I received my official letter today.

[Dah-Henny]

I just got in from work and had a letter from Dominion. They have officially notified me that their DBS service WILL end at the end of Q1. I'll post the letter in a bit. We all new it already, of course.

 

[RedSavina]

I just got in from work and had a letter from Dominion. They have officially notified me that their DBS service WILL end at the end of Q1. I'll post the letter in a bit. We all new it already, of course.

After reading the letter, it is apparent that a lot of thought and effort went into the wording. I appreciate that they are finally getting the word out and am slightly surprised at the degree of candor.

What they need to do next is address how they plan to recognize the lifetime subscribers who have been with them since the beginning. It would be a shame if they alienated the long-term supporters. I don't expect a direct transfer of the lifetime subscription, but do feel firmly that something must be done in terms of programming and/or equipment.

The optimist in me is encouraged by this letter. The cynic finds lots to infer when reading between the lines...

 

[JeffH]

What they need to do next is address how they plan to recognize the lifetime subscribers who have been with them since the beginning. It would be a shame if they alienated the long-term supporters.

Don't you mean one time supporters?

 

[catkoko]

Not unexpected but very disappointing at best. I say WAIT

I read your copy as I have not received mine yet. thanks for posting it.

I would encourage anyone who does receive it and feels wronged to call CS as well as write a final letter to sky angel detailing your complaints and reasons for not continuing with sky angel. Next I would contact dish and ask for Christian channels to be added to the family package

My complaints are pretty much the same ones that have already been aired. What they have never addressed is the fact that they did NOT LAUNCH the promised NEW SATELLITE in 2002! If they had all this would have been avoided. Instead in 2006 they started looking into it?!!!! too little, too late

they add insult to injury by saying other alternatives would have required NEW SATELLITE EQUIPMENT and INSTALLATION cost of $350. That alternative would have been cheaper for most, if not all of us. Plus many if not all are capable of installation! Now anyone who wants IPTV has to buy new equipment for each TV, pay subscription for each TV and if lifetime now pay monthly fees. Lifetime members would have been able to purchase new equipment but continue their lifetime membership.

They say you don't 'NEED" a computer, true BUT you do need INTERNET SERVICE! How many people have internet service without a computer........ Once again a misleading statement.

We can get a "free" box for ONE TV IF we subscribe for 18 months and give them authorization to auto debit our bank account. i do NOT think so!!! SKY ANGEL kept debiting Canadian accounts after they shut down IPTV!!!! think about that before you sign on the dotted line

Rob talks about his fathers vision and I truly believe he would not have tossed out the lifetime members this way. IPTV will never reach the people his dad was trying to reach! he says he is preserving is fathers vision. I say to Rob, you have DESTROYED your fathers vision and the credibility of HIS company.

if they are going to shut us off so be it. If that letter is the best they have to offer I don't expect many lifers will follow them.

I highly advise waiting as I believe DISH may be more willing to work with us than sky angel has been. they can not do much until sky angel is officially off the air via DBS. So do NOT rush out and sign up for sky angel IPTV. whats the worse that can happen, no TV? We can get caught up on our reading

when you do make a decision, DISH, DIRECT TV, glorystar etc, write and let all your favorite channels know where you will be watching

 

[Dah-Henny]

The optimist in me is encouraged by this letter. The cynic finds lots to infer when reading between the lines

Very well said.

Way back when, when I paid my lifetime fee, I was told that the fee went into a trust fund, called "Dominion Foundation", I think. It was my understanding that the fund would be there indefinitely and generate a perpetual stream of dividends. I'm not too sure how it all was supposed to work, but SA sure sold me on the idea.

 

[RedSavina]

Don't you mean one time supporters?

If you prefer.

There are those who look at it purely as a cost-for-service situation. Those that do so divide their cost by the number of months of service received to determine the value of their lifetime subscription. (I, too, have done this math.)

Instead of using only the cost-for-service approach, I also approached this as an investment. I was investing in a company that I thought would be effective in spreading the Gospel. The return on that investment would not necessarily be measured by the service I received, but by the longevity of the company in performing this ministry. As such, my support went beyond a one-time payment: I spoke well of the service and even had a few friends subscribe as a result. While it was not a topic of daily prayer, SkyAngel also received support from me in the form of prayer.

If IPTV is the best means to continue spreading the Gospel, then great. I'm not convinced, though. Regardless, I am dissatisfied with the way this has been handled and have voiced my concerns elsewhere.

My desire to see some acknowledgment for lifetime subscribers is wishful thinking that the company would begin treating customers better and give long-time customers a reason to continue advocating the service. It is NOT an indignant statement that they owe me since I have been a lifetime customer for over 10 years.

 

[RedSavina]

I hope I don't regret this...

Next I would contact dish and ask for Christian channels to be added to the family package

I'm confused. Didn't you say that if NeuLion was involved with porn that you would dump SA? The same logic applies to Dish Network. I'm all for a Christian programming package from Dish Network, but am surprised that you rail against SA while seeming to be supportive of DN.

when you do make a decision, DISH, DIRECT TV, glorystar etc, write and let all your favorite channels know where you will be watching

I couldn't agree more! And this might just be the first time I have agreed with you at all.

 

[RedSavina]

You know, I've pondered this a lot as I've responded to other comments above. And I think I may have stumbled across something.

At first catkoko's statement about Rob destroying his father's vision got my hackles up. After further consideration I think I agree a little - but maybe not in the way some think.

The original vision was to spread the Gospel via satellite. The idea being that satellite reaches a vast number of people who could be exposed to God's message. Providing wholesome and entertaining programming to subscribers would seem a secondary goal (and necessary for the company to be viable).

What I see in this new vision is to provide wholesome and entertaining programming - along with other programming choices - to subscribers. In doing so, hopefully God's message is reinforced with the viewers; it might even be spread via word of mouth.

Very similar visions, but with a subtle shift in priorities if you ask me!

So that makes two points in which I agree somewhat with catkoko. Who would have thunk it?

 

[catkoko]

Glad we can meet somewhere in the middle !

As I see it Bob was trying to bring the gospel and TV to those in rural, often poor areas who otherwise had none. The original vision was an angel, descending and spreading to the "corners" of the earth or something along those lines. If the poor could get TV, even "Christian" They would have considered it.

Rob is bringing something that Bob never envisioned. I don't think any of us could have conceived of it back then.

IPTV is more suited to the city dwelling, upper middle class. I say that not to offend anyone by my terms. Those in rural areas often don't have internet, never mind high speed or the high incomes needed to pay for it if it should be available. "City" people are more likely to have access to high speed as well as higher incomes. Of course you have inner city areas where people don't even have phones, never mind internet service. Do you realize that in certain neighborhoods in NYC pull fireboxes and pay phones must be made available to reach EMS< FDNY etc. There was an uproar a few years back when they tried to remove them. People there didn't own phones!! Many of us take technology for granted. IN another year those with analog tvs won't have any tv either, due to federal broadcasting changes. Bob had a better chance of reaching those poor people than the new sky angel ever will.

Christianity is turning into a club for the rich. When you can turn on tv and see a bible offered for $150 there is a problem. Christian books, music and even tv should be available to all who want to hear the truth. Not priced higher than more "worldly" items.

I said it before these problems with Sky Angel are causing division among the saints, not saving the lost. I see no fruit coming forth from that. I remember bob on tv, sayng how they had no $, didn't charge broadcasters but the Lord would help keep him on the air.

I don't know how much rob made by selling the licenses but he sold us out for $$ as far as I am concerned. If he had at least attempted to keep dbs going for the lifetimers until the satellite was defunct I think we all would have applauded the effort. Even despite the fact they didn't launch in 2002. Even if he had made the offer to switch lifetimers to IPTV if they purchased equipment I don't think many would have spoken against him. Many would not have followed due to internet or equipment issues but at least he could have tried.

I am not against IPTV. What I am against is the way we have been treated and the lack of solid information coming from sky angel. A letter in january saying sorry, bye , hope you join us is too little too late.

I don't recall discussing Neulion or "dumping" sky angel. I think the only this I said was that if it turned out Neulion was also involved in porn like shiftv it might be the end of sky angel. I wouldn't have dumped sky angel as it was already paid for via lifetime. Dumping it wouldn't help. I did discuss shif tv a while back though. I think sky angel made the right decision IF that was truly their reason. however they went about it the wrong way eg no notice to subs, no explanation and continued billing besides.

I am not familiar with dish and their "porn" other then being told it is not the same category as the smutt shift tv was broadcasting. I have only looked into the family package.

Of course anyone considering DISH should look further into what dish broadcasts, you brought up a good point

a house divided agianst itself can not stand.........

 

[Scroll]

Like I said in the other thread the only fair thing for them to do is just transfer the lifetime over to the IPTV Faith package even if you have to buy the box. How hard can that be? How much expense can there be??

Yet they are offering the $200 box free for an 18 month commitment. But don't be too worried about the problem of adding a 2nd or 3rd box because if they are accurate about your bandwidth requirements most people will be lucky to just have 1 box work properly.

I am also concerned about the failure of IPTV Canada and the real likelyhood of history repeating itself.

I don't know what the $350 solution would have involved but for $200 plus any installation cost you can get a FTA setup now, so it appears like many are choosing to spend that amount anyway.

However it is becoming abundantly clear that the future of Dominion seems more bleak today because it will now totally depend on a small segment of Christians with little hope of a dramatic increase in subscriptions due to cost & technical concerns. They would likely be better off in the end financially putting their product out there for free somehow and hope the Christian community would rally to support it by donations, which they probably hold little hope of happening since they were hoping that's what would happen with the current DBS method.

You know the irony here is that I love my Tivos. Can't use 'em for IPTV or for GloryStar. And if I sever with DBS all they'll be good for is OTA broadcasts, which SA was supposed to be an alternative to. And any more even just the daily news is so full of celebrity mumbo jumbo and claims of global warming and other politically correct indoctrination that I'm not even sure I want to record that anymore.

 

[jegrant]

Well - I appreciate seeing this letter. I'm glad it was posted. I'm glad "Dominion" sent it out. I find it interesting that they now choose to use the brand name of Dominion when communicating directly with customers, only to deliver bad news. The letter certainly attempts to make it clear (for legal reasons, I would assume) that the new "Sky Angel IPTV" is claimed to be an entirely different operation, rather than a continuation of the Dominion Sky Angel DBS platform.

I really appreciate the frank explanation of the situation. Had this information merely been posted as an open letter to subscribers on the SA* website, roughly six months ago, this forum could have avoided much of the speculation, and what was at times rather heated commentary that has filled this little section of SatelliteGuys.US.

Given the situation with Dish, however, and the apparent willingness of SA* to use legal remedies when necessary, it seems odd that SA* would not have attempted to appeal to the FCC to force E* into arbitration, rather than allowing E* to essentially price SA* out of the satellite business. It seems to me that this could certainly be perceived as behavior on the part of E* that maintains a oligopoly.

The thing that really bothers me about this, as well, is that it's obvious to anyone that SA* is very little threat to either E* or D* in the consumer satellite business, as they simply refuse to offer a great deal of the secular programming that many homes would like to buy. The only thing SA* directly competes with is the low-priced Family packages offered by other providers. And, its continued existence showed that there was room for a smaller DBS provider. I guess there's no room anymore.

 

[RedSavina]

You know the irony here is that I love my Tivos. Can't use 'em for IPTV or for GloryStar. And if I sever with DBS all they'll be good for is OTA broadcasts, which SA was supposed to be an alternative to. And any more even just the daily news is so full of celebrity mumbo jumbo and claims of global warming and other politically correct indoctrination that I'm not even sure I want to record that anymore.

I know it's not a TIVO, let alone the TIVO you already own, but you can get an FTA receiver with DVR capabilities. The main issue is the program guide.

I know the folks over and SatelliteAV (dba Glorystar) are working on the electronic program guide issue. The also offer a DVR receiver. Hopefully they will be able to offer a DVR receiver with EPG support for the Glorystar service in the near future.

 

[lumpkin666]

catkoko, I think it's interesting that you bash SkyAngel for using IPTV that is not widely available everywhere, when the similar arguments could have been said way back when Bob was proposing that everyone could have their own satellite dish.. the technology was not as widespread as it is now... just like Highspeed internet will be in another 5-10 years. You're missing the boat here on this issue..internet broadcast can already reach billions more people around the world than a single satellite hanging over the USA can... and highspeed internet is reaching everywhere very quickly due to community projects/etc bringing highspeed into a variety of previously unreachable areas.. it will be there, don't doubt that.

 

[Dah-Henny]

The bottom line is VISION. Someone once said, "If the dream is big enough, the facts don't matter", meaning that Johnson Sr.'s vision was so strong, that he would have found a way to build that satellite. WHY?...because he also utilized his faith.

After reading the letter, it became obvious to me that Jr. doesn't really carry the vision of his father. Instead, he hires all of the so called experts to come in and tell him that "it can't be done".

As I see it Bob was trying to bring the gospel and TV to those in rural, often poor areas who otherwise had none. The original vision was an angel, descending and spreading to the "corners" of the earth or something along those lines. If the poor could get TV, even "Christian" They would have considered it.

That undoubtidly is the worst explanation/analogy that I've heard thus far. Statistically speaking, poorer peoples have a greater spirituality than people with means. The rich, or well off, are some of the most difficult people to reach with the gospel.

Bob's mission, among other things, was to give Christians an alternative to secular TV.

 

[Scroll]

I know it's not a TIVO, let alone the TIVO you already own, but you can get an FTA receiver with DVR capabilities. The main issue is the program guide.

I know the folks over and SatelliteAV (dba Glorystar) are working on the electronic program guide issue. The also offer a DVR receiver. Hopefully they will be able to offer a DVR receiver with EPG support for the Glorystar service in the near future.

Yes, I had read about some of those possibilities. There's also a post in the Tivo Community forum that offers a glimmer of hope that IPTV may be somewhat Tivo supported on S1/ S2 stbs.

Given the situation with Dish, however, and the apparent willingness of SA* to use legal remedies when necessary, it seems odd that SA* would not have attempted to appeal to the FCC to force E* into arbitration, rather than allowing E* to essentially price SA* out of the satellite business. It seems to me that this could certainly be perceived as behavior on the part of E* that maintains a oligopoly.

As I read that paragraph it sounded more like the bigger issue was with new SA ONLY subscribers getting a 1st time box. I'm not certain how much the rent on the bird played a factor but from the sounds of it the assumption was that people wouldn't pay $350 which is apparently the unsubsidized cost of a new box. But perhaps there was a bit more to it that we lowly subscribers were not privy to?


I think the FCC appeal might have been one way to go. A loosly similar argument worked for MCI to open up 3rd party long distance, after all. Plus there are other arguments that could be made. But I figure they saw the legal battle as too costly, which is why they decided it was easier to switch than fight. Still, it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth for Echostar. They may have every legal right to discourage SA but as a consumer I also have every legal right to my opinion - and to share that opinion - that they should have been more accomodating and that their choices caused me a financial hardship as a customer.

But as others have said Dominion has known about this for a long time and being silent until the last possible moment is troubling to me. We don't even have a firm cutoff date, only that by March 31 for certain service will be gone.


Funny that a Dish CSR hinted to me months ago as much as has now been revealed but I thought the rep was misinformed about the IPTV service. We all know level 1 CSRs are "usually" the last to know anything. Remember when Dish started charging an access fee if you didn't suscribe to other package programming? Guess that was the writing on the wall. I sent an email to SA at that time and received no response.

But if Dish knew about it and could talk about it why wouldn't Dominion? Was it that they wanted every last possible subscription fee or an 11th hour attempt to rescue the DBS option? We may never know!

 

[jashobeam]

I contacted Dish. As SA subscribers we will not be eligible for the deep discounts of Dish even though we never received Dish programming. All of us have a Dish customer number. The only way out is if your spouse did not have their name and Social Security number added to the SA account. I think both our names were on it. I was told the start up costs to "upgrade" and get Dish were around $300. We are most likely going with DirecTV now. It seems they have added family friendly channels to their 250 package.

 

[catkoko]

May 2006!!!

if you read their lovely little, enclosed brochure (page 6)this has been planned since MAY 2006! 1 1/2 YEARS

has anyone purchased a lifetime or 10 year during this time period?

the "special offer " free box, 18 month committment, is the same offered to anyone, nothing special for lifetime members

If I had wanted to make a "donation" I would have done so. I paid for a LIFETIME membership although sky angel seems to want to consider my $$$ a gift

For what its worth the FCC says to file a complaint with the FTC. At this poiint it won't change the outcome.

I guess what each now has to decide is do you walk or fight them?

 

[jegrant]

As I read that paragraph it sounded more like the bigger issue was with new SA ONLY subscribers getting a 1st time box. I'm not certain how much the rent on the bird played a factor but from the sounds of it the assumption was that people wouldn't pay $350 which is apparently the unsubsidized cost of a new box. But perhaps there was a bit more to it that we lowly subscribers were not privy to?

Funny that a Dish CSR hinted to me months ago as much as has now been revealed but I thought the rep was misinformed about the IPTV service. We all know level 1 CSRs are "usually" the last to know anything. Remember when Dish started charging an access fee if you didn't suscribe to other package programming? Guess that was the writing on the wall. I sent an email to SA at that time and received no response.

But if Dish knew about it and could talk about it why wouldn't Dominion? Was it that they wanted every last possible subscription fee or an 11th hour attempt to rescue the DBS option? We may never know!

From my reading of the Dominion letter above, it seems that the $350-400 did indeed refer to the cost of an unsubsidized E* receiver that new SA* customers would be required to purchase. And therefore, since SA* customers were previously allowed to purchase subsidized receivers, this represents a price increase on the part of E* in my opinion. Admittedly, no one knows how many SA* subs there are, but how many subsidized receivers could SA* customers realistically have purchased, and how many of them actually bought no DISH programming at all?

To me, I think SA* actually helped market DISH in some ways, because those who were interested in getting a satellite dish for SA*, who might not have otherwise considered a dish at all, were then much more open to buying a secular package from DISH, as it was completely integrated on the same satellite receiver and everything.

I know at least one DISH customer who is an SA* lifetimer, and because DISH had SA*, he also dumped cable TV and now buys the DISH Everything Pack, and has for years. Had DirecTV been the host to SA*, he might well have gone with DirectTV.

 

[catkoko]

You can go into any radio shack as well as a few others as well and buy a dish receiver for under $100! they did say $350 was for receiver and installation. People are taking sky angel at their word, unfortunately we can not do so any more.

If someone already has a dish receiver and an 18" dish I bleive all they need is a 20" dish 500 dish to receive programming via dish.

 

[finsrn]

The Real Problem Was...

The real problem I see with Sky Angel is that there aren't enough Christian people willing to pay a premium for Christian content. It simply comes down to convictions. Seems to be a problem with the church today in general. The general consensus was something like this...sure, Sky Angel sounds good, but don't expect me to give up my other 200 secular channels for it and be good and well sure that I'm not going to pay a dollar MORE for it. Perhaps this is what Mr. Johnson failed to anticipate. When it comes down to it, too many people are content to keep paying their monthly cable tithe no matter what or whom it supports.

Sky Angel was great for my family and I considered the decision to subscribe one of the best I have made. I live in a rural area and there is no way I can get the bandwidth to make the IPTV work. Not sure what I'm going to do now...