WMV9 (VC-1) delayed as SMPTE Standard, H.264/MPEG-4 AVC touted as superior

Scotty

SatelliteGuys Pro
Original poster
Jun 13, 2004
154
0
http://www.eet.com/article/printableArticle.jhtml?articleID=50500181&url_prefix=?_taxonomyID=4217

A paragraph from the article at the EE times web site:



Richard Mavrogeanes said:
"VC-1 may be interesting at some point in the future, but [our] members have shown that [H.264/MPEG-4] AVC is technically superior," said Richard Mavrogeanes, founder and chief technology officer of VBrick Systems Inc., and a board member of the MPEG Industry Forum and the Internet Streaming Media Alliance. ISMA advocates a multivendor, interoperable standard, "because that moves the industry ahead," he added.
 
Hmmm I thought WM9 was supposed to be superior, why does it not surprise me that a member of the MPEG industry would tout MPEG4? What I don't understand is, can't Voom implement WM9 (or MPEG4) regardless?
 
Actually, it is generally agreed that WM9 is slightly better than H.264 for HD content. The best prrof is that both the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are adopting WM9 in addition to H.264.
 
Seriously, we've been speculating a buyout because we suspect that something is going on between E* and V*. However, it's possible that it is not about a buyout. It may be simply that E* and V* are partnering to offer HD locals in major US markets using MVDDS ;)
 
I'm hoping that Voom stays away from WM9 and Microsoft in general.

Except for very, very few cases like Dell, partnering with Microsoft results in
the stagnation, strangulation and eventual death of companies and their products.
SGI, Sega, WebTV and many others got sucked in by the promise of a profitable
partnership but ended up losing it's intellectual property and converting previously
promising devices into crash-prone, seldom updated doorstops.

The last thing I want is for Microsoft to somehow box us in a corner and engineer
some requirement that Voom owners will need a Windows box to get "full value"
from Voom's offerings.

Supporting H264 will help insure not only interoperability with Windows, but
will play nice with the Mac and Linux too.

Partnering with M$ is like visiting Jurassic Park:
"Ooh, aah, that's how it always starts, and then later the running and screaming!"
 
billr said:
I'm hoping that Voom stays away from WM9 and Microsoft in general.
WMV9 is not really a software. Like H.264, it is just an algorithm. And just because Microsoft owns more patents in it than it does in H.264, doesn't make this codec better or worse. It sounds as if you think supporting WMV9 means putting Windows or some other Microsoft software into the box :) This is not the case! The box can still run Linux, don't worry! ;)

VOOM is doing the right thing, IMO: working on supporting both standards, so that the decision which one to use could be made later, or even on a channel-by-channel basis.
 
I personally don't care who owns what, if it can be offered to consumers without an increase in price, and increase PQ and channels, I'm all for it.. pick the best one and roll with it.
 
Technically, H.264 implements a bit more than VC-1. But because of that H.264 is a bit costlier (i.e., computing-wise) to implement than VC-1. Also, because of the same reason, H.264 has more room for encoder improvements in the future (as with MPEG-2).

Initially, VC-1 showed better detailed texture performance than H.264. Since then, H.264 has improved the texture encoding issue, so the quality is about the same at the moment.

Hong.
 
billr said:
I'm hoping that Voom stays away from WM9 and Microsoft in general.

Except for very, very few cases like Dell, partnering with Microsoft results in
the stagnation, strangulation and eventual death of companies and their products.
SGI, Sega, WebTV and many others got sucked in by the promise of a profitable
partnership but ended up losing it's intellectual property and converting previously
promising devices into crash-prone, seldom updated doorstops.

The last thing I want is for Microsoft to somehow box us in a corner and engineer
some requirement that Voom owners will need a Windows box to get "full value"
from Voom's offerings.

Supporting H264 will help insure not only interoperability with Windows, but
will play nice with the Mac and Linux too.

Partnering with M$ is like visiting Jurassic Park:
"Ooh, aah, that's how it always starts, and then later the running and screaming!"


I agree totally. Stay away from Microsoft.
 
Ilya said:
WMV9 is not really a software. Like H.264, it is just an algorithm. And just because Microsoft owns more patents in it than it does in H.264, doesn't make this codec better or worse. It sounds as if you think supporting WMV9 means putting Windows or some other Microsoft software into the box :) This is not the case! The box can still run Linux, don't worry! ;)

VOOM is doing the right thing, IMO: working on supporting both standards, so that the decision which one to use could be made later, or even on a channel-by-channel basis.

Even if it does not mean running windows on a box when using VC-1, Microsoft still owns patents and can jack up the price later.

Plus I can see already. "These codec performed illegal operation and needs to be shutdown. Please reboot and send error report to Microsoft"

Stay away from our TV Microsoft!!!
 
CKNA said:
Microsoft still owns patents and can jack up the price later.
Not according to the article mentioned above:

By passing the WMV9 codec to SMPTE, Microsoft is no longer in control of VC-1 royalties. Those terms and conditions must be agreed upon by the essential-patent holders for VC-1. There are 12 of them at the moment, according to the MPEG LA licensing agency.
 
billr said:
Partnering with M$ is like visiting Jurassic Park:
"Ooh, aah, that's how it always starts, and then later the running and screaming!"

That is the absolute funniest analogy I have ever read! If you guys haven't guessed it by now, I'm a Mac Fanatic, and despise what M$ has done to the world of computing. Ok, its not that bad, I have to program with M$ pc's for a living (as a tool to get to linux and solaris, thank god not using .net or mfc), but I'd sure like to be using a Mac instead.

It's no coincidence that big movie companies use quicktime when they want to put a quality trailer up on the web. Did you ever see the first Hulk trailer in windows media format. It was ugly! Quickly replaced with a quality quicktime format tailer. Quicktime is a big part of the MPEG 4 standard, from what I have read.

We'll all be better off not letting M$ get involved in the standards process. They are best off just copying the work others have done and mass producing it cheaply for the masses. If you want quality, seek elsewhere.

The Hi Def DVD folks committed to Microsoft's format without it being ratified as a standard. Only time will tell if that still comes to pass and if it will have been a mistake.
 
Little history lesson.

When PCs started hitting the market 20 or so years ago, people were bitcing about compatibility. Like Beta and VHS.

MS came in and made products that all fitted within it's framework and standardized.

And that's why MS is in it's position, it Standardized and at the time that's what people wanted.

Their security concerns can be questioned, but not their dominance in the market.
 
billr said:
I'm hoping that Voom stays away from WM9 and Microsoft in general.

Except for very, very few cases like Dell, partnering with Microsoft results in
Sega,

SEGA??? That was SONY that helped to Kill Sega.

Had nothing to do with MS.

In fact, MS helped SEGA quite a bit and still does to this day, as far as video games go. IN fact, with MS, SEGA is still able to make great games specifically for XBox.
 
CKNA said:
Even if it does not mean running windows on a box when using VC-1, Microsoft still owns patents and can jack up the price later.

Plus I can see already. "These codec performed illegal operation and needs to be shutdown. Please reboot and send error report to Microsoft"

Stay away from our TV Microsoft!!!


Better stay away from your new car in the next 5 years or so then. MS is trying to get a foothold in the ECU box of your daily car to run operations there. Can see it now, driving along, your beautiful transparent HUD on the windshield showing all relevant information, then BAM!!! The transparent goes blue tint with white writing that you can't make out except for two words "FATAL ERROR!" Next thing you know say hello to Mr. roadside rail or tree, or bus or gas station. Sue MS for the blue screen error and they say "it was your hardware's fault for not having properly signed WHQL drivers to certify with MS". God that is a thing I don't want to even really consider.

Augurr
 
billr said:
I'm hoping that Voom stays away from WM9 and Microsoft in general.

Except for very, very few cases like Dell, partnering with Microsoft results in
the stagnation, strangulation and eventual death of companies and their products.
SGI, Sega, WebTV and many others got sucked in by the promise of a profitable
partnership but ended up losing it's intellectual property and converting previously
promising devices into crash-prone, seldom updated doorstops.

The last thing I want is for Microsoft to somehow box us in a corner and engineer
some requirement that Voom owners will need a Windows box to get "full value"
from Voom's offerings.

Supporting H264 will help insure not only interoperability with Windows, but
will play nice with the Mac and Linux too.

Partnering with M$ is like visiting Jurassic Park:
"Ooh, aah, that's how it always starts, and then later the running and screaming!"


Though it happens often, it's not true for every cases whatsoever.

Look at PC grahics: DirectX 9 came 2 years ago whereas OpenGL 2.0 is still paperware: official specs have been just released, a week ago...

Sometimes it's good if there's a central authority which can decide everything after all, contrary to endless pro and con argumentations, vetoes from equal industrial partners.
 
Guys, relax. Don't worry, as soon as VOOM migrates to WM9, they'll add this to the STB.
 

Attachments

  • mskbd.jpg
    mskbd.jpg
    19.3 KB · Views: 203
T2k said:
Sometimes it's good if there's a central authority which can decide everything after all, contrary to endless pro and con argumentations, vetoes from equal industrial partners.
You're absolutely right. I've worked with industry standards before and it's a complete pain in the a$$ to get everybody to agree.
 
Walter L. said:
Guys, relax. Don't worry, as soon as VOOM migrates to WM9, they'll add this to the STB.

:D
got a good chuckle from that one!
 
Sega was doing fine. M$ convinced them to use Windows CE in the Dreamcast,
providing web connectivity and all. Microsoft did a pretty lame job, never really
providing much more than beta quality add-ons. But... they got Sega to open the
kimono enough that they could launch the Xbox. Sega dropped out of the hardware
biz, both because of the PS2, but also M$ intimidation.

On DirectX, Rick Belluzzo was running SGI. M$ came calling, and contrived with
Belluzo to start building machines based on NT, as well as IRIX, SGI's Unix varient.
As part of providing the port to NT, SGI disclosed everything that gave SGI it's
edge in graphics, especially GL/OpenGL (which SGI invented).

M$ got cross liscensing of OpenGL technology, the NT systems pretty much were
expensive, and delayed and bombed. Belluzzo leaves SGI with a golden parachute,
goes to Microsoft, waits for a year, gets promoted to CEO, leaves with another
golden parachute for his reward for delivering SGI on a platter. DirectX moves from
a lame also-ran against OpenGL, to moving in front of it. SGI almost dies but is
starting to come back, mainly from large government super computer contracts,
bit a shadow of it's former self.

WebTV started out great, a real contender for getting internet into the living room.
An innovative product from very bright people. Totally absent from any Microsoft
code. M$ comes in and offers an incredible amount of money to buy them out.
It happens, they put out a "new" release based on WinCE. It sucks. They kill
development of Java support and just milk the existing customer base but don't
advance it, encouraging WebTV owners to move to Windows PCs. It stagnates
for years, evolving into a mutant mix of 4 year old software with an MSN graphics
front end pasted on.

It's the kiss of vampire death of Voom gets into bed with them.
 
***

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)

Who Read This Thread (Total Members: 1)

Latest posts