***Everyone read this***picture quality

[bobj2004]

I did say Pic quality on the local is at times bad.

I alway assumed it was due to weather as all my locals going to a local receiver point all come in via an Over the Air antenna. All Except for the one station that the local receiver is located it.

Direct TV does this also.

They all use Analog anntennas at the local receiver, then they ship the signal via 100% digitial fiber to the up link center. The only station that is 100% digital is the station that the local receive is at.

Not all stations across the country run 100% fiber to the Dish or Direct TV local receiver point.

This is why the weather can still make the picture look bad.

Sometimes its is real good. Most of the time is is bad (like they never tweak the antenna at the local recieve point).

 

[Mike Greer]

The title of this thread is: **************Everybody Read this!!**************.

Ok, then you have to know that there are those of us who are satisfied (entirely) when it comes to the picture quality with the 811 receiver. I'm not happy about the software problems, but I have absolutely no complaint with the picture. I have only the 811, upgraded from a 5000 connected to my 50HDX82 Toshiba. The picture is perfect. Not dark, and impressive both in SD and HD. I don't know if it's just the Toshiba as the largest other tvs I have are 21" (3 of them in other rooms) hooked up via a distribution amplifier. They have great pictures also. The Toshiba does have a line doubler.

So, you asked everyone to "read this". I did, I commented. I think there must be something wrong with either your installation or tv setup. I'm not an electronic engineer. I have DVI, component, and s-video connectors hooked up, and I'm happy (except for the damn delay in software updates).

Dave

Dave - Do you have a way to compare over-the-air network channels with Dish Network local channels? If you have an antenna and can flip back and forth you will see the problem. The Dish Network locals are way over-compressed so you loose much of the detail that is there in the original broadcast. It looks particularly bad when you look at the fine print in commercials or at the credits at the end of a show - mostly unreadable on Dish Network because of the over-compression.

If you can, give it a try and let us know what you think.

 

[Juan]

Thanks for the advice but I already canceled by service.

I must have hit a nerve - but just beacuse you don't care about the picture quality doesn't mean no one cares about picture quality. :haha

If it wasn't for freaks like me :shocked Dish Network and DirecTV would be cramming double or triple what they are now. I want satellite TV and can hardly stand going to cable but I won't pay big bucks for marketing hype - I'll leave that to those like you who don't mind paying for crap service aka '100 % Digital Quality'.

then why are you on this forum?

 

[Mike Greer]

then why are you on this forum?

I am on this forum because I hate cable and want to use satellite. Simple as that. I hate cable with a passion but I am being forced to go with the lessor of two evils. It's not like I would choose cable if I wasn't being pushed that way because Dish Network and DirecTV believe picture quality is not important. Hmm.. I had to read that last sentence twice - I can't believe I am saying that... I care more about HDTV than SD channels and I can get more of them at better quality than from either Dish Network or DirecTV. I am hoping this is temporary but if no one complains it will become permanent as they kill HDTV just like they have killed SD.

 

[DaveO]

Dave - Do you have a way to compare over-the-air network channels with Dish Network local channels? If you have an antenna and can flip back and forth you will see the problem. The Dish Network locals are way over-compressed so you loose much of the detail that is there in the original broadcast. It looks particularly bad when you look at the fine print in commercials or at the credits at the end of a show - mostly unreadable on Dish Network because of the over-compression.

If you can, give it a try and let us know what you think.

Ok, now I think I'm beginning to understand where you are coming from.

You're talking *only* about locals, right? It seems that everyone else that also complained was also complaining about locals.

Unfortunately, I don't qualify for locals, only East/West nets and those are fine.

If Directv satellite 7S ever makes it to orbit, then I will have D* locals in the Springfield/Holyoke area. Dish does not have any on hand or projected for this area of Mass.

I do have *one* OTA digital channel that I can receive, and that's with a rooftop 155" double boom deep fringe, pre-amped UHF/VHF antenna.

When I can get a 70% or better signal I can lock it in fine and the picture is crystal clear. But I have nothing to compare it to with E*.

For instance: Right now I'm watching an old tv series on channel 106 Tvland. As old as the "All in the Family" series is, it is as clear as a movie.

What about your channels other than locals??

Also, the only time I have ever seen "artifacts" as I understand them is during a heavy rain storm.

Dave

P.S. I have no stock in E*, I'm just satisfied.

P.P.S. I have always had great luck talking to both E* customer service, or tech service. I think it has a lot to do with the way you approach them. I guess it's because I've had a life-time of escorting drunks and problem people out of places, and treating them as human (as long as they treat you the same). Consider the number of calls they must get a shift, and the way the callers present themselves to them, and maybe you can understand why it pays to be decent to them.

Dave

 

[WeeJavaDude]

PQ is dependent on so many things one of witch is Compression from the source. others include cabeling, Quality of TV, Calibration, and quality of power source. Add up the subjectivity of the viewer and you have a formula that would on produce non reliable and widely differing opinions. Having stated the obvious.. I am happy with my PQ with Dish. At first I was not, but after calibrating and using a power conditionar my PQ greatly improved...

 

[bcshields]

No - the problem is the number of local channels they have added. They don't have room for them all but need to have them so they can compete with cable companies. The more they add the worse they look. You can't get something for nothing.

<soapbox>
I was responding to the thread, maybe possibly solving Iceman's issue.... not arguing your point. He said he had troubles with PQ with a smaller 27" and a larger HD TV... you shouldn't be able to see "compression PQ issues" with a medium size SD TV. Hense my point, maybe this guy has some corrosion in his lines, maybe he's running RG59.. something other than your satellite bandwidth theory since it seems that many many many other people do not have this problem. Just a disgruntled ex-Dish user who seems to be too stubborn to check his TV settings.. and Iceman who might actually be seeking some help...
</soap box>

 

[Mike Greer]

<soapbox>
I was responding to the thread, maybe possibly solving Iceman's issue.... not arguing your point. He said he had troubles with PQ with a smaller 27" and a larger HD TV... you shouldn't be able to see "compression PQ issues" with a medium size SD TV. Hense my point, maybe this guy has some corrosion in his lines, maybe he's running RG59.. something other than your satellite bandwidth theory since it seems that many many many other people do not have this problem. Just a disgruntled ex-Dish user who seems to be too stubborn to check his TV settings.. and Iceman who might actually be seeking some help...
</soap box>

Ok I am stubborn and I guess you could call me a disgruntled ex-dish user but even if I was the biggest stock holder in Comcast it wouldn’t change the facts…

Fact 1 – Using RG59, corrosion, and cable runs longer than spec will only cause problems like switch errors, picture drop-outs, and the ‘Acquiring Satellite Signal’ messages – It will NOT degrade the picture. If you get a picture at all your TV is receiving the picture quality Dish Network is sending; or I should say NOT sending. Cable problems between your Satellite receiver and your display can cause problems but those are not kind of picture quality problems this thread is addressing.

Fact 2 – This thread is about what Dish is doing to their picture quality but they are not alone – DirecTV is doing the same thing.

Fact 3 – No amount of tweaking your display, line surge protectors, line conditioners, fancy video cables or $1000 power cords can correct what over-compressing of an MPEG stream does to picture quality.

Fact 4 – All of Dish Networks customers are getting the same over-compressed video as the next guy.

Fact 5 – Most Dish Network customers don’t complain about picture quality not because Dish has good picture quality but because it is not important to them. Believe it or not some people don’t have a problem with Black & White 14” TV quality.

Fact 6 – Dish will not make any attempt to improve as long as Fact #5 remains fact. They will continue to increase the compression until significant numbers of people complain.

Fact 7 – If anyone anywhere can compare a decent over-the-air TV station side-by-side with what Dish Network calls ‘100% Digital Clarity’ and HONESTLY not see the difference on any TV decent display they either need classes or they are just brain dead.

Fact 8 – I want to be a Dish Network customer, cable sucks, they just have to have something I’m willing to pay for and over-compressed crap is not something I want to watch. I am interested in their HDTV; they just don’t have an HDTV receiver that I can buy. Where are those 811s and 921s? For the moment they have not yet, at least to my knowledge, screwed up their HDTV by re-over-compressing it… They just need a little more time.

 

[kwtrading]

This is definately a local channel problem and it ABSOLUTELY is a legitimate argument. It has nothing to do with your television, receiver or how good your satellite signal strength is. It is the resolution Dish decides to feed specific local channels at (not all markets I'm sure). This is why some people experience it and some people don't. I'd guess it is related to local channels on Dish 500. I'd bet people that need a second dish or superdish probably dont have their locals compressed so heavily because of available space on the other satellites. This is just a guess but I bet in many markets Dish overcompresses its locals to fit on Dish500 just for the pure marketing need to have a simpler install with a Dish500. I live in Connecticut and we just got our locals 2 months ago. Funny how we got them just 6 weeks before a launch with SBC? Do you think SBC wants to deal with second dishes or superdishes? No way. Just get them offered at the expense of picture quality.

Our picture quality on locals at times is nothing short of abmissmal and putrid. The compression has an especially hard time handling large areas of one color. For example, all the green on a football field or when a screen cuts to black to go to commercial. You see huge splotches where compression software must say the picture can get away with using just one or two colors for the whole thing instead of breaking it down to the pixel level. Can you imaging having your screen cut to black and see big gray splotches all over your screen? You do with this. Our SuperBowl resolution was horrendous and embarassing. Thank goodness I didn't have company over to watch it. When you are watching a sitcom or something, you can see the background morphing in and out of focus as it struggles to keep it at lower quality but watchable. I'm not making this stuff up. I'm a Dish dealer and I know what I'm looking at.

I will say that all the other channels are perfectly acceptable in my opinion. These are the same ones that we are ALL looking at, not just specific local markets.

 

[orcatek]

Fact 7 – If anyone anywhere can compare a decent over-the-air TV station side-by-side with what Dish Network calls ‘100% Digital Clarity’ and HONESTLY not see the difference on any TV decent display they either need classes or they are just brain dead.

Mike - Fact 7 - Digital will always be of lower quality than analog period. No amount of bandwidth can save it. Digital does not use a loss less compression, so it has to be of lower quality by definition. Even HD is worse than film - just the facts - the color range just isn't available, there are not enough pixels to capture a film image.

I have done side by side compares. My set will allow me to do them at view DBS and OTA at the same time. I get a darn good DBS picture, especially when compared to local analog or cable.

It sounds like in some other markets this is not the same. I can understand your frustration, but not everyone is having the same problem.

 

[reedl]

I have a 921 (in addition to other E* receivers). I was watching the local CBS affialiate here in Boston during Prime Time hours.

There are three ways I can watch the local channels (via OTA Analog, Via OTA Digital, and Via E*). The interesting thing is that during commercials, all of the versions look like garbage. It seems that the local station is using some ad inseration system that provides pretty bad quality. The text on the car ads are almost unreadable. The CBS programs look very good of course via OTA Digital OTA Analog they also look pretty good. Via E* it is not too bad.

The first thing I always ask people complaining about PQ is on what channels are they having problems. The locals are usually the worst of all the channels on E* and D*. This is for multiple reasons, not the least of which is that the supply chain for these channels is much more complicated than for a satellite delivered channel (like MTV or Nick or CNN). The typical basic channel (like MTV Nick Cnn or Foxnews), is a second generation of the channel on E* or D*. Local channels are typically 4th or 5th generation.
1) The network broadcasts it
2) The Local station receives it, transmits it to their tower via some link.
3) The tower broadcasts it
4) The E* OTA receiver receives it, encodes it and uplinks it via satellite or fiber link.
5) E* Receives it in Cheyene.
6) E* Transmits it to the customer.

Now even if that entire signal chain is digital, there has to be re-compression before it goes into the E* uplink simply because of bandwidth restrictions, etc.

Mike, I did not find any mention in your posts which channels you are complaining about.

Reedl

 

[bubba04]

I have to agree with Mke Greer. PQ is just not important to the general public. And to be honest, it wasn't important to me until I dropped a few G's on a new TV. I hooked Comcast Cable to my new set with the anticipation of seeing a better/clearer picture. But what I got was worse than I had with my old set. This is the problem facing a lot of us who make the leap into the digital/HDTV television world. We have been duped for many years. Good PQ was never promised, so it never had to be delivered. Now, with more and more people getting into the home theater concept, Cable and Satellite companies are really not ready to handle things.

Even if Dish gave me the best PQ available anywhere, I know that I would want more. If things can be better, I WANT them to be better. The LAST thing I would do is say is how happy I am with mediocre video quality. If I did that, I would know things would not improve.
Bubba04

 

[spanky]

My 2 cents, p.q. on my television using my 811 is very dark(yes I have tried adjusting the brightness) in sd,hd and locals using the 811. When not using the 811, and using my 5000 the sd channels are more clear in background scenes, and using ota the local hd channels are spectacular. This leads me to believe that my 811 has some problems. If any one has no problems with p.q. you may send your 811 to me and I will be able to verify above stated quirks.

 

[MikeD-C05]

PQ is dependent on so many things one of witch is Compression from the source. others include cabeling, Quality of TV, Calibration, and quality of power source. Add up the subjectivity of the viewer and you have a formula that would on produce non reliable and widely differing opinions. Having stated the obvious.. I am happy with my PQ with Dish. At first I was not, but after calibrating and using a power conditionar my PQ greatly improved...

Please tell me what is a power conditionar? I would love to know and I am sure the rest of us would too.

 

[Kevinw]

The one product from Monster that is legit.
http://www.monstercable.com/power/

 

[WLong]

The one product from Monster that is legit.
http://www.monstercable.com/power/

Whats wrong with Monster Speaker Wire? Their wire is pretty well made.

 

[hancox]

The one product from Monster that is legit.
http://www.monstercable.com/power/

Kev - really? I always put Monster somewhere above snake oil, mostly because of their horrendous overcharging for digital cables (DVI, Optical Audio, etc etc). I'd be swayed on this product from someone whom I trust (he of the VP of Cold Beer from HDTVoice...)

 

[ROLLTIDE]

so where talking about this

http://www.monstercable.com/power/productPagePower.asp?pin=1020

 

[Kevinw]

The real issue for Monster products is price. The quality is not all bad. They have a marketing department that earns its keep. In comparison to AR or Radio Shack, both adequate moderate priced products, Monster is of equal build. Price wise just not worth it.
I have not tried the conditioner but I have heard good things from people who use it. Particullarly in homes with older wiring.

 

[hancox]

The real issue for Monster products is price. The quality is not all bad. They have a marketing department that earns its keep. In comparison to AR or Radio Shack, both adequate moderate priced products, Monster is of equal build. Price wise just not worth it.
I have not tried the conditioner but I have heard good things from people who use it. Particullarly in homes with older wiring.

heh - my house is from the 20's - me thinks this might not be a bad investment