720p Decision

[T2k]

Good Read On Blu-Ray and HDDVD. Overall I think in the long run Blu-ray will be the standard for movies so on due to most of the big movie company's want Blu-Ray.Plus Sony and most of the big manufactures have already got Blu-Ray players and recorders made. To where HDDVD might be more for PC side of things since Microsoft is in the PC market.
Anyway here the read http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=175400242

BR is the most disgusting pro-MPAA consortium for long time.
If anybody spend 5 minutes with comparing the standards, anybody can see our best bet is clearly HD-DVD, not BR. When BR, despite its very weak protection layer (0.1mm versus DVD and HD-DVD's .6mm), dropped the cartridge, I decided to refuse this whole fake circus show around BR. They are much more about the circus than actual products - hwereas months ago I held a slim notebook HD-DVD drive in my hands at Toshiba's and MS' booth.
Seriously, BR is mostly vaporware promises until today (don't confuse those already outdated current BR-dubbed suitcase-sized units in Japan with upcoming BR). F.e. they announced almost a year ago one of their 50 gig disc - of which pilot production will just start in January. Hilarious. The biggest scam group ever, I think.

 

[T2k]

Must Read. 1080i vs 1080p.
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6361600-1.html
This really sums it up yes there is some benifts with 1080p but not a big diffrence. So just buy whats in your budget or what works in your enviorment the best.

Must... resists...

Man... seriously: did you bother to execute 1920x1080 and 1920x540 and 1280x720? If so, compare the numbers and get back to us whether you still really think 1080p is not a big difference...:devil:

 

[T2k]

This is what Sony has been saying that they will release their movies in on Blu-Ray. Their first release, "Charlie's Angels" that they will be showing at CES is in 1920x1080, and the player's output is 1080i. I suspect it will also have a 720p output option, but the player's electronics will have to downconvert the source first.

I would not be surprised if 2nd gen Blu-Ray players have 1080p outputs.

Now this doesn't mean that all Blu-Ray discs will be in 1920x1080, but I suspect the majority will be.

This is pretty far from being 'the' definitiove native format of BR...

Sony also said they will use MPEG2, they also released a handful of 1080i camcorders, they also said interlace is good - hence the stupid interlace from Sony. But Sony is far from being a trend-setter anymore - SOny became a follower years ago and apparently still haven't learned its lesson, still couldn't figure out why they've lost their #1 position in EVERY market they used to not only lead but drive too.

I'm pretty sure when you'll buy sport discs they'll be 720p60. Also 1080p24 actually requires less resource than 720p60, so unless somebody has a 1080i material already, there's really no point to convert it to interlaced, I think.

 

[T2k]

You are taking the position that a frame with 1920x540 resolution has "less" horizontal resolution than one with 1280x720 resolution?

Not at all. Perhaps I misread something... What I'm saying is that 540 is really less than 720.

For most people the flickering is not an issue because they don't even see it from a CRT rear projection. The alternate field refresh actually diminishes the perceived flicker effect.

Trust me, it's not like having a good progressive direct display set.

Here's another link on this topic for those interested:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html

Hahaha, I always laugh at this one: " A common opinion is (...)1080i looks better for documentaries, dramas, and most things that come 24 frames per second." - Who says this crap? Why would be an interlaced signal better for anything?

 

[Tom Bombadil]

BTW, Pioneer will be demo'ing their Blu-Ray drive at CES and supposedly will ship the unit in January (2006).

 

[Tom Bombadil]

Here's an example of why this long-standing debate has no definite answer.

Joe Kane is regarded by many as "THE" expert in testing for video quality. He has employed as a consultant by several content producers, as well as by Faroudja, Stewart, and Runco. He created the Digital Video Essentials products for testing and calibrating HDTV sets, not only for consumers but for professional ISF calibrators.

http://www.videoessentials.com/
http://www.joekane.com/

Just two weeks ago, during an interview, Kane stated that the current champion of HDTV quality was still a calibrated CRT rear projection set with 9" CRTs.

 

[Sarang]

I honestly suggest right now you don't pop for the big screen and you get an HD CRT and wait for the SED since it'll satisfy picture quality desires and big size. /me crosses fingers that poster of topic has bought a CRT instead of a LCD or Plasma or DLP.
I'm with T2K here on HD-DVD. I've been hearing Sony hasn't manged to put out the so-called giant sized BR discs they've been saying they will outside of the lab. Also if they have pulled it WHY would they be going interlaced vs. 720p? This just doesn't make sense to me since there would be ample space on the disc to provide it. If Sony's gonna play this game and Toshiba will offer me 720p on HD-DVD I'll take that even if the disc storage is less, also I'll enjoy watching on a Toshiba SED when I have the money to get one.

 

[SimpleSimon]

Its pointless to argue this as you cannot convince me otherwise or I you.

Closed minds are real hard to teach.

For the benefit of the readers that wish to learn, Deno is WRONG.

For any given horzontal size, the bandwidth (amount of content) from least t most is as follows: 480i (=240p), 480p, 1080i (=540p), 720p, 1080p.

Note that in reality, there is no 480i format to match with the HD versions, so that part is hypothetcal - but it's all just straight math.

This is not false!! 1080i and 1080p yes 1080p is better but It's not like a night day diffrence is all I'm saying When is all said and done its how things are broadcast on the other end.

Everything else being equal, 1080p has TWICE the content of 1080i.

 

[deno24]

Must... resists...
Man... seriously: did you bother to execute 1920x1080 and 1920x540 and 1280x720? If so, compare the numbers and get back to us whether you still really think 1080p is not a big difference...:devil:

I will compare the numbers.... 1920x1080=2073600
1920x540 =1036800- also known as 1920x1080i
1280x720 = 921600
There you go buddy numbers dont lie... That should lay the argument over PQ
between 780p and 1080i to rest . Not only does 1080i have more horizontal lines
of resolution than 720p its has more pixals as well. Do the math!
I dont know how you judge PQ but it ultimatley boils down to resolution. Which
if you go by the numbers ( as you sugested ) proves 1080i has better PQ than 720p.
:up

" For the benefit of the readers that wish to learn, Deno is WRONG."

This argument has gone on since the inseption of 1080i and 720p all of the sudden someone is wrong? cmon

 

[deno24]

Here's an example of why this long-standing debate has no definite answer.

Joe Kane is regarded by many as "THE" expert in testing for video quality. He has employed as a consultant by several content producers, as well as by Faroudja, Stewart, and Runco. He created the Digital Video Essentials products for testing and calibrating HDTV sets, not only for consumers but for professional ISF calibrators.

http://www.videoessentials.com/
http://www.joekane.com/

Just two weeks ago, during an interview, Kane stated that the current champion of HDTV quality was still a calibrated CRT rear projection set with 9" CRTs.

I alluded to that in an earlier post about CRT's. As long as they make em I will buy em. 1080i and a CRT RPTV, you cant go wrong.

 

[T2k]

I will compare the numbers.... 1920x1080=2073600
1920x540 =1036800- also known as 1920x1080i
1280x720 = 921600
There you go buddy numbers dont lie... That should lay the argument over PQ
between 780p and 1080i to rest . Not only does 1080i have more horizontal lines
of resolution than 720p its has more pixals as well. Do the math!
I dont know how you judge PQ but it ultimatley boils down to resolution. Which
if you go by the numbers ( as you sugested ) proves 1080i has better PQ than 720p.
:up

" For the benefit of the readers that wish to learn, Deno is WRONG."

This argument has gone on since the inseption of 1080i and 720p all of the sudden someone is wrong? cmon

Man... that was my point: even the pixel count is pretty much the same but 1080i displays only odd or even lines at once, unlike a progressive full frame, let alone the 60 vs 30 frames.

Multiply all of your numbers with respective frames: 30, 30, 60 and you'll see how much information you get in every case.

Seriously, which part can't you grasp after all this explanation?

 

[T2k]

Closed minds are real hard to teach.
For the benefit of the readers that wish to learn, Deno is WRONG.
For any given horzontal size, the bandwidth (amount of content) from least t most is as follows: 480i (=240p), 480p, 1080i (=540p), 720p, 1080p.
Note that in reality, there is no 480i format to match with the HD versions, so that part is hypothetcal - but it's all just straight math.
Everything else being equal, 1080p has TWICE the content of 1080i.

Pretty much my points except that unfortunately current 1080p is 30 frames only, not 60, so sports still look better on 720p.

 

[deno24]

Man... that was my point: even the pixel count is pretty much the same but 1080i displays only odd or even lines at once, unlike a progressive full frame, let alone the 60 vs 30 frames.


even the pixal count is pretty much the same? I think not. At any given time 1080i displays over
115000 more pixals than 720p. I dont call that close at all, and when you realize
that pixal count determines resolution and PQ 1080i wins hands down.

 

[deno24]

Pretty much my points except that unfortunately current 1080p is 30 frames only, not 60, so sports still look better on 720p.

ok i will agree that (woohoo) fast motion is better on 720p though i have yet to see any jitters
on my CRT RPTV @ 1080i and I love my sports. But again when your lookin at 11500 more pixals with 1080i.......

 

[Tom Bombadil]

I like 720p as a format and would have no objection if nearly all HD content used 720p, as long as all of it was natively produced/captured into 720p. The smooth motion of 720p is wonderful.

I also like the future option of film being made available in 1080p24 or 1080p30. Those will look great on true 1080p sets.

Progressive is the way to go, for many reasons.

That said, for much content 1080i is pretty darn good. I don't understand why people are claiming 720p requires more bandwidth than 1080i when that simply isn't true. 1080i sets can produce stunning images, with no noticable flicker and great detail.

I won't make a case that 1080i is superior to 720p. However I will state that I'm glad the 1080i standard made it into the HD spec, because that established 1920x1080 as a standard resolution. As HDTVs improve, as projectors improve, as HD DVD formats & players improve, I like that 1920x1080 is in the mix and that we are not limited to only 1280x720.

 

[T2k]

Man... that was my point: even the pixel count is pretty much the same but 1080i displays only odd or even lines at once, unlike a progressive full frame, let alone the 60 vs 30 frames.
even the pixal count is pretty much the same? I think not. At any given time 1080i displays over
115000 more pixals than 720p. I dont call that close at all, and when you realize
that pixal count determines resolution and PQ 1080i wins hands down.

You're clearly a painfully utterly clueless and annoying thick-headed person who cannot f**kin understand the difference between a picture consists from every other line and a full frame.

Go and believe whatever you want, nobody cares - but stop spreading your clueless crap about this subject. YOU ARE WRONG.

 

[T2k]

ok i will agree that (woohoo) fast motion is better on 720p though i have yet to see any jitters
on my CRT RPTV @ 1080i and I love my sports. But again when your lookin at 11500 more pixals with 1080i.......

Yeah, and your missing every second lines...

 

[deno24]

well said

 

[T2k]

I like 720p as a format and would have no objection if nearly all HD content used 720p, as long as all of it was natively produced/captured into 720p. The smooth motion of 720p is wonderful.

I also like the future option of film being made available in 1080p24 or 1080p30. Those will look great on true 1080p sets.

Progressive is the way to go, for many reasons.

Exactly.

That said, for much content 1080i is pretty darn good. I don't understand why people are claiming 720p requires more bandwidth than 1080i when that simply isn't true.

Because 720p does require more bandwidth in some cases. It is true for 1080p24 but not for 1080i or 1080p30.
Calculate yourself: 1920x1080x24 vs 1280x720x60
EDIT: I posted wrong numbers first.

I won't make a case that 1080i is superior to 720p. However I will state that I'm glad the 1080i standard made it into the HD spec, because that established 1920x1080 as a standard resolution. As HDTVs improve, as projectors improve, as HD DVD formats & players improve, I like that 1920x1080 is in the mix and that we are not limited to only 1280x720.

I agree.

 

[vurbano]

Still shots on 1080i blow 720p away. And if your provider gives 1080i enough bandwidth it really negates the so called 720p advantage despite T2k's rantings. There is one question that puts an end to all of this. What is the absolute best NFL presentation youve ever seen??? CBS in HD 1080i at 18-19 mbps , hands down theres just no arguement.

Also given that 720p set must convert 1080i signals and vica versa, you are better off with a 1080i set since 90 of all broadcasters are 1080i. ESPNHD1,2,ABC and FOX are the only 720p that comes to my mind.