Picture seems to glimmer

[Sean Mota]

I see. I have to be a video expert with all kind of equipments, which of course I'm not and I don't. I'm just going by what I see, what's been posted by people in this group and at avsforum. Yeah, okay, you win. Voom's pq is just great. Nobody is any better.

I am also a member of AVSforum and I read a whole lot there. I am not claiming anything but to ask you where is your source of information. Everyone at AVS who has discussed PQ and mbps can tell you that today's number will not be tomorrow's. These things keep changing. Do not take personally either and I am not saying that VOOM's PQ is the most excellent out there either. I can find you one channel whose programs look better than VOOM and that's HDnet.

My real point about this is that a statement like: "All Voom exclusive channels PQ are like DVD" or "Voom 12mbps is really low because everyone else is providing 19 mbsp" need to be verified because neither is true.

There are problems and here we have never hide them from anyone from day one. But you also need to give credit where credit is due.

 

[Madtown HD Junkie]

out oh!!!!!!

Wow....started a war Just tarted this cause i see some glimmer(especially on Equator HD, and sometimes on others....don't watch the movies 1-10) It is there and I was just wondering if it was my Box or a system/software issue because as I stated I think Voom is the best option, at least in the Madison Wisconsin area, and hoped the issue can be resolved. You guys need to relax a bit....just turn on a regular cable feed and force yourself to watch that crap for an hour....it is worse than going to the inlaws with out your wife!!! DTV, Dish(never had it cause they don't offer NFL ticket), and the worst cable company on this earth Charter all don't offer more options than Voom re: HD Programming. Plus they give you a free OTA antenna and only like $39 bucks for lower package. There are more impotant things to worry about....like having to visit the inlaws without your wife.

So do you see the small shimmers going away with new software/firmware update or we have to wait till new satellite come up?

ty

 

[Conjuror]

How in this world do you expect the same quality from a 2003 DVD to a 1965 HD Transfer? This is basic man. We have been telling you the same over and over again. Of course, the 2003 DVD would look better than the 1965 HD Movie whose masters has gone through temperature changes, deteroriation and who knows what else.

When you compare DVDs to HD transfer, you need to compare the same DVD for the movie to the HD transfer. That is only fair. You cannot take a 2003 DVD and say to me I get better quality on this than the 1965 movie HD transfer I saw on Cinema 1. That is not the way to do it.

You see, you still didn't get the picture. Let me explain again. Roughly 80% movies on Voom's cinema channels are very old. Capability is one thing but what we actually see is another. Therefore, when I say that newer DVDs look better then Voom's cinema channels, that is exactly what I mean. When Voom begins broadcasting newer movies I'll say that DVD is no match to cinema channels. Until then, newer DVDs have better PQ (and sound) than cinema channels for about 80% of the time.
In fact, I don't care about cinema channels at all - I rarely ever watch them. My Voom favorites are EquatorHD and WorldSport and PQ issues them is what bothers me. Those two channels (among few others) suppose to be Voom's best shot and that is why I want to see them improved. You would be really helpful if you can tell me whether or not we can expect less compression on those channels when they implement mpeg4 or wm9?

 

[Tvlman]

Some claims seem legit while others need to calibrate their sets.

 

[voomvoom]

You see, you still didn't get the picture. Let me explain again. Roughly 80% movies on Voom's cinema channels are very old. Capability is one thing but what we actually see is another. Therefore, when I say that newer DVDs look better then Voom's cinema channels, that is exactly what I mean. When Voom begins broadcasting newer movies I'll say that DVD is no match to cinema channels. Until then, newer DVDs have better PQ (and sound) than cinema channels for about 80% of the time.
In fact, I don't care about cinema channels at all - I rarely ever watch them. My Voom favorites are EquatorHD and WorldSport and PQ issues them is what bothers me. Those two channels (among few others) suppose to be Voom's best shot and that is why I want to see them improved. You would be really helpful if you can tell me whether or not we can expect less compression on those channels when they implement mpeg4 or wm9?

Hey Conjuror... if you were light... I would be dark... like you I want my PQ to be perfect and HD is supposed to do just that (or come close)... apparently you're having more problems with PQ than some of us, or maybe you just need glasses... that being said, I would still rather watch a grainy looking old movie on one of the 10's, that still don't look bad to me, than watch a brand new release on DVD, simply because, I (myself) prefer a good story content over the trash you get on todays movies... I'm not saying I haven't watched or don't watch any of the new crap, I'm saying I prefer the old stuff much better... their's more to a movie than just appearance and the new releases on DVD don't have it... a good example of content you might can relate to would be Barney on the Andy Griffith Show, as old as it is, I would put him and his facial expressions up against anyone today, including the Fonz from Happy Days (which is also old, but not as old) and his one liners, but even the Fonz is better than anything out there today... you keep your DVD's and enjoy your PQ, while (I'm quite sure) you get absolutely no value from them...

 

[Sean Mota]

You see, you still didn't get the picture. Let me explain again. Roughly 80% movies on Voom's cinema channels are very old. Capability is one thing but what we actually see is another. Therefore, when I say that newer DVDs look better then Voom's cinema channels, that is exactly what I mean. When Voom begins broadcasting newer movies I'll say that DVD is no match to cinema channels. Until then, newer DVDs have better PQ (and sound) than cinema channels for about 80% of the time.
In fact, I don't care about cinema channels at all - I rarely ever watch them. My Voom favorites are EquatorHD and WorldSport and PQ issues them is what bothers me. Those two channels (among few others) suppose to be Voom's best shot and that is why I want to see them improved. You would be really helpful if you can tell me whether or not we can expect less compression on those channels when they implement mpeg4 or wm9?

Your point has nothing to do with compression or mbps on any of the cinema 10 channels. Your point has to do more with your subjective preference. Whether VOOM allocates 50mbps on every single Cinema 10 channel (an exaggeration) will not make "Crimson Pirate" grainy moments in the picture dissapear. It will not make "Lassie come home" any better. As a matter of fact, it will not make the movie at all look as good LOTR TTT DVD's. Again you missed the point. Don't compare movies of 2003 on DVDs with movies of 1965 HD transfer. To make a fair comparison compare The "Crimson Pirate" DVD to the "Crimson Pirate" HD Transfer.

If your expect Cinema 10 to broadcast new releases of movies, you are setting your hopes too high. Cinema 10 will not get those contracts/rights. Those contracts/rights are allocated to the premium channels like - Starz, HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, TMC, and even PPV. Cinema 10 may add more movies, but you won't see a 2003 movie there until those rights are relinquish by the big premium movies channels.

 

[Conjuror]

Your point has nothing to do with compression or mbps on any of the cinema 10 channels. Your point has to do more with your subjective preference. Whether VOOM allocates 50mbps on every single Cinema 10 channel (an exaggeration) will not make "Crimson Pirate" grainy moments in the picture dissapear. It will not make "Lassie come home" any better. As a matter of fact, it will not make the movie at all look as good LOTR TTT DVD's. Again you missed the point. Don't compare movies of 2003 on DVDs with movies of 1965 HD transfer. To make a fair comparison compare The "Crimson Pirate" DVD to the "Crimson Pirate" HD Transfer.

If your expect Cinema 10 to broadcast new releases of movies, you are setting your hopes too high. Cinema 10 will not get those contracts/rights. Those contracts/rights are allocated to the premium channels like - Starz, HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, TMC, and even PPV. Cinema 10 may add more movies, but you won't see a 2003 movie there until those rights are relinquish by the big premium movies channels.

As I said, I do not care about cinema channels at all. Therefore, when I asked the compression question, I had other channels in my mind and I think you knew it but you are still trying to put me on a level where I not suppose to understand what makes good PQ, including source material. I think you do it intentionally just to get away from the topic. That's fine but we all know that a lot of people complained about PQ on this forum, not just me. Are all of us making it up?

Let me make one thing clear and you tell that I'm wrong. Voom is not going to be HD leader in the industry if their PQ is not match or better to the one on HDNet and by broadcasting 40-50 years old movies.

 

[DarrellP]

For a fair comparison of PQ, if you have HDNET and Voom check out A Chorus Line today on HDNET. It showed recently on Voom and I'm sure it will come back again soon on DivineHD.

 

[barth2k]

the age of the movie doesn't necessarily correlate with PQ, unless you're talking about really old movies where the prints have gone bad. Many old 60s and 70s movies on hdnet movies look better than new movies on hbo. It's a matter of getting good prints and good transfers (and transmitting at adequate bitrates).

Anyway, we're getting sidetracked. I understand Sean you're a supporter and don't want to let PQ complaints go unchallenged, but you are ultimately hurting Voom viewers by continuing to attribute these complaints to people having bad eyes, bad equipment, being malcontents, whatever. (Gee, it couldn't be b/c they've seen good HD elsewhere and don't think Voom measures up?) It's why I'm pessimistic about Voom resolving these issues. As long as there's no concensus, Voom has an excuse to do nothing. It's not like they've got known, agreed upon problems licked.

 

[Sean Mota]

As I said, I do not care about cinema channels at all. Therefore, when I asked the compression question, I had other channels in my mind and I think you knew it but you are still trying to put me on a level where I not suppose to understand what makes good PQ, including source material. I think you do it intentionally just to get away from the topic. That's fine but we all know that a lot of people complained about PQ on this forum, not just me. Are all of us making it up?

You are the only one who brought up constantly the Cinema 10 channels. If you want me I can list all the threads and posts. So which HD channels on VOOM are you talking about? We have three pages worth of posts almost and now you tell me that you are talking about another HD channel. Please post which channel looks like DVD quality so that we can clear the smoke once and for all.

I am not trying to put you or anyone at any level (or down). I am trying to undertand your premises on this posts and others. I have seen posts where customers have said there is something wrong with this channel or this channel and I have agreed with them. When there is something wrong, we need to put it in the light of everyone. Such is the case with Equator-HD with the "mosquito" noise. Such is the case with the Tennis-SD Channel with the bad PQ. Such is the case with various SD channels showing sparkles (A&E, CNN, etc). There are also the constant "black screen" and "white snow" screens that show up from time to time. There is the audio drop in HDnews.

The difference here is that you made a general statement, "Cinema 10 channels or any exclusive VOOM channel are no better than a DVD PQ". That was your statement. My inquiry was only to undertand how did you come to this conclusion. If I cannot ask the why and the how? then how are we supposed to check false/true hypothesis?

Let me make one thing clear and you tell that I'm wrong. Voom is not going to be HD leader in the industry if their PQ is not match or better to the one on HDNet and by broadcasting 40-50 years old movies.

Again, here's another statement you are making and I am going to ask. Does ESPN-HD, HBO-HD, SHO-HD, & TNT-HD look the same as HDnet on E*, D* or Cable. Can you give us more information as to why this claim? I am only asking the why and the how? Simple inquiry.

 

[Sean Mota]

the age of the movie doesn't necessarily correlate with PQ, unless you're talking about really old movies where the prints have gone bad. Many old 60s and 70s movies on hdnet movies look better than new movies on hbo. It's a matter of getting good prints and good transfers (and transmitting at adequate bitrates).

I agree with you on this. These are variables that would come into play. Do you agree with my statement that in order to compare PQ of HD to DVD you need to look at the same movie? This is the only thing I have asked. If the conclusion comes out that the DVD looks better then it is. But why? was it the HD transfer? was it the channel is not given enough mbps? What is it? but only if you compare the same movie on DVD and HD Transfer

Anyway, we're getting sidetracked. I understand Sean you're a supporter and don't want to let PQ complaints go unchallenged, but you are ultimately hurting Voom viewers by continuing to attribute these complaints to people having bad eyes, bad equipment, being malcontents, whatever. (Gee, it couldn't be b/c they've seen good HD elsewhere and don't think Voom measures up?) It's why I'm pessimistic about Voom resolving these issues. As long as there's no concensus, Voom has an excuse to do nothing. It's not like they've got known, agreed upon problems licked.

Please point to me one thread where I have going blind and said the contrary. I really like to read it and see what you are talking about. As opposed to your statement, just because I am a moderator here does not make me a supporter to the point where I go blind and my judgement is impaired. Your statement is very offensive to me and everything I have tried to do here. My only question to you and conjuror was where did you get your information because I would like to listen or read the source. If that makes me a VOOM supporter, so let it be. But let it be clear that I would ask the same whether it was E*, D* or cable. Voom supporter, please. I have very little to gain by doing this, except for my over all enjoyment of having HD programming.

 

[Sean Mota]

For a fair comparison of PQ, if you have HDNET and Voom check out A Chorus Line today on HDNET. It showed recently on Voom and I'm sure it will come back again soon on DivineHD.

DarrellP,

Yes, it will be good to watch this on HDnet. I heard that it was OAR on HDnet which it is always has better PQ than the cropped one shown in HD on Cinema 10. I did not watch it when it was on Cinema 10.

 

[andrzej]

barth2k,
could you give me a pointer to your source of the info that cable is providing HD channels wih 19Mbps? Thanks.

 

[vurbano]

I want some 19mbps cable too. lol. Only place I know to get that is .. well.... nowhere. Even my affliates run at least a weather radar. Maybe FOX OTA when it goes HD.

 

[DarrellP]

I want some 19mbps cable too. lol. Only place I know to get that is .. well.... nowhere. Even my affliates run at least a weather radar. Maybe FOX OTA when it goes HD.

Don't hold your breath, even a lot of OTA stations aren't broadcasting full bitrate. It really sucks to watch CSI macro blocking during fast action knowing that CBS is supporting an SD channel along side of it. They keep claiming that 12-14 Mbs is enough but then why do they turn off the SD channel for a major event like the Super Bowl? Go figure.

 

[barth2k]

andrzej: here's the thread from avsforum.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=402977&highlight=comcast+and+compress

it gets into a long discussion about what cable does but it boils down that comcast doesn't do any (additional) compression. from ken h:

"Downstream from MPEG2, Comcast does not reduce HD quality. They do use QAM modulation, but it does not affect HD image or sound quality.

Other providers may vary."

The reason I say /additional/ compression is b/c of course mpeg2 IS a compression codec, so everything is compressed already. Comcast just doesn't put another layer of compression on it to fit it in their pipe.

Of course you may choose not to believe this and think nobody gives you anything better than 12mbps.

edit: oops, forgot to put the link in

 

[andrzej]

andrzej: here's the thread from avsforum.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=402977&highlight=comcast+and+compress
...

Thanks, I missed that tread on AVS. It looks like Comcast my indeed deliver their HD channels with 19Mbps, at least in some areas. I actually have Comcast, D* and V* but no HD package with Comcast. I am not impressed with Comcast PQ vis a vis V* on SD channels. I may try their HD just to test their PQ.

 

[Dvlos]

Comcast has the most horrendous HD in my area, and supposedly they've run fiber op and are broadcasting digital from the head end. Maybe they haven't upgraded everything yet.