Sony has taken back their statement that it will internally decode DTS-MAster and bitstream only. Big conversation over at AVS. According to their chart, it will only support 5.1 DTS, which is core.
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Blu-ray Hardware Deals
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Sony has taken back their statement that it will internally decode DTS-MAster and bitstream only. Big conversation over at AVS. According to their chart, it will only support 5.1 DTS, which is core.
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oh....I was not aware of that. I guess I'll head over to AVS and see whats up. Thanks for the info.
I personally believe that it will internally decode DTS Master. I think most of the problem comes from the confusion of DTS and all of its different labels. I think their chart is just incorrect. I have seen many a players' spec sheet or owner's manujal incorrectly list its capabilities for DTS audio. DTS sometimes uses the label DTSHD to encompass everything. People then take it that it only handles DTS-HD HR and not DTS-HD MA. Then there's DTS advanced Digital Out for bitstreaming. They made their own mess with names. We'll see soon enough whether or not it does. You just start to wonder when Filmmixer chimes in.
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That's what I am waiting for. Even though I came close when Amazon had the Sony BDP-S350 on sale for 278 shipped. But now it is up to 339
Eventually yes... It's pretty easy to tell if you have an AVR that accepts 7.1 audio. If a player internally decodes a 7.1 DTS-HD HR or DTS-HD MA track and sends out 8 channels, then it's all good. If it sends out the typical 6 channels, then you're getting the core. Currently people are getting the core.
People have the right to be annoyed. Denon, Samsung, Onkyo and several others have released players saying they would eventually decode all high res audio formats only to be stuck waiting and waiting and waiting.
Denon has decoded DTS Master from the day it came out as does the Marantz and BD50. I do agree that people should be annoyed at certain manufacturers saying available with a fw update (i.e. Pioneer). I don't recall Onkyo/integra saying it would ever decode and would be a transport to match their receiver line. Sony's firmware promise was for BDLive. Pioneer has promised Master decoding with a FW update for the 51/05. SAmsung's 2550 is an interesting character as it is exclusive to BB and looks like a guinnea pig model for the upcoming 2500. It is supposed to have an upgrade, but the 2500 should ship with it. It's even more confusing as they use the same OM which says use audiohile (bitstream) to get Dts HD, yet the players have the decoders. It will all depend on below.
DTS has been its own worst enemy in this whole HDM mess and this is not BD specific. From specs, to processors that handle it, and now a "supposed" licensing backlog. I wouldn't mind seeing studios and manufacturers dropping DTS and going with Dolby.
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Denon and Marantz still don't internally decode DD+. DD+ is rare on Blu. However, a player that is supposed to decode everything is supposed to decode EVERYTHING. With respect to Onkyo and Integra I am talking about their HD DVD players. HD DVD is dead, but LG and Toshiba continue to release updates on their units. Onkyo should do the same.
DD+ on BD only exists on one obscure title. No retail discs use it. I don't believe the chipsets used in the HDDVD players were ever capable of internally decoding DTS MA, especially based on/cloned from the XA2. Whether or not a gen4 player could have, we'll never know.
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The problem is the proverbial "genie is out of the bottle." Too many Blu-ray discs are shipping with DTS-HD Master Audio being the only audio format used on the disc. Nearly all of the releases from Fox have DTS-HD Master Audio. Universal Pictures seems to be adopting the same exclusive policy. A lot of Blu-ray discs from New Line and Lionsgate also carry DTS-HD.
If DTS-HD support was dropped from new audio video receivers, surround controllers as well as new BD players it would negatively affect the sales of those devices.
I'm putting money away to buy a new 7.1 channel receiver with HDMI 1.3a connections. I absolutely will not buy a receiver lacking either Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD decoding. The PS3 does internal decoding of both formats, but I know full well the PS3 will not be the only Blu-ray player I'll ever own. I went through 3 different DVD players from 1999 to 2007.
Not saying it's going to happen. If studios switched to TrueHD tomorrow, we, as HDM owners, would be no worse off than we are now. Most Gen 1, 2, and 3 players of either format, except the PS3, offer little to no support for DTS Master internal decoding. Bitstream is about it from either format starting with gen2. TrueHD has been supported by many more players since gen1.
I have always thought DTS was a detriment to HDM the way they have operated thus far. DTS has created as much of a mess as the dueling formats.
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I have always thought DTS was a detriment to HDM the way they have operated thus far. DTS has created as much of a mess as the dueling formats.
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I don't think the situation is nearly that clear. I'd like to know the licensing cost differences between Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio. That may be a factor why Fox is going exclusively with DTS on its Blu-ray releases.
Whether anyone likes it or not, there is a certain positive halo factor regarding DTS and its relationship to Dolby as a rival. Dolby has long had a history of providing only what's "good enough" to the general public. That attitude is literally what allowed DTS to get its start.
In the early 1990s Dolby only saw Dolby Digital 5.1 on 35mm film prints as an item meant for the largest flagship movie theaters in big cities to replace 70mm projection systems. The best movie theaters would get Dolby Digital in a system topping $20,000. Everybody else can just deal with Dolby SR optical. Steven Spielberg endorsed the DTS system and positioned its debut with Jurassic Park. The DTS systems were introduced for $3500 and $2500 for 6-channel and 4-channel systems respectively. DTS started out with the notion that any movie theater should have 5.1 channel surround. Over 800 movie theaters unveiled Jurassic Park in DTS, most of them playing the movie in the 6-channel version. Dolby was caught way off guard and spent the rest of the 1990s playing catch-up.
Those early days of DTS in movie theaters, the system on Laserdisc and its fight to get onto DVD did much to build up the company's fan base. Any notions of Dolby having the digital surround sound market entirely to itself were rendered moot with its very conservative missteps in the early 1990s. They opened the door for DTS and that company has held on ever since.
I could go farther to suggest that if DTS (and SDDS) hadn't posed an alternative to Dolby Digital the situation with audio on DVD, Blu-ray and even in Digital Cinema would probably be very different -in a worse way. The same low 320kb/s bit rate used on 35mm film prints may have just been seen as "good enough" if there weren't any higher bit rate competitors. Different fans talked a lot about bit rates and the ultimate limitations of data lossy compression formats. We can thank the format war in movie theaters, on Laserdisc and on DVD for paving the way for lossless and uncompressed surround audio on Blu-ray.
That doesn't relieve any criticism from DTS for the many various modes of how it could be authored onto Blu-ray -which led to certain 7.1 imaging problems with PS3 consoles. But those problems have been fixed. The DTS-HD internal decoder for PS3 has been updated twice since it was first introduced a few months ago.
I also don't think it is crucial for every standalone Blu-ray player to be able to internally decode DTS-HD Master Audio and output it via analog. There's at least a dozen or more standalone BD players on the market that can do it. The Sony BDP-550 will be one of the latest (and most afforadable). Panasonic has players that can do the same and output analog 7.1.
Honestly, any hardcore surround sound fan is going to have a receiver or surround controller with next gen decoding of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD. The PS3 has been hit with more criticism of not being able to bitstream output Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD bitstreams. Its internal decoding capability of those formats (along with 7.1 channel LPCM HDMI output) doesn't seem to satisfy the loudest critics. The folks who don't regard sound as a huge deal may just be happy playing the "lossy core" audio from DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD tracks.
Whether anyone likes it or not, there is a certain positive halo factor regarding DTS and its relationship to Dolby as a rival. Dolby has long had a history of providing only what's "good enough" to the general public. That attitude is literally what allowed DTS to get its start.
In the early 1990s Dolby only saw Dolby Digital 5.1 on 35mm film prints as an item meant for the largest flagship movie theaters in big cities to replace 70mm projection systems. The best movie theaters would get Dolby Digital in a system topping $20,000. Everybody else can just deal with Dolby SR optical. Steven Spielberg endorsed the DTS system and positioned its debut with Jurassic Park. The DTS systems were introduced for $3500 and $2500 for 6-channel and 4-channel systems respectively. DTS started out with the notion that any movie theater should have 5.1 channel surround. Over 800 movie theaters unveiled Jurassic Park in DTS, most of them playing the movie in the 6-channel version. Dolby was caught way off guard and spent the rest of the 1990s playing catch-up.
Those early days of DTS in movie theaters, the system on Laserdisc and its fight to get onto DVD did much to build up the company's fan base. Any notions of Dolby having the digital surround sound market entirely to itself were rendered moot with its very conservative missteps in the early 1990s. They opened the door for DTS and that company has held on ever since.
I could go farther to suggest that if DTS (and SDDS) hadn't posed an alternative to Dolby Digital the situation with audio on DVD, Blu-ray and even in Digital Cinema would probably be very different -in a worse way. The same low 320kb/s bit rate used on 35mm film prints may have just been seen as "good enough" if there weren't any higher bit rate competitors. Different fans talked a lot about bit rates and the ultimate limitations of data lossy compression formats. We can thank the format war in movie theaters, on Laserdisc and on DVD for paving the way for lossless and uncompressed surround audio on Blu-ray.
That doesn't relieve any criticism from DTS for the many various modes of how it could be authored onto Blu-ray -which led to certain 7.1 imaging problems with PS3 consoles. But those problems have been fixed. The DTS-HD internal decoder for PS3 has been updated twice since it was first introduced a few months ago.
I also don't think it is crucial for every standalone Blu-ray player to be able to internally decode DTS-HD Master Audio and output it via analog. There's at least a dozen or more standalone BD players on the market that can do it. The Sony BDP-550 will be one of the latest (and most afforadable). Panasonic has players that can do the same and output analog 7.1.
Honestly, any hardcore surround sound fan is going to have a receiver or surround controller with next gen decoding of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD. The PS3 has been hit with more criticism of not being able to bitstream output Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD bitstreams. Its internal decoding capability of those formats (along with 7.1 channel LPCM HDMI output) doesn't seem to satisfy the loudest critics. The folks who don't regard sound as a huge deal may just be happy playing the "lossy core" audio from DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD tracks.
PS3 uses software emulation for DTS Master. Nothing wrong with that. However, there are not anywhere close to 12 or more players that will internally decode DTS Master currently on the market, there are 4 counting the PS3. There are a few coming down the pipeline to get close, but this is over two years since inception. There is the PS3, BD50, Sony550, BD50, BD35, BD55, Marantz, and Denon. That's 8 that for sure decode. Pioneer still has not delivered on their promise of internal decoding, and they're into their third generation. No telling what the Samsu** will do since they are in my POS category of BD players. If they and Pioneer deliver on their promise that will be 11.
I agree that internal decoding is not necessary in all players. However, many of the hardcore audio freaks, as you call us, are the ones that are not going out and replacing our expensive processors. Denon, onkyo, yamaha usually don't fall into the hardcore group, even though there's nothing wrong with them and they deliver a nice HT experience. I still have my 4806CI, but I'm not replacing that either. For us, internal decoding at this point in the game is mandatory and has not been delivered on.
We are all aware of DTS history, and it is irrelevant at this point in the game. They have not delivered and have caused more frustration and harm than they have good in the HDM world.
Anyways, this thread is about Hardware deals. Let's get back on topic. If you want to continue to talk about DTS, feel free to open a new thread. There are many of us hardcore individuals here who will chime in and a lot of average HT users who will chime in also, especially with their displeasure towards DTS as a company and their failure to deliver for both HDDVD and BD.
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teachsac said:
There is very little need for that capability at all.
Any serious surround sound nut is going to have a dedicated AV receiver or surround controller with built-in Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio decoding. They're only going to be interested in the bit stream output capability.
Playstation 3 is really the only device that truly needs the internal decoding capability for Dolby TrueHD and DTS/DTS-HD.
To add a little perspective on this, the first DVD player I bought back in 1999 had built-in Dolby Digital 5.1 decoding and analog 5.1 output. I spent extra for this feature, but it turned out to be a feature I would never ever use at all. It was a feature designed for obsolete AV receivers or very cheap entry-level AV receivers. Look at most DVD players today. They're cheap. They have very limited options of audio and video signal output. There's really no need for a DVD player with 5.1 analog output and built in full decoding of DD and DTS because most surround sound geeks already have receivers or HTIB systems to do that job.
Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio are both formats not meant at all for entry level equipment. Anyone wanting a $300 home theater in a box set up will simply not hear much of any difference at all between playing something in lossless format and the old lossy formats common to DVD and HDTV.
With my situation, I don't really need a AV receiver with built-in Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD decoding since my PS3 already does that job. But I'm going to buy one anyway because the receivers with that extra capability usually have a lot of other improved capabilities as well. And the PS3 is not the only Blu-ray player I'll ever own.
teachsac said:
Honestly, I am very suspicious of any "affordable" movie disc player doing its own surround sound decoding and analog output. I'll also throw in the fact PS3 is a different animal since it is really a device costing $700 or more based on its computing hardware and performance -Sony takes a big loss on every PS3 it sells. PS3 may use emulation (and then again it may not) to decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD audio. But it is a far more powerful computing device than any other Blu-ray player on the market. Those other devices just do not compare.
Perhaps if you buy some $2000 device with top of the line D/A converters and all sorts of other cost is no object gear it may be worth it to have the player do the audio decoding itself. I'm of the mindset that it is best to keep the audio in the digital realm as long as possible, right to the point before it is amplified and sent out to the speakers.
Too often in player decoding and analog output equals additional analog to digital conversions and more digital to analog conversions before the signal is amplified. That translates to generational loss and garbage audio quality.
teachsac said:
I disagree. DTS' history is 100% relevant. It figures in on why studios like Fox and Universal are using DTS exclusively on all their Blu-ray releases.
Like it or not, a lot of this stuff is about brand worship. Right now, you're sounding an awful lot like any hardcore Dolby fan and bringing up stuff I've argued about 10 years ago. DTS is not going away. It's time to accept that bitter truth.
Not even close. I have no brand loyalty to DTS, Dolby, SDDS, or any other sound format. This is simply what I do for a living. Noone knows why Fox and Universal chose DTS Master over Dolby TrueHD. They were not ready to be a prime time player in HDM. It took until Gen2 in either format to even be able to bitstream and around two years to come up with any player that could even do internal decoding.
I don't even know where to begin with this statement. Many of us that are "serious" HT/Music enthusiasts don't use Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, etc. receivers. We are the ones that use Lexicon, Krell, Classe, etc processors. Use monoblock amps, etc. We are not going to go out and spend another 10-30K for a processor. DTS's strategy was for users to purchase new receivers and the high-end CE manufacturers and consumers balked at them for over two years and finally players started showing up from none other than the high-end market of Denon and Marantz not the low-end.
There are just as many, if not more, on the lower end of the spectrum who are not going to go out and purchase a new receiver, either. Just look at some of the posters around here, AVS, etc. Does having a receiver that doesn't decode lossless codecs make them any less of a HT enthusiast than you or me? Absolutely not. Panasonic and Sony are going to fill that market nicely.
While bitstreaming is fine, and I have players that bitstreams, it is imperative to have players internally decode. It should have happened well before two years into the formats.
Now, please take it back on topic. If you want to continue talking about DTS open a new thread. I'm sure many others will comment and complain also. I know nonrev will pop in with the necessity to internally decode. He's got his CNET quote on his clipboard ready to post.
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SOny offering $150 credit off first purchase using their SOny Card. That means you can get the S550 (decodes all) for 249 or the S350 (bitstreams all) for 149.
Blu-ray Disc Players | Sony | SonyStyle USA
Can't beat that.
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Blu-ray Disc Players | Sony | SonyStyle USA
Can't beat that.
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Looks like a good offer and one I might take. But when I read the "fine print", it appears the $150 credit won't appear for 8-12 weeks after the qualifying purchase is made. The 0% interest applies only for purchases over $299. How is that calculated, against the total price or the eventual price after the $150 credit? It makes a big difference to me.
So one small detail not to be overlooked is that if you want to have an interest-free purchase (and that's the ONLY way I will use any form of "credit") then you MIGHT need to pony-up the entire price of the player of choice when your bill comes due. You'll receive the $150 card credit eventually, but in my case that would only be useful for a future purchase and at this point I'm not sure there would ever be one, at least not directly to Sony. For someone not adverse to paying less than the full payment(s) due (and hence interest as well) for the time it takes for the credit to appear, then it's probably a great deal to have that $150 ultimately offset the price of the player.
I guess I have to weigh those "values" of mine (debt free and completely interest adverse) against the great price.
So one small detail not to be overlooked is that if you want to have an interest-free purchase (and that's the ONLY way I will use any form of "credit") then you MIGHT need to pony-up the entire price of the player of choice when your bill comes due. You'll receive the $150 card credit eventually, but in my case that would only be useful for a future purchase and at this point I'm not sure there would ever be one, at least not directly to Sony. For someone not adverse to paying less than the full payment(s) due (and hence interest as well) for the time it takes for the credit to appear, then it's probably a great deal to have that $150 ultimately offset the price of the player.
I guess I have to weigh those "values" of mine (debt free and completely interest adverse) against the great price.
I think you have it analyzed correctly. I have the same issue with BB cards and the like as it is a way to get you back in the store. Especially true for open box items, where invariably something is missing.
I have totally given up on rebates as a consideration. I only end up submitting 1/2 to 2/3 of them, and half of those are returned as "not qualified", requiring yet further effort. Thus my rebate is about 1/4 of what is promised.
These days, I am only looking at $$ spent out the door. Everything else is found money and doesn't count.
Pulled the trigger on a BDP-S550 with the $150 credit !!
Title says it all. The Sony CC set-up took all of about 2 minutes to apply and approve - painless (assuming it's secure!). Then the order took about the same time. Shipping is included but they did tack on 6% sales tax on the full $399.99 amount for a grand total of $423.99. That's steep, but once the $150 credit is applied then it becomes a very reasonable ~$274 for that player, very close to the ~$250 trigger point I mentioned in other posts. Talk about "Blue Light" specials...!
It appears that this one also counts for the 0% interest promotion; if true then there will be no interest paid while waiting for the credit to appear on my card.
The unit should ship tomorrow and I would expect to see it early next week. The deal includes one Discovery Channel disk by mail. I'll start shopping on line for more!
When the bill arrives, I'll pay at least the ~$274 I expect to ultimately owe and wait for the credit to hopefully offset the entire balance. Worst case I might get hit for the interest on the full amount for 2 months, less than $5 by my calculations.
Tks teachsac for the lead, and others for the encouragement...! I'll be in the (blue) light soon...!
UPDATE: Got the confirmation this AM that the unit shipped on the 8th. So I might even have it by tomorrow! Getting really anxious...!
Title says it all. The Sony CC set-up took all of about 2 minutes to apply and approve - painless (assuming it's secure!). Then the order took about the same time. Shipping is included but they did tack on 6% sales tax on the full $399.99 amount for a grand total of $423.99. That's steep, but once the $150 credit is applied then it becomes a very reasonable ~$274 for that player, very close to the ~$250 trigger point I mentioned in other posts. Talk about "Blue Light" specials...!
It appears that this one also counts for the 0% interest promotion; if true then there will be no interest paid while waiting for the credit to appear on my card.
The unit should ship tomorrow and I would expect to see it early next week. The deal includes one Discovery Channel disk by mail. I'll start shopping on line for more!
When the bill arrives, I'll pay at least the ~$274 I expect to ultimately owe and wait for the credit to hopefully offset the entire balance. Worst case I might get hit for the interest on the full amount for 2 months, less than $5 by my calculations.
Tks teachsac for the lead, and others for the encouragement...! I'll be in the (blue) light soon...!
UPDATE: Got the confirmation this AM that the unit shipped on the 8th. So I might even have it by tomorrow! Getting really anxious...!
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