quibble with you about that one.

So would the people who were living here when Europeans "discovered" it. Why do those who came from elsewhere in the 1400s and later have a need to name a "discoverer"? Those of us who are in part descended from people who were already here don't wonder about who discovered Europe.

 

[voomvoom]

I thought Sears Financial Services did when they introduced the Discover Card...

 

[jayn_j]

I thought Sears Financial Services did when they introduced the Discover Card...

+1
My sort of pun.

I can't believe this took on a life of its own. I was just trying to establish the slipperyness of "soon"

 

[TNGTony]

I guess my statements are too long to follow.

No one in Europe (and we are a Euro-centric society) knew of the "new world" in 1492. It was new to them/us. The fact there were several complete cultural upheavals in the "new world" meant nothing to OUR present culture until after Columbus brought back the news to the Europeans who did not know about it. It was a discovery to Europe because no one in that society knew about it. All the vikings who were here and the knowledge about this continent died with them. The knowledge was lost! Just like the steam engine, it had to be reinvented/rediscovered.

See ya
Tony

 

[GNASH]

+1
My sort of pun.

I can't believe this took on a life of its own. I was just trying to establish the slipperyness of "soon"

I can't believe it took on a life of its own either. When I replied to your post, it was simply that I was in a punchy mood and wanted to contribute something very off the wall. However, I do enjoy watching a conversation (such as this one) that all of a sudden runs out of control.

Geoff

 

[Tyralak]

So would the people who were living here when Europeans "discovered" it. Why do those who came from elsewhere in the 1400s and later have a need to name a "discoverer"? Those of us who are in part descended from people who were already here don't wonder about who discovered Europe.

Of course Chief. No disrespect intended, however I was refering to European "discovery" of North America, rather than the peoples who had already found their way here thousands of years before.

 

[Tyralak]

I guess my statements are too long to follow.

No one in Europe (and we are a Euro-centric society) knew of the "new world" in 1492. It was new to them/us. The fact there were several complete cultural upheavals in the "new world" meant nothing to OUR present culture until after Columbus brought back the news to the Europeans who did not know about it. It was a discovery to Europe because no one in that society knew about it. All the vikings who were here and the knowledge about this continent died with them. The knowledge was lost! Just like the steam engine, it had to be reinvented/rediscovered.

See ya
Tony

The simple fact that we know about their travels shows that it wasn't lost. It was recorded in the Vinlandsagas, and was a known fact in Scandinavia. People in other parts of Europe such as Italy and Spain may not have been aware of it. Plus, if you'll recall Columbus was trying to find a route to India/China, not to find a new continent.

 

[Tyralak]

+1
My sort of pun.

I can't believe this took on a life of its own. I was just trying to establish the slipperyness of "soon"

Sorry to hijack the thread. Just to be clear, for future reference; When hijacking a thread, is it still customary to shout "Allah Akbar" or something similar to make known my intention to hijack the thread? :devil:

 

[Paul Wozniak]

I've always had a problem with a land being "discovered", that is already populated when you "discovered" it.