Apple officially claims Jailbreaking Illegal
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I dont see how replacing software is not fair use. I dont see apple winning this one. Maybe if apple was more receptive to the software community and wasn't trying to be the communist little whore with their software, people would actually write some good apps and distribute them through apple. The real problem is getting the software approved by apple as if they or att doesnt like it, they can deny it even if it's something that will improve the product as a whole. IE: one example Teathering. Open source is the best thing in the world and some of the best software has been written with open source.
I see apple having a bunch of backlash with this one.
I see apple having a bunch of backlash with this one.
The problem Apple is facing from the guerrillas is that Apple must provide a unified platform and tinkering with the platform can only put them further away from that.
It is always possible to "enhance" something until it will no longer work or it burns up. This applies to just about everything from food to spacecraft to genetic engineering.
It is always possible to "enhance" something until it will no longer work or it burns up. This applies to just about everything from food to spacecraft to genetic engineering.
I agree with Open Source being a good thing but for the companies that make a living from selling software Open Source is not a very good thing for them. There is also a difference in open source and changing copyrighted software that source code has not been released to the community.
I'm not going to be very popular with this position but here's my take on it.
Any cell phone company, in this case AT&T, not Apply, has a right to set its own rules for the service. When you sign the agreement you are agreeing to their terms of contract. To circumvent or bypass their rules and terms of service is a violation and officially makes you a hacker if you use any means to bypass license restrictions. IMO, use of these software or hardware tools to hack your phone is illegal if it violates the terms of service. Additionally, any discussion or advice given on this forum is a violation of the "No Hack Talk" rules.
Now I did qualify this to say that it is an AT&T rules violation to hack the phone to use it in a manner not according to the terms of your license. But what about Apple? They sell you a phone, they do not lease it to you. You own the hardware device and IMO, it is your prerogative to use the phone in any manner you choose as long as it does not violate the terms of cell phone service (AT&T) You can use the phone as a hammer if you want, whatever floats your boat. NOW, if the use of jailbreak or other software enables a feature that is not permitted by AT&T, then it is illegal AND, AT&T must enforce it's terms of service. The only terms of service that they do not have to enforce are those that are also regulated by the FCC. The FCC has that obligation to enforce FCC regulation violations.
So, who the hell does Apple think it is telling you the computer you bought, the iphone you own, is a licensed technology? Well, lets be open minded for a minute and look at it the way Apple does. In addition to the hardware, iphone is also loaded with Apple's iphone operating system which IS a licensed technology. You may be legally able to use your iphone as a hammer but can you hack and modify, reverse engineer the operating system and any of Apple's software? Most likely not. SO, in this argument, I have to agree with Apple, that using anything that hacks the OS or reverse engineers it is a violation of your license agreement.
In addition, as long as the company, Apple, believes that Jailbreak is "illegal" any discussion of it here is a violation of the Satelliteguys.US "No Hack talk" rule.
IT doesn't matter about open source and whether you think it is a good thing, Apple is not open source so the argument is irrelevant.
Apple is not required to fix it's software to prevent the hack. If a bank doesn't lock it's safe and a bank robbery happens, that doesn't make the robbery OK. All it is required to do under the law is enforce it's no reverse engineer or modify OS rules by terminating a person's license of use and this may mean no cell phone service. It is required to notify all violators of this violation and issue a cease and desist order, to remove the offending software or lose service. I'm sure Apple has an agreement with AT&T to shut down the phones in violation .
Apple has already demonstrated it's policy with the iphone after the first hack when they bricked the hacker's phones.
Any cell phone company, in this case AT&T, not Apply, has a right to set its own rules for the service. When you sign the agreement you are agreeing to their terms of contract. To circumvent or bypass their rules and terms of service is a violation and officially makes you a hacker if you use any means to bypass license restrictions. IMO, use of these software or hardware tools to hack your phone is illegal if it violates the terms of service. Additionally, any discussion or advice given on this forum is a violation of the "No Hack Talk" rules.
Now I did qualify this to say that it is an AT&T rules violation to hack the phone to use it in a manner not according to the terms of your license. But what about Apple? They sell you a phone, they do not lease it to you. You own the hardware device and IMO, it is your prerogative to use the phone in any manner you choose as long as it does not violate the terms of cell phone service (AT&T) You can use the phone as a hammer if you want, whatever floats your boat. NOW, if the use of jailbreak or other software enables a feature that is not permitted by AT&T, then it is illegal AND, AT&T must enforce it's terms of service. The only terms of service that they do not have to enforce are those that are also regulated by the FCC. The FCC has that obligation to enforce FCC regulation violations.
So, who the hell does Apple think it is telling you the computer you bought, the iphone you own, is a licensed technology? Well, lets be open minded for a minute and look at it the way Apple does. In addition to the hardware, iphone is also loaded with Apple's iphone operating system which IS a licensed technology. You may be legally able to use your iphone as a hammer but can you hack and modify, reverse engineer the operating system and any of Apple's software? Most likely not. SO, in this argument, I have to agree with Apple, that using anything that hacks the OS or reverse engineers it is a violation of your license agreement.
In addition, as long as the company, Apple, believes that Jailbreak is "illegal" any discussion of it here is a violation of the Satelliteguys.US "No Hack talk" rule.
IT doesn't matter about open source and whether you think it is a good thing, Apple is not open source so the argument is irrelevant.
Apple is not required to fix it's software to prevent the hack. If a bank doesn't lock it's safe and a bank robbery happens, that doesn't make the robbery OK. All it is required to do under the law is enforce it's no reverse engineer or modify OS rules by terminating a person's license of use and this may mean no cell phone service. It is required to notify all violators of this violation and issue a cease and desist order, to remove the offending software or lose service. I'm sure Apple has an agreement with AT&T to shut down the phones in violation .
Apple has already demonstrated it's policy with the iphone after the first hack when they bricked the hacker's phones.
It will be interesting to see Scott's take on that, as the site owner and a Jailbreaker.
Don, I agree with almost everything you have said but the part about Apple and fixing their software. The only reason today that Apple has not fixed the software IMO, is because it sells phones. If they come out and remove the hole they will lose sales of their product. I personally do not have my iPhone jailbroken but I like the idea of being allowed to customize you phone. Now why this is not allowed by Apple by default I have no idea. I would bet you that if this caused Apple to lose money they would have had this resolved within a few days.
I too like the idea of having freedom to do anything you want to with the stuff you have direct control over. So do most people. but I disagree with you that Apple's strategy is to be duplicitous on this issue. I hardly believe that they don't take measures to engineer a prevention in this because they want to sell phones yet on the flip side come out with a statement it is a violation. Anyone who runs a business with intellectual property rights would never do something like that. I have a second reason I disagree too. I really believe without researching the data, that Apple sales of iphones would not suffer significantly if they did brick the jail broken phones after a reasonable warning period to unbreak them. The only people I have met who use the iphones as "power users where JB becomes an integral part of the usage, are people like Scott, who have a need for stuff that iphone does not support. IMO, most are simple iphone users happy with what Apple has done and would never consider tinkering like that. In addition, Apple's entire marketing strategy is built around the Apple cult community. This is a fast growing community and most members are very happy to remain sequestered within the walls of that community spending a small fortune on itunes account, (e.g. my daughter).
I'm sure I would be a "jailbreaker" too if I had an iphone and totally respect the others like me, Scott and goaliebob and a couple of others I know who have hacked the phone. But, I differ, in that I remain using a phone that I CAN DO everything I want without violating the rules. It is one of those reasons I don't want an iphone. I'm not a Mac head but do own a Macbook pro.
So, in counting now, this is number 2 hack, the first being able to rig the phone to sign up for t-mobile or other GSM service and now jailbreaker.
I'm sure I would be a "jailbreaker" too if I had an iphone and totally respect the others like me, Scott and goaliebob and a couple of others I know who have hacked the phone. But, I differ, in that I remain using a phone that I CAN DO everything I want without violating the rules. It is one of those reasons I don't want an iphone. I'm not a Mac head but do own a Macbook pro.
So, in counting now, this is number 2 hack, the first being able to rig the phone to sign up for t-mobile or other GSM service and now jailbreaker.
The problem with this so called hacks is that they do not impact Apple in any negative way. It impacts AT&T but not Apple. They will pretty much not do anything until it hurts their bottom line. Until then it will be pretty much the way it is today.
I also have to disagree about the power users. Besides cut and paste and background applications what else does it not support that these power users really need?
I also have to disagree about the power users. Besides cut and paste and background applications what else does it not support that these power users really need?
Well, Jag, I haven't read the contract agreement between Apple and AT&T so I have no clue what support Apple has agreed to with AT&T. I admit I am guessing that Apple has agreed to support exclusivity enforcement with AT&T. It just seems logical.
As for power users, I know quite a few Iphone owners and just a few of them have gone the extra effort of jail breaking. All of these are "power users" I know two who are using remote server and remote desktop with their XP and Vista PC's. Most people I know with iphones, beyond email and telephone service, just use it for their photos and music
As for power users, I know quite a few Iphone owners and just a few of them have gone the extra effort of jail breaking. All of these are "power users" I know two who are using remote server and remote desktop with their XP and Vista PC's. Most people I know with iphones, beyond email and telephone service, just use it for their photos and music
What if you say that the jail broken software is a 3rd party software based off of apples os. Sorta like linux os's. Theres diffrent versions of it. Like for instance Redhat and Centos wich is the same thing, but the CENTOS has the redhat branding taken away from it. Same code, same verything minus redhad branding and price. Redhat is 350 for the os, Centos is free. I havent seen anything saying you couldnt take off apples software and put your own on. Also, I havent seen anyone calliing CENTOS hacking. In this case its the same thing. You are replacing apples os (ie redhat) with the free version Pineapple (ie centos).
Also the no hack talk rule applys to the stealing of encrypted services over satellite tv. There is no stealing of services here. I still pay my cell bill even with the non apple approved software on my phone and the services of ATT are no way being comprimised.
Also the no hack talk rule applys to the stealing of encrypted services over satellite tv. There is no stealing of services here. I still pay my cell bill even with the non apple approved software on my phone and the services of ATT are no way being comprimised.
Bob, The OS that Apple uses is not open source so it is not even close to the same. Linux can do that because of the license model that it operates under. Apple and Microsoft do not operate under that model. Ask Dish how that model you are talking about worked with Tivo. It is pretty much the same thing. You can't take copyrighted code and use it as your own.
Right now the only thing missing is teathering, the ablity to add folders on the desktop, that I can think off of the top of my head.
Actually, Apple uses unix base on their software wich is open source, just like there os's. While the actual os (Iphone osx) is closed, there is nothing saying you cant add open source apps to the iphone, wich unix is the core of apples OSX os. As long as apples os hasnt changed you should be good and with jailbreaking the kernal remains the same as the offical version released by apple. Adding unix apps in this case jail broken apps is legal because they are based off of unix wich is open source. A case can be made. For anyone who has jail broken an iphone, you still use apples offical firmware to jail break it. Jail breaking adds software to apples software that allows you to mod it. As long as the perpriotory kernel is remains the same, then apple has no case.
If your buying a PC (which it basically it is) you should be able to load whatever software on it you want.
There is software which Apple does not want to bless which is very usefull software, such as winterboard which lets you change the look, icons, battery meter etc...
Other things which are great which Apple won't let companies release is Cycorder which lets you use your iPhone as a video camera. ANother one lets you broadcast live video from anywhere. Then there is another one that lets you orginize all the applications on your iPhone by putting things like games, utilities etc in their own folders.
I have heard that AT&T might not want let Apple release the Slingbox application as they are affraid of the bandwidth it might use, but in the official application store you can buy and download Orb which does the same thing as the Slingbox program. If Apple does not release the SLingbox application I am sure there will be a jailbreaked version which I will load on my phone instead.
Apple and AT&T seem to forget that I am being charge for 5GB of data transfer per month, and thats if I use it or not. It should be up to me how I use it.
There is software which Apple does not want to bless which is very usefull software, such as winterboard which lets you change the look, icons, battery meter etc...
Other things which are great which Apple won't let companies release is Cycorder which lets you use your iPhone as a video camera. ANother one lets you broadcast live video from anywhere. Then there is another one that lets you orginize all the applications on your iPhone by putting things like games, utilities etc in their own folders.
I have heard that AT&T might not want let Apple release the Slingbox application as they are affraid of the bandwidth it might use, but in the official application store you can buy and download Orb which does the same thing as the Slingbox program. If Apple does not release the SLingbox application I am sure there will be a jailbreaked version which I will load on my phone instead.
Apple and AT&T seem to forget that I am being charge for 5GB of data transfer per month, and thats if I use it or not. It should be up to me how I use it.
the video camera and live video broadcasting are likely being denied because of Ergenesque greed, nothing else. Don't allow something cool, unless you can figure out a way to make the user pay a monthly fee for it. Just like the GPS navigation software for blackberry which ATT disables in favor of the app they charge the monthly fee for. They are likely working on their own fee-based video recording app.
There is even an app out there to disable internet over cellular so your apps only access the net when wifi is available. That would solve the problem with slingbox, but it would also prevent ATT from detecting an unauthorized iphone and charging the monthly fee for it, so it's not allowed either.
There is even an app out there to disable internet over cellular so your apps only access the net when wifi is available. That would solve the problem with slingbox, but it would also prevent ATT from detecting an unauthorized iphone and charging the monthly fee for it, so it's not allowed either.
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