Replacing Aging Birds?

[Frank Navin]

I think ATT/DTV would all but slit their wrists before giving Charlie the rest of 119.

Only way that is happening is if Charlie trades AT&T for lots of wireless spectrum.


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[navychop]

Can’t happen. Dish has “5G” commitments. Nationwide. I suspect he has always known the market for such was vehicles and a few other commercial markets.

 

[NYDutch]

I think ATT/DTV would all but slit their wrists before giving Charlie the rest of 119.

Does Dish even have any need for the rest of the shared orbital slots at 110 and 119?

 

[pattykay]

Does Dish even have any need for the rest of the shared orbital slots at 110 and 119?

It had been speculated that Dish could end their lease at 129 and move that programming to 110 and 119, allowing them to do Western Arc installations with a Dish 500, instead of needing line of sight to the full Western Arc. Another alternative would be to end their lease at 118.7 and move the international programming to the core orbital slots instead. This would simplify installations for international channel subscribers. More and more international channels are being added as streaming options through Hopper-interface receivers. However, for those channels that are still carried on satellite, it would be nice to provide a convenient option to get those channels with a standard Dish 1000.2 instead of requiring the larger Dish 1000+.

 

[NYDutch]

It had been speculated that Dish could end their lease at 129 and move that programming to 110 and 119, allowing them to do Western Arc installations with a Dish 500, instead of needing line of sight to the full Western Arc. Another alternative would be to end their lease at 118.7 and move the international programming to the core orbital slots instead. This would simplify installations for international channel subscribers. More and more international channels are being added as streaming options through Hopper-interface receivers. However, for those channels that are still carried on satellite, it would be nice to provide a convenient option to get those channels with a standard Dish 1000.2 instead of requiring the larger Dish 1000+.

Would Dish need to add another satellite in those slots to do that? Or would the existing satellites have enough capacity. Dish currently has Echostar 10 and 11 at 110, and Echostar 14 at 119. I don't know what it would take to make Anik F3 usable in the 119 slot without LNB mods for multiple sat dish use or if F3 could even use 8PSK at all.

 

[DishSubLA]

I think ATT/DTV would all but slit their wrists before giving Charlie the rest of 119.

Not if it mean positive cash flow and a sign that they are dumping satellite. Remember, AT&T no longer sees the vMVPD business (pay-TV multi-channel service such as their AT&T Now or whatever they re-named it, and moved everyone else over to), is NO LONGER their focus nor where they see future growth. Instead they see their Turner properties and MOST especially, HBO Now as their primary business focus. So, from AT&T's new perspective, Ergen would be welcome to have any their unneeded satellite Xpdrs or capacity or even welcome to LEASE one or more of DTV's excess DBS sats--in exchange for some $$$-- because Dish is no longer seen as a competitor in AT&T's re-alignment of where AT&T feels they can make real money and the future of the company, as well as DUMPING as much of DTV as they can. The real hurdle would be agreeing on a price. At this point and fairly far in the future NOBODY really wants DTV, and for those investment funds, they would only buy DTV for CHEAP price so they can strip its assets. Only Dish has a legitimate compelling reason to consider leasing or buying DTV assets (if the price is right), and in some way, deal with DTV, even if it is only to LEASE (or buy) Xpdrs or sats from DTV.

 

[DishSubLA]

Does Dish even have any need for the rest of the shared orbital slots at 110 and 119?

He could CRAM the current Internationals at 118 on the remaining transponders at 119, and maybe even the 2 DTV transponders (if I remember correctly) at 110. It may not be a "pretty picture" for SD channels, but it would be a solution that could get them by. IMHO, AT&T would be willing to deal for the transponders, but like DTV as a whole, AT&T overvalues what it has, so the price may not be right for either AT&T or Dish. BTW, how long can DTV keep those transponders not in use? I know the FCC does NOT allow "warehousing" and at some point DTV would, by default, LOSE those transponders. Getting CASH for them is the much better option, especially since AT&T is no longer betting on vMVPD, but focusing on Turner properties and, to a very high degree, HBO Max, so Dish is no longer really a competitor in AT&T's new business vision moving forward.

 

[NYDutch]

He could CRAM the current Internationals at 118 on the remaining transponders at 119, and maybe even the 2 DTV transponders (if I remember correctly) at 110. It may not be a "pretty picture" for SD channels, but it would be a solution that could get them by. IMHO, AT&T would be willing to deal for the transponders, but like DTV as a whole, AT&T overvalues what it has, so the price may not be right for either AT&T or Dish. BTW, how long can DTV keep those transponders not in use? I know the FCC does NOT allow "warehousing" and at some point DTV would, by default, LOSE those transponders. Getting CASH for them is the much better option, especially since AT&T is no longer betting on vMVPD, but focusing on Turner properties and, to a very high degree, HBO Max, so Dish is no longer really a competitor in AT&T's new business vision moving forward.

Dish already has two sats (E* 10 & 11) in the 110 slot and two more (E* 14 and Anik F3 internationals) in the 119 slot. Do they really need DTV's two sats as well?

 

[navychop]

It the frequencies.

 

[pattykay]

It the frequencies.

Yes, as long as Dish gets those, it doesn't matter which satellite they use to actually broadcast those frequencies. As I mentioned earlier, Dish is already working on freeing up some frequencies on their existing satellites at those locations, by turning off the local SD-feed spotbeams in various groups of local markets across the country. This is in spite of the fact that Dish has made no real effort to start turning off SD duplicates of national channels yet. However, once the frequencies being used for those local spotbeams get reclaimed, those frequencies can then be reused for more national channels.

 

[Ypsiguy]

Dish has Echostar 23 parked at 67.9W, just waiting for use.

 

[MrDRC]

Dish has Echostar 23 parked at 67.9W, just waiting for use.

Intersting. There is almost zero info on that bird and it's not even shown on their website as being in the fleet. Surely it's not sitting up there doing nothing?

 

[NYDutch]

EchoStar 23 is owned by EchoStar not sister company Dish. Apparently it's intended to relocate to 72.6 at some point.

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[Ypsiguy]

Yeah. Lyngsat has it there, doing nothing as far as TV. It is parked there pending Canadian government approval to replace Nimiq 5.

 

[MrDRC]

Is anyone aware of a satellite being launched by ES/Dish or DTV and doing nothing for 4 years? Appears to be quite the waste of resources. I remember years ago when new birds were launched to quite the fanfare around here and they were up and running in short order. Echostar XXIII seems be in an odd state just sitting there wasting yearly life cycles.

Not sure why it would be replacing Nimiq 5. I can't find any reference in the Canadian (CRTC) equivalent of our FTC about this satellite either. If it's waiting on Canadian approval they need to file an application. I wonder if there is a problem with the bird. That seems more plausible than waiting 4 years for approval of an already launched satellite. That would have been done years ago and approved by now. Don't believe it's that.

 

[navychop]

I believe it was intended as an in orbit spare.

 

[pattykay]

And Dish is now making moves to prove that they are more than capable of shuffling things around to make use of the capacity that they already have. As of this afternoon, Sacramento HD locals are no longer on CONUS at 119, but rather have been moved to a spotbeam at 129:

Uplink Activity Updates » Blog Archive » 2/10/21 at 3:14pm ET (v03) – 198 changes seen

Channels Moved
14103 KVIE2 SACRAMENTO, CA (PBS) moved from 119° TP 8 to 129° 9s16 (North California) (OTA EPG Data)
15129 KVIE3 SACRAMENTO, CA (PBS) moved from 119° TP 8 to 129° 9s16 (North California) (OTA EPG Data)
6395 KXTV (10 HD Local) SACRAMENTO, CA (ABC) moved from 119° TP 8 to 129° 9s16 (North California) (HD Sacramento, CA market Hidden)
6396 KOVR (13 HD Local) STOCKTON, CA (CBS) moved from 119° TP 8 to 129° 9s16 (North California) (HD Sacramento, CA market Hidden)
6397 KCRA (3 HD Local) SACRAMENTO, CA (NBC) moved from 119° TP 8 to 129° 9s16 (North California) (HD Sacramento, CA market Hidden)
6398 KTXL (40 HD Local) SACRAMENTO, CA (FOX) moved from 119° TP 8 to 129° 9s16 (North California) (HD Sacramento, CA market Hidden)
6399 KQCA (58 HD Local) STOCKTON, CA (MNT) moved from 119° TP 8 to 129° 9s16 (North California) (HD Sacramento, CA market Hidden)
6401 KVIE (6 HD Local) SACRAMENTO, CA (PBS) moved from 119° TP 8 to 129° 9s16 (North California) (HD Sacramento, CA market Hidden)
6403 KUVS (19 HD Local) MODESTO, CA (UNIVISION) moved from 119° TP 8 to 129° 9s16 (North California) (HD Sacramento, CA market Hidden)
6405 KTFK (64 HD Local) STOCKTON, CA (TELEFUTURA) moved from 119° TP 8 to 129° 9s16 (North California) (HD Sacramento, CA market Hidden)
6409 KOVR (13 HD) STOCKTON, CA (CBS) moved from 119° TP 8 to 129° 9s16 (North California) (HD Sacramento, CA market Hidden)

Sacramento HD locals had previously been moved to CONUS years ago, following a failure on the satellite at 110 where their old spotbeam had been. Dish had to shuffle around a lot of local markets on the satellites at that point, using in-orbit spare capacity. Most of the markets that were affected had duplicate spotbeam coverage, so it was just a matter of moving the channels from one spotbeam to a different one. However, Sacramento and a handful of other markets ended up on CONUS, since Dish did not have adequate spotbeam coverage to serve those markets and/or continue to offer the standard-def locals that were already taking up space on those spotbeams. Dish's recent moves to start turning off standard-def locals in several markets across the country must have finally helped them free up the capacity they needed in order to move the Sacramento HD channels to a spotbeam now.

 

[DishSubLA]

Dish already has two sats (E* 10 & 11) in the 110 slot and two more (E* 14 and Anik F3 internationals) in the 119 slot. Do they really need DTV's two sats as well?

We (or at least I was) were talking about TRANSPONDERS and LICENSES. The Dish/Echostar birds are capable of transmitting on the current DTV transponders at 110 and 119 (really ALL DBS transponder frequencies and in a number of configurations). Echo 11 is an ALL Spotbeam sat, and has NO CONUS capability, and is NOT capable of providing critical CONUS backup should E10 fail, and E10 is providing ALL the CONUS services, and while E10 can be configured to operate some spotbeam to make up for E11's loss--at the loss of some CONUS transponding capability, if either sat dies, it is a nightmare scenario that will require quite a bit of juggling channels throughout the fleet with likely poor PQ for some channels, unless Dish has sufficient critical back-up, and I don't think there is any back-up to the all spotbeam E11, so it is operations with reduced quality at best, and loss of some LIL's at worst.

Meanwhile, at 119, Echo 14 is providing main Dish English/Latino services using DBS, while at 118.8, Anik F3, a leased Canadian satellite, is providing International services using Ku FSS--NOT DBS, so neither of those sats can provide mutual backup, and each would require its own sat replacement--OR move Internationals over to the current DTV transponders at 119 and 110, as earlier suggested per (likely PAID) agreement with AT&T to use their transponders at 119 & 110. So, NONE of your mentioned sats are sleeping in critical standby mode, but, instead, all the sats you've mentioned are in active use and in both cases unable to provide mutual backup without losing some or ALL services at each sat, and one is not even a DBS sat that only subscribers to International services can receive (because either the single or the Combo DBS/FSS LNB is NOT installed unless one is subscribing to International services. In fact, I've had techs looking to REMOVE or NOT install the FSS LNBF's whenever they can, but I tell I am subscribed to Internationals, and they drop the whole idea).

To answer your question, what Dish would need in a hypothetical satellite failure situation due to many of Dish's DBS owned or leased (and one Ku FSS it leases) sats aging, which is what was brought up for SPECULATION, if one or maybe two sats failed, it may not require any DTV sats--If I am correct of Dish having at least 2 DBS sats in sleeping back-up, but I can't recall that correctly at this time. However, where does Dish put all those international currently at 118.8 using Ku FSS? There seems to be absolutely NO ROOM for all those channels on the current fleet, or not without at least losing some channels because they can only squeeze a limited number at 110 and 119 and 129 (129 is a leased SLOT with Dish/Echostar owned sat that is also aging), the only satellites that most--can't say all--international subscribers are also looking at with their systems, and can receive if AnikF3 goes down.

However, such a failure or even a greater number of looming failures or even just the ability to have critical back-up, Dish could use the younger DTV DBS or two for the right price, and AT&T is no longer seeing value in their MVPD/vMVPD but have stated they are "All-in" with Warner properties and, especially HBO MAX, so this means that AT&T may not see Dish as a competitor to its business (along with AT&T's deep desire to get out of SATS), and would be happy to UNLOAD as much of DTV hardware that Dish is willing to pay, but AT&T probably wants too much money, and we all know how cheap Charlie is. . From AT&T's most recent statements, they are fine leaving the MVPD/vMVPD business (after having paid a ransom for DTV) and letting Dish have all of the MVPD/vMVPD business it wants, with AT&T likely viewing Dish as "stupid" for not getting out of MVPD like AT&T is, so yeah, DTV has some Magic Beans or a Brooklyn Bridge or two to sell or lease to Dish, especially if they can brag about DTV increasing its income while losing subscribers, and demonstrating they are LEAVING satellite while getting paid to do so.

 

[DishSubLA]

Dish has Echostar 23 parked at 67.9W, just waiting for use.

Thanks for the info. I thought they had high quality younger sat (or two) in critical back-up mode. If I remember one of those back-up sats was designed to function with high efficiency at a number of different satellite slots that Dish uses. In other words, it should be able to be configured as a few existing Dish/Echostar satellites now in operation with virtually the same Spotbeam coverage from a number of current Dish orbital slots, so, yeah, it is a very capable back-up for a number of different slots. I thought there was ONE more they also put into sleepy critical back-up stand by. Also is E23 the one that had that Chinese payload that became a failed business venture for Echostar? I know they put it somewhere. Anyway, I mention it because I wonder if that could also be used in Dish's 5G plans. Satellites still play a part in wireless cell phone services, and could be a link in Dish's 5G plans. I know Dish was using sats in its tests of 5G to supplement what was on the ground.

 

[DishSubLA]

Intersting. There is almost zero info on that bird and it's not even shown on their website as being in the fleet. Surely it's not sitting up there doing nothing?

It's call Critical Back-up: intentionally parked doing NOTHING so it can be FREE to be moved, if necessary, and do all the work of a failed satellite. Over the years, satellites have failed, and, fortunately, in orbit spares have been moved into place to resume temporarily lost services. Sometimes the spares may be older sats that new ones replace, or they can be NEW sats with greater capability to serve at more than one location, so such a sat will sleep as a spare until needed. If a satellite were NOT sitting there asleep doing "nothing" it would not be able to come to the rescue of a failed satellite. In orbit spare satellites are always wise to have because sats do and can fail at almost any time and for reasons that sometimes can't be explained, and with no warning. In orbit spares are a calculation to have available. It is a kind of insurance, otherwise it would be chaos and we would all lose services for years, and that would be unacceptable to any business.

Of course, in the early years of Dish, it operated with NO critical back-up in orbit spares. Also, while Dish did have insurance for launches, it never insured its satellites that were in orbit, while DTV insured in orbit, as well as launch. Dish got by in those years, and then they launched enough sats that they had at least one sat, even if older, that could be pressed into back-up service. The infamous Echo IV partial failure occurred from day one of attempted operation with one of its solar arrays refusing to open completely, providing very limited power for reduced operations. Dish tried to recoup that loss through its LAUNCH insurance in a nasty court battle.