The death of HD-DVD is not Blu-Ray but someone in their own backyard!!

[CochiseGuy]

Do you know when these 2 50GB Disney discs will hit the market? And will current players be able to take advantage of the BD-java features?

Gee, I'd like to know when those 2 50GB Disney discs are going to hit the market too.

I do know the two Pirate movies are being released May 22, but they're both being released as a package of one 50GB dual layer and one 25GB single layer disk.

Release info from HighDefDigest.com:
Curse of the Black Pearl
Technical Specs
* Blu-ray
* BD-50 Dual-Layer Disc/BD-25 Single-Layer Disc

Video Resolution/Codec
* 1080p/TBA

Audio Formats

* English PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/24-Bit)
* English Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround
* French Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround
* Spanish Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround

Disc Features:
• Audio Commentaries
• Documentary: "An Epic At Sea: The Making of 'Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse Of The Black Pearl'"
•19 Deleted and Alternate Scenes
• Featurettes: "Moonlight" Scene Progression," "Below Deck," "Fly on the Set," "Diary of a Pirate," "Diary of a Ship," "Producer's Diary with Jerry Bruckheimer"
• Image Gallery
• Blooper Reel
• Theatrical trailers

HD Exclusive Content:
• "Scoundrels at Sea" interactive in-movie feature that presents facts on-screen about the legends and lore of pirates
• Movie Showcase


I don't see anything about games here. Nor is BD-Java specifically mentioned, but maybe that's what that "Scoundrels at Sea" interactive in-movie feature is about. It will be interesting to see how that works on current Blu-ray players & the PS3.

Dead Man's Chest
Technical Specs
* Blu-ray
* BD-50 Dual-Layer Disc/BD-25 Single-Layer Disc

HD Exclusive Content:
• Liar's Dice," a single-player game shot in live-action HD video
• Movie Showcase

Oh boy! This one does have a game!

It took an extra single layer disc to fit in all those extras? I thought one of the advantages of Blu-ray was all the extra capacity on their dual layer discs? I see they're using space hogging uncompressed PCM audio, but no specs yet on the video, but it must be good ole space hogging mpeg2 to take all up that space.

Oh, and Joe? What's that about us HD DVD 'early adapters accepting "lower rez'? I may accept lower rez with Dish's HD Lite because it's not any better with Direct TV, if not worse, and cable doesn't make it out here. But I won't accept it on high def discs. Every single HD DVD movie is encoded at 1080p, just like Blu-ray.

 

[JoeSp]

Gee CC, I goofed. You are right, there are only 75GB of movie in BD for each of the Pirate movies. Man, I should be flogged for a 25gb mistake -- but you know, since we will never see these movies on HD-DVD I guess it really doesn't make a differance does it.

And Vurbano, no format will ever survive without Disney. No Disney -- no long term future. All the HD-DVD camp has to do is institute regional coding -- but wait, then all the current HD-DVD players on the market will be useless as they cannot be upgraded for regional coding. You can wish as much as you want but Disney is not the only one who refuses to work with a non-regional format.

Last time Sony backed a horse they came to the game with no friends and lost. This time Toshiba came to the game with 2 friends and now there is only one. Gee, anyone here thinks history does repeat itself if you don't learn your lessons.

Toshiba came to the game outflanked, jumped out of the gate, hoped others would jump on, others didn't and only one stayed format exclusive and you have got to wonder why they did this? They have one more XMAS to pull a rabbit out of their hat. If not, we won't have to worry, if there is no money in it for retailers they will pull the plug. Maybe this is why Walmart now has twice as many BD movies as HD-DVD movies for sale and on same titles the BDs are cheaper.

 

[CochiseGuy]

Gee CC, I goofed. You are right, there are only 75GB of movie in BD for each of the Pirate movies. Man, I should be flogged for a 25gb mistake -- but you know, since we will never see these movies on HD-DVD I guess it really doesn't make a differance does it.

I wish I could say I've never made a mistake. But when you make make strong, bold statements and claims, you need to know what the hell you're talking about, or your false facts/statements/claims cast doubt on everything you claim.

, No format will ever survive without Disney. No Disney -- no long term future. All the HD-DVD camp has to do is institute regional coding -- but wait, then all the current HD-DVD players on the market will be useless as they cannot be upgraded for regional coding. You can wish as much as you want but Disney is not the only one who refuses to work with a non-regional format.

I've let you slide on this. I have never seen any statement by Disney that they will not release on HD DVD. I've never seen any statement by Disney that refuse to release without regional coding. Can you cite a source? I believe recalling Amir (a Microsoft VP who regularly posts on HD forums) state that HD DVD specs - and therefore all current players - support regional coding if a studio wishes to encode it on a release. I prefer no regional coding. I've already purchased two European HD DVD releases, it's time we adjust & adapt to a global economy. But, if that's what it takes . . . . I'll research that regional coding for ya.

 

[diogen]

I believe Microsoft would have been neutral today if BDA accepted iHD for Blu-Ray. The moment they chose Java (Microsoft was told iHD doesn't have a chance unless they join BDA, according to MS insider), the stage for this war was set.

But I think this war has some positives for us, the end customer. If HD DVD would be stillborn, we would most probably not have anything but MPEG-2 and the first BD "The Fifth Element" would be the best we would see.

Diogen.

 

[diogen]

...no format will ever survive without Disney.

Disney co-developed iHD with Microsoft. They are the least happy party in the BD studio gang.

...No Disney -- no long term future. All the HD-DVD camp has to do is institute regional coding -- but wait, then all the current HD-DVD players on the market will be useless as they cannot be upgraded for regional coding.

Says who?
You got mixed up: when PiP and the BD interactivity finaly gets implemented in BD movies (Nov.1/2007 if it is not delayed again), all 1st generation BD player will be useless.

...anyone here thinks history does repeat itself if you don't learn your lessons.

I do.
And Sony is the one that hasn't learned the lesson: arrogance and sub-par quality encodes doesn't make a winner.

...Toshiba came to the game outflanked, jumped out of the gate, hoped others would jump on, others didn't and only one stayed format exclusive and you have got to wonder why they did this?

This is how you think business is done today?

...They have one more XMAS to pull a rabbit out of their hat.

Very true.
And if the SoC based HD DVD players from Asia manage to cross the $200 mark, it will most likely be the beginning of the end for BD.

...Maybe this is why Walmart now has twice as many BD movies as HD-DVD movies for sale and on same titles the BDs are cheaper.

And BB and FutureShop (here in Canada) doubled their HD DVD collection.

Diogen.

 

[dfergie]

diogen we have a spam program that caught some of your posts, I deleted the duplicates (It does that when you have just a few posts)

 

[navychop]

HD DVD dropped the support for regional coding, and THAT is when they lost Disney, even though Disney was in fact a big supporter of iHD. "There is no Region Coding in the existing HD DVD specification" per this Wiki article - so yes, if HD DVD later adopted regional coding, all current players would ignore it. Disney is big on regional coding, although I don't understand why, since there are only 3 region codes per Wiki (DVD had 6). This Wiki article also has:

Profiles

The BD-ROM specification defines four profiles of Blu-ray players. All video-based profiles are required to have a full implementation of BD-J.

1.0

This is the basic profile that all current Blu-ray players (as of April 2007) are based on. Players based on this profile are only required to have 64 KB of application data area storage, which is typically used for bookmarks and other preference storage. Most players have more than the minimum required 64KB.

1.1 (mandatory November 2007)

What is typically referred to as "Profile 1.1" (but is more formally known as "Final Standard Profile") adds a secondary video decoder (typically used for picture in picture), secondary audio (typically used for interactive audio and commentary) and capability of supporting a minimum of 256MB of local storage (for storing audio/video and title updates). Compliance with this profile will be mandatory for player models introduced to the market after October 31, 2007, but existing products will be unaffected. No players compliant with this profile have been announced or released.

Some profile 1.0 players may be upgradeable via firmware update to profile 1.1 if they have the appropriate hardware. When software authored with interactive features dependent on Profile 1.1 hardware capabilities are played on profile 1.0 players some features may not be available or may offer limited capability (i.e. director commentary may provide only audio rather than audio and video). Profile 1.0 players will still be able to play the main feature of the disc, however.

2.0 (BD-Live)

Profile 2, also known as BD-Live, adds network connectivity to the list of mandatory functions and increases mandatory local storage capability to one GB. No released players have been announced as compatible with this profile. However it has been speculated that the PS3 will be upgradeable to this profile.

3 (Audio Only)

Profile 3 is meant for an audio-only player and does not require video decoding or BD-J.

So yes, some current Blu-ray players, at least, will be upgradeable to the new specs. And they are hardly useless. Such exaggerated claims do not help your cause. And why do you cling to the fantasy that only HD DVD can come out with cheap players?

It's a good article to read, and appears to be updated frequently.

I agree with Diogen's statement: But I think this war has some positives for us, the end customer. If HD DVD would be stillborn, we would most probably not have anything but MPEG-2 and the first BD "The Fifth Element" would be the best we would see.

Nobody's won yet. Blu-ray leads in titles sold and in devices that can play Blu-ray discs. HD DVD has sold more dedicated players. Currently they are neck and neck in the number of titles in the top sellers on Amazon. With such low numbers sold to date, anything can happen.

When do you think we'll hit a million a month in sales? Are we quite at a half million this month?

 

[diogen]

...so yes, if HD DVD later adopted regional coding, all current players would ignore it.

If memory serves, Amir on AVS claimed a while ago that it wouldn't be a problem to upgrade HD players (all players, there are very few manufacturers) to read the region code if needed (but no studio releasing HD requested it). I don't believe Disney is with BD because of region coding.

...And they are hardly useless. Such exaggerated claims do not help your cause.

Just trying to speak the same language, for simplicity sake...

...And why do you cling to the fantasy that only HD DVD can come out with cheap players?

I don't.
I just believe the Microsoft+Broadcom SoC deal (that at least 2 Asian player manufacturers will use) is at least 6 months ahead of any such BD plans. And Sony is much more hesitant to license its IP to Asian manufacturers (for different reasons).

Diogen.

 

[JoeSp]

If M$ is involved in the deal you can bet that these players will not meet all the HD-DVD standards. Their current HD-DVD drive does not support any of the new audio codecs. I believe that this is how they are able to sell the drive for under $200. In addition the 360 does not have HDMI nor does it have analog out for 5.1 so there is no way to get the lossless audio codecs to the receiver.

However, the new 360Elite has HDMI and if I were a betting man I would bet on the new HD-DVD drives to be a new add-on HD-DVD drive that can output the lossless audio codecs thru the new 360Elite to a HDMI receiver. Still, I do not see how you can make a HD player from any camp under $200 that decodes both TrueDolbyHD and DTSMasterLosslessHD. My guess is we will see these players around Xmas so we won't have to wait long.

 

[JoeSp]

CC, did you read anything from the 2007CES. Buena Vista (they are the distribution arm of Disney) said outright that they have no interest in producing their product on HD-DVD. That they are solid in the BluRay camp and are very satisfied with their current sales trend (always trending up).

Also, let me know when the HD-DVD camp releases a title that takes up 75GB on two discs (I agreed to the goof but you must press on) -- Oh yeah, they can't! There is no way to get 75GB on two discs is there?

Hey, and thanks for posting all that GREAT BLU-RAY information on the new BLU-RAY PIRATES discs from DISNEY. It saves me from doing it and helps those on the fence to see where Disney is taking Blu-Ray. Once again, thanks for that post!

 

[CochiseGuy]

If M$ is involved in the deal you can bet that these players will not meet all the HD-DVD standards. Their current HD-DVD drive does not support any of the new audio codecs. I believe that this is how they are able to sell the drive for under $200. In addition the 360 does not have HDMI nor does it have analog out for 5.1 so there is no way to get the lossless audio codecs to the receiver.

However, the new 360Elite has HDMI and if I were a betting man I would bet on the new HD-DVD drives to be a new add-on HD-DVD drive that can output the lossless audio codecs thru the new 360Elite to a HDMI receiver. Still, I do not see how you can make a HD player from any camp under $200 that decodes both TrueDolbyHD and DTSMasterLosslessHD. My guess is we will see these players around Xmas so we won't have to wait long.

Hi Joe -
Unlike the BDA, the HD DVD forum makes it mandatory that every single standalone be able to internally decode both HD audio formats, DTS MA and Dolby TrueHD, and output them in their full bitrate as PCM. The Xbox 360 add-on HD Drive is not a standalone player. As its name implies, it is an add-on HD DVD drive - a PC HD DVD drive in a case. In addition to being playable as an add-on for the Xbox, many people use it as an add-on drive to their PC. So, no, you're not going to find PC drives outputting in HDMI or decoding HD audio. They rely on the device to which they are attached (computer or Xbox) to do the processing, just like the DVD drive in my PC does.

To repeat & summarize - ALL standalone HD DVD players meet HD DVD forum specs and decode HD audio and output them via analog or HDMI. Please stop calling the Microsoft Xbox add-on drive a "player". Its a PC HD DVD drive with a case so it can be attached externally. And like all PC drives, they depend on the device to which they're installed or attached to to the processing.

Also, let me know when the HD-DVD camp releases a title that takes up 75GB on two discs

No need. When you use space efficient HD audio formats instead of space hogging raw, uncompressed audio and use high quality, space efficient video codecs , you don't need to take up terabytes of disk space. Case in point: Warner's "Happy Feet", very highly rated for video & audio quality, fit very nicely on HD DVD 30 GB DL disk, with Dolby Digital Plus 5.1 and a TrueHD audio track and a VC-1 video encode. It fit very nicely on a BD SL 25GB disk with VC-1 video, but unfortunately it only got Dolby EX 5.1 because few BD players can decode TrueHD and there wasn't enough room for space wasting uncompressed PCM. [/quote]

Hey, and thanks for posting all that GREAT BLU-RAY information on the new BLU-RAY PIRATES discs from DISNEY. It helps those on the fence to see where Disney is taking Blu-Ray.

My pleasure. Here's some more Disney BD info:

The Guardian Release Date 1/23/2007
In a surprise feature, there is one exclusive extra, the "Filmmaker Q&A" with director Andrew Davis. Since the Blu-ray spec is currently unable to facilitate true "picture-in-picture" video commentaries, which require support for separate video streams in-player, Disney has created a sort of user-activated version for 'The Guardian.' In fact, the feature is so complex there is an insert in the disc on how to use it. The Q&A material is either selectable from a list of pre-arranged topics, or sometimes available only during select parts of the movie. Unfortunately, some of it is not all that different from what you can get a bit easier in the audio commentary. However, it is exciting to see studios trying out new things on Blu-ray, and bringing the format a bit closer to the full-fledgd, PIP capabilities of HD DVD. (Note: Due to technical limitations, this feature is only accessible to those playing the disc on a PlayStation 3 or a Blu-ray-equipped PC.)

Finding Neverland Release date March 30, 2007
Technical Specs
* Blu-ray BD-50 Dual-Layer Disc

Video Resolution/Codec
* 1080p/MPEG-2
* 480i/MPEG-2 (Supplements Only)

HD Video Quality: 3 stars out of 5
The Video: Sizing Up the Picture

'Finding Neverland' was originally released on standard-def DVD in 2005 by Miramax, which had by then developed a reputation for producing rather lousy transfers. I remember not being very impressed with 'Finding Neverland' on DVD, and unfortunately this Blu-ray version continues the trend. I can only guess that this new 1080p/MPEG-2 encode comes from the same source, because it is still rather weak.

The source looks grainy, overfiltered and whited-out. It's not dreadful, but it's never better than middling. Colors suffer from oversaturation, while the hot contrast washes out the image, so that the transfer always looks like it is fighting itself. Fleshtones also appear a little off, veering toward the reds. Chroma noise can also be a problem -- right from the opening shot of a red curtain, the mosquitoes seem to have found a nice home here.
Source: HighDefDigest.com

BUT, something even MORE important than arguing about Blu-ray / HD DVD -
Will Sanjaya FINALLY get voted off American Idol tonight? I have to cover my ears last night; even I don't sing that bad, even in the shower.

 

[berck]

Will Sanjaya FINALLY get voted off American Idol tonight?

I saw he lasts at least two more weeks. Not that I want him too, just the way things are going.

 

[Jamey K]

I saw he lasts at least two more weeks. Not that I want him too, just the way things are going.

I spent most of last throwing up. My wife says stomach flu, I think it was Sanjaya.

That crap has gone on long enough. First, Bonnie Raitt ain't Country. Second, he looked like a mop. Third, it was his worst "singing" effort yet and Fourth. if we lose a great singer like Melinda or LQ, to keep this freak, I'm gonna crack some skulls.

Don't make me come in there. But I digress.

 

[CochiseGuy]

I spent most of last throwing up. My wife says stomach flu, I think it was Sanjaya.

That crap has gone on long enough. First, Bonnie Raitt ain't Country. Second, he looked like a mop. Third, it was his worst "singing" effort yet and Fourth. if we lose a great singer like Melinda or LQ, to keep this freak, I'm gonna crack some skulls.

Don't make me come in there. But I digress.

Is that what it was? I've felt like crap all day and thought it was flu too. I know it's a cardinal sin to go off topic, but I'm sick of arguing about high def formats that sell a few thousand copies, and ya'll are probably sick of it to.

Sanjaya has been entertaining, but was down right annoying last night. Chris was really annoying as well. Bad performance, but I thought his comments about the VT tragedy were real out of place, like a plea for sympathy votes for another whiny, nasally performance. And, no, Chris, I didn't know "nasally" was a style of singing.

I saw he lasts at least two more weeks. Not that I want him too, just the way things are going.

Are you saying this thing is fixed?
Say it ain't so, Joe!

 

[JonUrban]

You guys are so funny. You'll be arguing these formats just like we did with SACD and DVD-Audio. Both fine formats, both far superior to MP3 and downloaded music, but guess what won?

Now, the same thing will happen with video. The average Joe is going to live with downloaded movies, either to their PCs, TIVOs, or Media Servers. They will even live with 720p Downloaded HD with some cheap as DD sound.

WHY? Because the days of mass purchasing of disc based media is OVER. DONE. GONE.

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will become like LaserDisc. You, me, and the folks that read this forum will buy them, stand by them, talk about them, argue about them, and the rest of the world will just be downloading their HD movies, or using the "On Demand" feature to watch films.

You can already see this today. The NetFlix type of deal will be downloading in a few years. TIVO is already doing it.

If you want to blame M$, that's fine. But they will win because the public wants easy. They don't care about quality.

SACD and DVD-Audio.

There is nothing more to say.........................................

(except that the truth sucks)

 

[JoeSp]

JonUrban -- you could be right but I hope you are wrong. I really like BluRay and I have liked what I have seen of HD-DVD and I hope one or the other format survives and thrives. My preferance is BluRay but if HD-DVD wins then I will plunk my money down on a HD-DVD standalone and enjoy. Why buya 1080p HDTV and have nothing to show on it but low bit rate and low rez product?

As for Sanjaya -- surely he can not survive last night can he? Man, he was awful but that 17 year old has some major pipes!

 

[CochiseGuy]

I saw he lasts at least two more weeks. Not that I want him too, just the way things are going.

Fortunately, there is still comon sense in this world.

But, Joe and I will live to fight another day, unlike Sanjaya. :

Next fight: Rumor still, but Warner is bring out Blood Diamond in June in HD DVD with internet interactivity. Comming to Blu-ray . .. . . . .?

 

[dfergie]

Hell, I really hope they both survive...

 

[CochiseGuy]

Hell, I really hope they both survive...

i Can live with that, I never have figured out which is better - DVD-R or DVD+r. I just bought a drive that can handle both and buy the media thats better priced,

 

[diogen]

...Their [MS] current HD-DVD drive does not support any of the new audio codecs.

Geeez... WTF does a drive have to do with audio decoding ability.
Attach the add-on to a PC and you can pull all the audio tracks you need. Read doom9 for more.

...Also, let me know when the HD-DVD camp releases a title that takes up 75GB on two discs

To paraphrase, when will they get that stupid to need 75GB? Hopefully never.

Diogen.