Cinema channel question about 720P (1 Viewer)

rexoverbey

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Apr 8, 2004
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I read at the yahoo newsgroup that the cinema 10 channels were in 720p. My Tv doesn't display in this mode it displays in 1080i, 480i/p. Does this mean that it will be down converted to 480i/p or upconverted to 1080i with the same 720p quality? Also are they planning on setting the signal back to 1080i? I know 720p could technically be considered lower quality HD but when people think of HD they think of 1080i. Maybe this is why everyone has noticed lower picture quality.

We were/are doing encoder upgrades and needed bandwidth to move them around while we upgrade and stay on the air.

720p is high def, by definition.
These are films and figured the reduction was more mental that actual to the user/viewer.
The upgrades are coming along well, if not a bit slowly but will get done.
Following that, the muxes get upgraded allowing us to use the transponders more efficiently, without changing(reducing) bit rate to get that efficiency.
Following that, all things being equal and no other issues we'll return to normal as before the upgrades.
Wilt
 

keno

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Feb 17, 2004
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rexoverbey said:
I read at the yahoo newsgroup that the cinema 10 channels were in 720p. My Tv doesn't display in this mode it displays in 1080i, 480i/p. Does this mean that it will be down converted to 480i/p or upconverted to 1080i with the same 720p quality? Also are they planning on setting the signal back to 1080i? I know 720p could technically be considered lower quality HD but when people think of HD they think of 1080i. Maybe this is why everyone has noticed lower picture quality.

The 720p format uses progressive scanning, which is just like your computer monitor. Progressive scan offers crystal clear images that virtually eliminates those scanning lines that are visible on most large screen televisions. Many new flat panel displays use progressive scan.

The 1080i format uses interlace scanning just like today's analog televisions.

The picture quality of 720p is no worse or better than 1080i (some will disagree). I see no difference. Some feel the picture is better in 720p.

Your TV should still present the picture in 1080p. Some have noticed a lower picture quality lately, but this is not the reason.
 

txdude

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Apr 2, 2004
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AFAIK 720p is supposedly better for fast motion than 1080i because it is progressive scan as opposed to interlaced like 1080i... Though 1080i does have more lines of resolution, so there is a trade off. But back to the point of the thread, my TV doesn't support 720p either so what we are watching on Cinema is 720p that has been up-converted by the STB to 1080i signal.
 

vurbano

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if you set your box to the top light bar 1080i it will convert all 720p signals to 1080i Then you dont have to worry about how your TV would convert it.

AS far as which is better, on a 1080i monitor it is very very obvious that 1080i is of superior resolution for still images and the numbers prove it. There are more pixels and more detail. The numbers also say that 720p has an advantage with color in motion. But tune into an HDnet hockey game(1080i) on D* then flip to espnhd(720p) hockey and I bet you will quickly say "ew" and flip back to HDnet. lmao.

Here are the numbers

________________Vert_______Horiz
------------------(Lines)-----(Pixels)
1920X1080i

B&W static______800________1638
B&W dynamic____400________1780
Color static______280________890
Color dynamic____200________481

1280X720p

B&W static______550________1139
B&W dynamic____420________1068
Color static_____(360)________641
Color dynamic___(320)_______(605)

Begin 720p rant:

Those with 720p monitors can never really see the increased resolution of 1080i. And those with 1080i monitors cannot see the "benefits" of 720p. (*cough*) But,T he advantage of 720p, (*hack*), IMHO is that it allows the providers to more easily reduce the bandwith and turn up compression without pixelating. 1080i is very unforgiving, if the bandwidth is turned down from 18mbps to 15 it will easily pixelate with transitions in the show. This is what is happening to my local PBS station who cuts 3 sd channels out of the bandwidth, I think they were down to 14Mbps. To fix it they went 720p!! (gee I wonder why?) Now the picture has no Wow factor at all. its smooth, but not much better than good SD. That I fear is the future of HD... HDlite:mad:

End 720p rant
 

Gr8Reb8

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Mar 8, 2004
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vurbano said:
AS far as which is better, on a 1080i monitor it is very very obvious that 1080i is of superior resolution for still images and the numbers prove it. There are more pixels and more detail. The numbers also say that 720p has an advantage with color in motion. But tune into an HDnet hockey game(1080i) on D* then flip to espnhd(720p) hockey and I bet you will quickly say "ew" and flip back to HDnet. lmao.
I think you are comparing a production from someone who "knows" HD (HDNet) and someone who usually "fakes" HD (ESPN). Not a fair comparison.

Why not take 5 minutes and get the facts.
http://alvyray.com/DigitalTV/Naming_Proposal.htm
This guy has the credentials needed in this discussion.

BTW, I have a two megapixel still camera and a four megapixel still camera. The two megapixel camera takes better pictures thant the cheapo four megapixel camera. Just having more data does not automatically mean that it will look better.
 

vurbano

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Gr8Reb8 said:
I think you are comparing a production from someone who "knows" HD (HDNet) and someone who usually "fakes" HD (ESPN). Not a fair comparison.

Amen to that. But it is 720p at espnhd for maybe 1 hour a day? But typically on a 720p set you see more vivid colors in someones clothes, but on the 1080i set you see the thread patterns in the clothes.

What 720p channel would you compare 1080i HDnet with? Or CBS NFL HD broadcasts with? (lets not compare the masters or the NCAA, not sure what that crap resolution was.. kinda scarey) SO I can see this superiority that 720p has? I do realize that comparisons on a 1080i native resolution monitor are unfair. You have to look at both on different sets. And converting signals also degrades the picture.
 

DarrellP

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My $.02: I have a projector that is native 720P, yet I can tell a difference between a 720P source and a 1080i source. For instance: CBS shows like CSI and Cold Case have an almost 3D look to them and are extremely detailed, yet Alias in 720P just looks good, it lacks the "POP" of CBS. I notice the same thing going between ESPNHD, CBS Sports or HDNET Sports. ESPNHD & ABCHD look nice but they lack the 3D look of CBS & HDNET.

One exception I have seen was The Lion King, this was probably the most beautiful HD presentation I have seen to date. The big BUT here is that it is animated so it's not a fair comparison.

I also use a 17" computer monitor connected via VGA to my Dish 6000 and I can see a much more detailed image on it in 1080i than I can see on my projector at 720P. My monitor is capable of full 1080i resolution. When I first got my 6000 I had the output set to 720P & one day I changed it to 1080i and I was like "WOW", I couldn't believe the difference in detail. If you think a 17" monitor is too small to distinguish fine detail, think again, the difference is amazing.

With the advent of 1080P devices hitting the market, the next few years should be very interesting. I wonder 5 years from now, will any program providers be capable of giving us a 1080P feed?
 

vurbano

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Thanks DarrellP,

Im glad some else sees this. Not putting 720p down or people with 720p displays. But full bandwidth 1080i on a 1080i monitor is like HD heaven. I dont buy the motion arguments that 720p uses. Look at the freakin broadcasts!!!! ESPNHD doesnt do it right? Then what are they doing? giving us fake 720p?

The only problems I have with 1080i are when the compression is turned up by a provider or the bandwidth turned down OTA. In those cases 720p has an advantage. And that is a scarey thought. With more networks, espn, fox etc going 720p we could end up with "HDlite", where they turn down compression until people stop screaming and then leave it there. My fear is no more "wow".

Thats what we all bought this stuff for! Im sure 1080p will put both of them to shame, but it sounds like something that will be Veryyyyyyyyy expensive. lol

I have to agree with the lion king, it was beautiful. But cartoon type movies are much more full of color than "real life" presentations. I dont think there is as much intricate detail. IF ever something would look better in 720p it would be these "types" of films. But we didnt see it on CBS did we?
 

Gr8Reb8

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When I tune to a CBS show like CSI and Cold Case, the picture looks good, it looks about the same as FOX at 480p. When I tune to an ABC show like Monday night football, or one of the recent movies shown on ABC, I go WOW WOW WOW, that is perfect HDTV!!!!!! The picture just shines. I definately prefer 720p.
 

DarrellP

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Gr8Reb8 said:
When I tune to a CBS show like CSI and Cold Case, the picture looks good, it looks about the same as FOX at 480p. When I tune to an ABC show like Monday night football, or one of the recent movies shown on ABC, I go WOW WOW WOW, that is perfect HDTV!!!!!! The picture just shines. I definately prefer 720p.
Do you have an EDTV? Is your local CBS HD? I can't believe CBS does not POP. CBS football is much more detailed than ABC.

(and my dad can beat up your dad, so there!) ;)
 

squicken

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I love 1080i v. 720p debates. I particularly enjoy the "720p is really just 1440i" statements. The links above notwithstanding, I beleive the expert consensus, at least from consumer product reveiwers such as CNET, that 1080i is more WOWing and POPable.
 

vurbano

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Gr8Reb8 said:
I know most are not looking at facts, however, here is another link:

http://www.atd.net/HDTV_faq.html
thats really the same material as a previous poster. And it says 720p uses less bandwidth. Thats why I believe many networks want to use it and providers like it. 1080i pixelates much faster. IF they all go 720p the providers will gradually turn up the compression dial as much as they can and you will no longer have HD.

MNF does approach the quality of CBS football. But do you think anything ESPN does is as sharp as HDNET?

frankly I think the 720p developers thought "if we can sell them on the motion crap and if we can get them to look away from the still images, we might be able to fool them. 480p is better than 480i right?" LMAO " just tellem that pixels dont matter"
 

DarrellP

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vurbano said:
480p is better than 480i right?" LMAO " just tellem that pixels dont matter"

:no ROTFLMAO :D You should see our local Fox 480p "Enhanced" Widescreen, it sucks. :mad: It looks OK as long as they show closeups but as soon as they show a wide field image like a football field, the image really falls apart and shows it's true self: CRAP. DVD's look better than OUR Fox WS, I've heard others claim it's better but I can only speak for ours. :rolleyes:
 

Gr8Reb8

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DarrellP said:
Do you have an EDTV? Is your local CBS HD? I can't believe CBS does not POP. CBS football is much more detailed than ABC.

(and my dad can beat up your dad, so there!) ;)
I have a 50" HD display (Panasonic PT-50LC13). The superbowl on CBS was good. MNF on ABC was better.

I always see the multitude of motion artifacts on the beginning of The Tonight Show with Jay Lenno, when the camera is panning all over the place. I also see lots of artifacts on HDNet Hockey when the camera pans quickly and a large portion of the audience is in clear view. When watching MNF on ABC, the picture is clearer and I do not notice artifacts.
 

Gr8Reb8

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DarrellP said:
:no ROTFLMAO :D You should see our local Fox 480p "Enhanced" Widescreen, it sucks. :mad: It looks OK as long as they show closeups but as soon as they show a wide field image like a football field, the image really falls apart and shows it's true self: CRAP. DVD's look better than OUR Fox WS, I've heard others claim it's better but I can only speak for ours. :rolleyes:
When I first saw a movie in 480p from my local Fox station, for a second, I thought they had changed to HD. The picture quality was almost identical to HD I see on CBS and NBC.
After watching more, I will agree that the CBS and NBC HD programs that are very static and well lit, like sitcoms, will look slightly (and I have to look closely) better than the 480p from Fox.
ESPN-HD ALWAYS looks bad to me. (yes, even the 720p stuff).
Movies, sitcoms and sports on ABC are always the clearest and best.
BTW, my quality signal meter for the OTA stations shows that I get the strongest/best signal from NBC, CBS is second and ABC is third. Go figure.
 

vurbano

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Hmmm maybe we should trust an article by the US government? No ill stick with the japanese on this one. SOmehow I have an urge to hold on to my wallet.

ABC MNF better than HDnet? Maybe if one is smoking crack.
 

Gr8Reb8

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vurbano said:
then watch HDnet the 1080i picture is far superior than 720p
Perhaps you need to upgrade to a newer display. Interlacing is old technology that was implemented due to limited processing power/bandwidth.
 

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