need help finding far western sats

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quasimodem

SatelliteGuys Family
Original poster
Jun 30, 2009
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Marlow, New Hampshire
I'm kind of new at this. I've been able to find the ku satellites from about 60w. to 101w. After that I can't seem to find anything.
I have a 36"x39" dish with a sg6000 motor and an Invacom QPH-031 lnb.
What puzzles me is I have a 20" dish about a foot lower that gets 119 and 110...Dishnetwork. But when I switch to the circular side of the Invacom I cannot find 119 with the Hotdish...nor can I find the Satmex sats, 123w., 127w. nor 129w.
I've tried using USALS with a strong transponder and fine tuning by moving east or west a bit, but don't find any signal quality.
I've tried moving the dish all the way west and bumping it east, one click at a time but still don't find any signal quality.
I even created a "user-satellite" and entered all the "strong transponders" for all the sats from around 100 to 129w. in the antenna setup. I then, very patiently, bump the dish a little bit at a time and check each transponder....but still haven't had any luck.
AT first I thought I just needed to lift the dish, as I'm south of a 1600' hillside (I'm at 1300'). But there's the issue of the 20" dish getting 119 just fine.
Any suggestions or ideas will be greatly appreciated.

...the picture is the Hotdish at about 123w. and the 20" dish at 110/119.
 

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It sounds to me like you are just not quite tracking the arc yet.

Have you tried USALS moving to your true south sat (72W?) and then slighly moving your dish up/down and right/left with your hands, while watching the signal quality at the same time to see if you notice any improvements with any of those movements? Of course you would have your receiver set to a strong tp for whatever sat you were peaking on.

When you peak your signal @ 72W, then do the same at 101W. Then move to 60W and see what you have. Remember, small movements, and it's best to have your tv and receiver on the roof so you get real-time feedback.

That might give you a clue of what alignment adjustments you need to make if you are off the arc.

If you are having a motor issue I don't know what to tell you, but I would try working on your alignment first.

And from your description it doesn't sound like you are having line-of-sight issues if the 20" dish is lower but it has no trouble "seeing" 119W.
 
thanks phlatwound,
I brought a small tv and my receiver up on the roof a few weeks ago...
and did just what you are suggesting.
My efforts improved my signal quality greatly, and rescanning yeilded more channels and better quality on all satellites. All the other satellites that I'm tracking come in just fine.
I know my mast is dead on plumb 360 degrees.
It's a mystery....
 
Can you try.....
Drive the Dish to your True South Sat using USALS
Increase Motor Lat 2 degrees
Adjust Dish Elevation to Peak Signal
Adjust Azimuth if necessary
Try Western Sats
 
I can't help but notice the lnb support arm is at 40 deg. I have never seen that before , it seems to me that would greatly effect your scew ( i could be wrong ) I am about 500 miles west of you and all of my dish support arms are dead center at the bottom . I have say it makes sense to me the more you move the dish the further off the belt you go .Just my observation . Correct me if i'm wrong ;}
 
Can you try.....
Drive the Dish to your True South Sat using USALS
Increase Motor Lat 2 degrees
Adjust Dish Elevation to Peak Signal
Adjust Azimuth if necessary
Try Western Sats

quasi, Lak has made a good observation above. I totally overlooked that point, I'm so used to just setting my motor Latitude to 37 (my latitude), and forgetting it.

I have 3 different motors in use (DG-380, HH-90 and SG 2100) and all are very accurate in regards to their latitude scale on the motor bracket.

Another possibility, along these same lines, is make sure you are using the "Latitude" scale on your motor, not the "Elevation" scale (if it has one so marked). I think if that was the case you would be way off though, so I doubt if that is what's going on.

You also want to make sure your motor bracket is perfectly plumb when tightened, as well as your pole.
 
I noticed that too Panhandler, I've not seen any of my dishes looking that cross-eyed no matter how far east/west I drive them. He's in NH, so I imagine you could get a look angle like that pointed at 129 or something west, but I'd be curious to know if he had his dish aligned with south when he put it on the motor shaft.
 
I noticed that too Panhandler, I've not seen any of my dishes looking that cross-eyed no matter how far east/west I drive them. He's in NH, so I imagine you could get a look angle like that pointed at 129 or something west,
I'm in northern NY state and my dish is skewed like that when pointed at 123 - 129. I think the angle of the picture makes it look worse than it is. Note that the pizza dish at 119 is skewed nearly as much.

Quasi, take a look at the sun outage calculator thread to get a true line of sight on the sats in question.
 
thanks all,
my mast is perfectly plumb from every angle...
I appreciate the insights, but if I were as far off as you suggest why would I be tracking from 60 to 100 just fine and then lose everything after that?
I have line of sight to the far western sats, the fact that I can hit 119 with the "pzza dish" is testament to this.
I'm certain I've optimised my signal, and that this dish needs no further alignment.
could there be something wrong with my motor? I did notice a bit of play in it, but assumed this is normal.
 
My SG6000 motor Lat Scale is set 4 degrees Higher from recommended.

If you have some play, you should still be ale to use DiSEqC 1.2 commands to drive the Dish and hit the Sats.
 
I'm certain I've optimised my signal, and that this dish needs no further alignment.
.

? that statment
ones first motor set up is pretty hard look at how many first motor set up threads are on this site lol. i have a 2100 that i never got to work.
bought a stab( from Sudan) 3 hours later watch the arc. that 2100 is still on the ground where i throw it. that was 5 years ago now,at that time i did not think anyone really had one these that worked. i still wonder LOL. will not tell how many hours on the roof i was at it, but i never did like the idea that if i got the dish too loose on that motor the dish would hit the ground from some height.
those upside down motors must work.
just keep trying or buy a stab 100 like i did.
 
thanks all,
my mast is perfectly plumb from every angle...
I appreciate the insights, but if I were as far off as you suggest why would I be tracking from 60 to 100 just fine and then lose everything after that?
I have line of sight to the far western sats, the fact that I can hit 119 with the "pzza dish" is testament to this.
I'm certain I've optimised my signal, and that this dish needs no further alignment.
could there be something wrong with my motor? I did notice a bit of play in it, but assumed this is normal.

Quasimodem,

As always, the mast must be absolutely plumb and there is no allowance for skimping here. You state that your mast is plumb and I trust you on this, but this is one of those bold print disclaimers that I always try to toss out there everytime, just in case some other person is listening in and the plumb of the mast proves to be the source of their errors.

Now, here is the dilemna with making a motor and dish track the arc properly. We are dealing with the latitude angle of the motor and the elevation angle of the dish bracket, not to mention the azimuth angle (E-W aiming) of the entire assembly.

If these angles are not all precisely correct, but you are semi-close, you may track only a portion of the arc. The portion of the arc where your system is tracking good may be on the east side, in the center or on the west side of the arc or any other portion of it.

Let's say that you are tracking the arc well near the center of the arc, which is often the case. The further west or east you drive the motor, the track of the motor and dish may be falling low and away from the real arc. In the center of the arc, you may be high, but not too high so that you lose the signal.

Refer to the diagrams I attached, if the picture isn't too clear, try the zip file (it's the same thing, but might look more presentable than the image I have attached). These diagrams are for polar mount dishes, not offset ones like you are setting up now, but you can apply it just the same. Just consider your motor latitude angle as the declination angle.

Going back and starting at the beginning:

1] The mast must be plumb.

2] The motor latitude must be set precisely to your site's latitude coordinate.

3] The motor tube must have no slop or play on the motor stem and the internal gear backlash must be set correctly. This cannot be too tight or you motor will move too slowly or fault out and may draw excessive current from your receiver. Or it may stop short of the target position. It cannot be too loose or the dish assembly will "flop" in the wind and even on a calm day, the dish assembly will not stop at the same positon each time... It may sag one direction or the other depending upon how gravity pulls upon it.

4] The motor assembly must be aimed directly at your true south satellite. This satellite's orbital position (degree) would be the very nearest number to your site's longitude degree. i.e. if your latitude is 96.4W, then you must use the satellite at 97.0W as your true south sat. You won't be able to accurately pinpoint this angle without the response from the signal meter on your receiver or a very good meter, so at first you will be merely roughing it in.

5] You should peak first on your true south satellite, then work your way east and west of that sat (center sat) and tweak your dish elevation and your entire asemblies azimuth angles to peak the signal. DON'T MOVE THE MOTOR LATITUDE unless you suspect it to be inaccurate.

6] If you suspect that you haven't dialed your motor latitude correctly, then remove the dish from the motor tube and (with your motor driven to the zero degree position) place a very good quality dial inlimeter on the bottom side of the motor housing or the belly of the motor and adjust your motor latitude so that the inclinometer reads an angle equal to: 90 degrees minus your site's latitude. This resultant value would actually be your motor's ELEVATION reading.

LATITUDE + ELEVATION = 90

7] If you are with me so far, then the next step is to confirm the tracking of your arc. go east/west of your true south satellite as far as you are able without losing the signal from the satellites. If you begin to lose the signal, go back a small degree towards your true south sat and gently grasp the dish from behind and put a very slight pressure to try to tilt it upwards or downwards and record which direction you need to move the dish elevation to improve the signal. Don't move anything yet...

8] Next, do the very same thing as in step 7, but try to turn the dish very slightly east or west and see which direction improves the signal. Take this informatin and that gathered in step 7 and try to adjust your dish just a ery minor amount in the direction/s necessary.

9] If you are highly satisfied with your reception from the true south satellite, then use USALS for all your motor controlling and poitioning. Don't try to use DiSEqC 1.2 as that will hide your dish and motor alignment errors and you won't be able to detect which direction you truly need to move to peak the signal. Using USALS will automatically drive the dish to that position and then you can test/check the alignment for errors.

10] The rest is all an affair of redundantly retesting and re-tweaking your alignments.

This process requires much patience as I have often stated, but it is just something that needs to be done if you want it right. It isn't easy at first, but you develop a sense for it eventually.

I hope these guidelines will help you and I wish you good luck!

RADAR
 

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I will try to resend the zip file for the image. This is the same image that others have used, but this one is in color, it helps with the visualization.

RADAR
 

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Check you cables too

Quasimodem,

As always, the mast must be absolutely plumb and there is no allowance for skimping here. You state that your mast is plumb and I trust you on this, but this is one of those bold print disclaimers that I always try to toss out there everytime, just in case some other person is listening in and the plumb of the mast proves to be the source of their errors.

Now, here is the dilemna with making a motor and dish track the arc properly. We are dealing with the latitude angle of the motor and the elevation angle of the dish bracket, not to mention the azimuth angle (E-W aiming) of the entire assembly.

If these angles are not all precisely correct, but you are semi-close, you may track only a portion of the arc. The portion of the arc where your system is tracking good may be on the east side, in the center or on the west side of the arc or any other portion of it.

Let's say that you are tracking the arc well near the center of the arc, which is often the case. The further west or east you drive the motor, the track of the motor and dish may be falling low and away from the real arc. In the center of the arc, you may be high, but not too high so that you lose the signal.

Refer to the diagrams I attached, if the picture isn't too clear, try the zip file (it's the same thing, but might look more presentable than the image I have attached).

Going back and starting at the beginning:

....

RADAR

That is a great step by step explanation, I am keeping a copy of that in my notes.

It appears from reading a number of posting that at some point most people (at least me) will convince themselves that that it is a bad LNB and buy a new one . . . don't do that.

But beore you do anything check out your cables. Last week I had something odd happen with 30W. I had been able to receive it but then suddenly I couldn't.

I figured I was going to have to re-peak my setup but then I noticed that the signal level was really low when it was on 30W. I had previously noticed that even when nothing was hooked up to my receiver the display would often show a low signal (background noise, I guess). I had also noticed that when you connect it to an LNB the signal level goes up, even if you are not pointed at a satellite (amplified background noise, I guess).

Anyhow, I noticed that when I was pointed at 30W the signal level was similar to what I would see when there was no LNB attached. The cables going from my switch to the LNB were not zip tied to the support arm and when the dish moved to 30W one of the cables would flex and what turns out to be a damaged cable would become useless.

Check your cabling.
 
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That is a great step by step explanation, I am keeping a copy of that in my notes..

I am glad that you appreciate it. I think it helps when you break the procedure down into steps, that way you know the sequence of events and can pinpoint errors along the way, rather than scratching your head wondering which step was responsible for the error.

It appears from reading a number of posting that at some point most people (at least me) will convince themselves that that it is a bad LNB and buy a new one . . . don't do that..

This is so very true. There are many variables in the system that can cause problems - - - simple hardware failures (like switches and cables/connectors), incompatibility issues with specific devices and receivers, incorrect alignments, weather related issues and of course the most prevalent error - human error. But, as for the LNBF failing, this is quite rare. They are quite hardy pieces of equipment.

I have only found one bad LNBF and that was more than five or six years ago with my DN system. It was a DishProPlus LNBF on a D1000 dish that failed. In the early morning, when it was cool, it worked fine, but as the ambient temperature rose and the sun began to shine on the LNBF, it began to slowly degrade. I don't recall now if it lost 110 or 119 or if it lost one polarity from both. As it cooled down again late in the evening, it would start working again. But, it finally experienced a total hard failure and never recuperated.

But before you do anything check out your cables. Last week I had something odd happen with 30W. I had been able to receive it but then suddenly I couldn't...

Yes, definitely good advice to check the simplest and most inexpensive items in the system first. Cables and connectors are the greatest source of mechanical/electrical connection failures. That doesn't sound quite right - how I worded that, kinda like stating that marriage is the greatest reason for divorce! Ah, but you get the meaning. :)


I figured I was going to have to re-peak my setup but then I noticed that the signal level was really low when it was on 30W. I had previously noticed that even when nothing was hooked up to my receiver the display would often show a low signal (background noise, I guess). I had also noticed that when you connect it to an LNB the signal level goes up, even if you are not pointed at a satellite (amplified background noise, I guess).

Anyhow, I noticed that when I was pointed at 30W the signal level was similar to what I would see when there was no LNB attached. The cables going from my switch to the LNB were not zip tied to the support arm and when the dish moved to 30W one of the cables would flex and what turns out to be a damaged cable would become useless.

Check your cabling.

That was a very excellent demonstration of how to utilize information from previous experiences to troubleshoot a new problem! "Hey, that doesn't look quite right. That looks like what happened when............ AHA!!!!" :D

RADAR
 
Thanks, AcWxRadar...
I set my dish and motor up in the exact manner that you described. I have been a cabinet maker and finish carpenter for over 30 years, so I think I'm qualified to decide my mast is perfectly plumb.
I have tried tweaking my signal on my true south sat. in the manner you have described.
Perhaps I should try a few degrees east or west once more, if I still have reception I'll see if I can find the far western sats.
I studied how to set this whole thing up for almost 3 months...have read endless posts on this and other forums. I certainly appreciate the input here.
I'll post back again after I try moving the dish a bit....
 
quasi: here's one trick you might try, if you haven't already. Go to your western-most satellite that you can get video on, then try gently pushing down on the bottom of the dish-edge, then try lifting up on it to see if you improve or worsen the signal there. That should give you an idea of whether or not your dish is going 'off the arc' as it tracks west. Then it might just take a slight loosening of the motor bracket on the pole and moving it east or west to gain that missing part of the arc.
edit: I see that was covered in Part7 from radar's post.
 
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funny, i have this same issue with my dish & motor. I get great signal on my TS 97w and can track from 89-105.

line of sight is not an issue as I have had fixed dished at g18 and such. I have tried everything suggested EXCEPT increasing the motor lat. it's set at ~26.2 as recommended and I have not moved it. its a dm910 i got cheap.

This is primarily for feed hunting and its currently hitting the main sats I was interested in. But I know it will always bother me if I do not get it tracking the arc completely!
 
Quasimodem, I made some adjustments to my system today. I did change the motor lat and based on the pic of this thread, I was able to determine my azimuth was slightly off. I can now lock good signal on 72, 74, 79, 83, 85, 87, 89, 91, 93, 95, 97 (TS), 99, 101, 103, & 105.

I really want 116.8 but think it may in fact be a LOS issue. I am not going to mess with it too much more. I'll set up a fixed dish for that bird if need be.

So while it is strongly recommended to set the motor lat and not move it, I found that it was not the case for my installation. Just thought I'd let you know.
 
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