Detroit Tigers 2008

[Jimbo]

The key is that these last few years, "D-Train" has showed signs of recession, all the while pitching in a less offensive National League. Plus, Dontrelle Willis has been a mess this spring! There is nothing in his game showing any sort of improvement either. 17 hits and 11 walks in 13 2/3 innings. Coming off a 10-15 season and 5.17 ERA in Florida, there is reason to worry.

Let's take a look at the rest of your starting staff....

Will Kenny Rogers hold up for an entire year at the age of 43? He made only 11 starts last season. Tough call for an ol' timer.

Jeremy Bonderman has a great arm, but a career 56-52 record and an uninspiring 4.78 ERA. Average at best.

Nate Robertson is 30 years old. Last year, he was 9-13 with a 4.76 ERA. His career mark is 42-55 with a 4.60 ERA.

Justin Verlander (18-6, 3.66) is your version of Fausto Carmona. "V" is the only threatening pitcher on your staff.

As for the bullpen. Two key relievers: Joel Zumaya and Fernando Rodney are out indefinitely with arm problems. Rodney is 5-9 with a 4.56 since June 2006. The bullpen is being built around Tim Byrdak, Bobby Seay, Jason Grilli, Denny Bautista (4-10, 6.93 ERA in his major-league career) and Todd Jones. Bottom line: it's thin.

A year ago, the Tigers ranked ninth in ERA, ninth in innings pitched by their starters. The Indians were No. 3 in ERA, No. 1 in starters ERA and starters innings. That means the Indians stayed out of the bullpen longer.

So to conclude, we've all agreed that great pitching outperforms great hitting.

Advantage: Cleveland

[/B]
You hold on to those thoughts. Meanwhile let me give you another view - where was your pitching two seasons ago? I know who had pitching in 2006, - The Tigers. Pitching changes in a minute, a couple of injuries such as we had last season changed everything. First off your starters have nothing on our rotation, and we almost beat you guys last season with half of our complete staff on the injured reserve. I told you before, the only area your team has Detroit beat, is in the bullpen. You can't hit with us, and I'll call the starting rotations a wash. If both teams stay healthy, the hitting will be the difference, and we have it.

I would not say Cleveland's Starters are that much better than Detroit's.
They both have top notch pitchers at the top, but when you go down farther into the list , neither is that great. Better than Yankees and Bostons I think .... Yankees for sure.

As Paul has mentioned, PITCHING was our game two years ago....

As for Dontrelle, pretty DAMN good for your NUMBER 5 starter, I'll take him over your #3,4 and 5 STARTERS.

Jimbo

 

[jcrandall]

Just an FYI, Tigers just announced the finalization of the Cabrera deal.

8 more years total

 

[HD MM]

Did ANYONE on this board say that Detroit's Pitching at this point was better than Cleveland's ?
Jimbo

Yeah.......

[/b]
You hold on to those thoughts. Meanwhile let me give you another view - where was your pitching two seasons ago? I know who had pitching in 2006, - The Tigers. Pitching changes in a minute, a couple of injuries such as we had last season changed everything. First off your starters have nothing on our rotation, and we almost beat you guys last season with half of our complete staff on the injured reserve. I told you before, the only area your team has Detroit beat, is in the bullpen. You can't hit with us, and I'll call the starting rotations a wash. If both teams stay healthy, the hitting will be the difference, and we have it.

 

[HD MM]

I would not say Cleveland's Starters are that much better than Detroit's.
They both have top notch pitchers at the top, but when you go down farther into the list , neither is that great. Better than Yankees and Bostons I think .... Yankees for sure.

As Paul has mentioned, PITCHING was our game two years ago....

As for Dontrelle, pretty DAMN good for your NUMBER 5 starter, I'll take him over your #3,4 and 5 STARTERS.

Jimbo

Are you kidding me? I didn't even think there was a debate that the Indian's have the superior pitching staff! Let's review for those of you who are unfamiliar with C-Town's flame throwers......

SP's- (Best 5 man rotation in the bigs IMO)
CC Sabathia- 3.21 ERA, 19W- 7L, ’07 Cy Young Winner
Fausto Camona- 3.06 ERA, 19W- 8L in '07
Jake Wesbrook- Career 4.35 ERA, Averaged 15 Wins from 2004-2006, Injured for most of ‘07. Never regained form until late in the season.
Paul Byrd- Career 4.35 ERA, Has averaged 13 wins in the last 5 years.
Cliff Lee- Career 4.64 ERA, Has averaged 15 wins from 2004-2006, Injured in '07 and never fully regained typical form in '07. Has been impressive so far in '08 spring training.

RP’s- (Downright filthy!)
Rafael Perez- 1.78 ERA
Rafael Betancourt- 1.48 ERA

Closer- (Saves is all that matter in closing stats)
Joe Borowski- Lead the AL in ’07 with 45 saves.

 

[salsadancer7]

Well, apparently, "D-Train" is still trying to "put it all together". From the Game Summary on DetroitTigers.com of the last game D-Willey pitched. (March 21st)........

"Dontrelle Willis was pulled with one out in the fourth inning after allowing four runs on seven hits and four walks. Willis, who struck out one, has a 5.93 ERA on the spring."

And 3 of your projected starters have an ERA in the same neighborhood(Byrd 5.79, Carmona 5.19 and Sabathia 5.00) and one has an era almost twice as bad as Willis(Lee 8.31). The ONLY starter in the spring that is doing well is Jake Westbrook. So they TOO must be "trying to put it together" huh?

The 'homer' in you seems to not see that Willis was playing on a team the last two years that was nowhere near as good as the Indians teams of the last two years.

 

[HD MM]

And 3 of your projected starters have an ERA in the same neighborhood(Byrd 5.79, Carmona 5.19 and Sabathia 5.00) and one has an era almost twice as bad as Willis(Lee 8.31). The ONLY starter in the spring that is doing well is Jake Westbrook. So they TOO must be "trying to put it together" huh?

The 'homer' in you seems to not see that Willis was playing on a team the last two years that was nowhere near as good as the Indians teams of the last two years.

I guess I'm not understanding how which team a pitcher is on effects how he performs statistically? Was he not motivated to do better? The way I see it is that pitchers tend to actually do better in the NL than the AL since they face a weaker offensive lineup on a daily basis. They also don't have to face a DH. So why, now that he's with a better team, will Willis automatically be revived?

 

[HD MM]

And 3 of your projected starters have an ERA in the same neighborhood(Byrd 5.79, Carmona 5.19 and Sabathia 5.00) and one has an era almost twice as bad as Willis(Lee 8.31). The ONLY starter in the spring that is doing well is Jake Westbrook. So they TOO must be "trying to put it together" huh?

The 'homer' in you seems to not see that Willis was playing on a team the last two years that was nowhere near as good as the Indians teams of the last two years.

Look, we all know Spring Training is meaningless, especially for pitching statistics. The only useful way of predicting trends that will carry over to the regular season is by tracking their progress. I was simply noting that Willis is not showing any signs of improvement, even towards the end of the Spring season. Not to worry though. All of this talk will be meaningless if Willis proves me wrong in the regular season.

 

[salsadancer7]

I guess I'm not understanding how which team a pitcher is on effects how he performs statistically? Was he not motivated to do better? The way I see it is that pitchers tend to actually do better in the NL than the AL since they face a weaker offensive lineup on a daily basis. They also don't have to face a DH. So why, now that he's with a better team, will Willis automatically be revived?

Because A) He will be playing with a better team, B) New league where they do not know him as well. And C) A better, MORE experienced catcher that has been known to be a pretty good handler of pitchers.

 

[HD MM]

Because A) He will be playing with a better team, B) New league where they do not know him as well. And C) A better, MORE experienced catcher that has been known to be a pretty good handler of pitchers.

You still haven't answered my question. What does a being on a better team have to do with a pitching performance? Pitching is a 1 on 1 match up between the thrower and the batter. (With the catcher calling the signs).

 

[salsadancer7]

You still haven't answered my question. What does a being on a better team have to do with a pitching performance? Pitching is a 1 on 1 match up between the thrower and the batter. (With the catcher calling the signs).

Dude, is your view of baseball is strictly numbers??!! I think you have been playing fantasy baseball way too long/too much. Pitching is NOT a one-on-one match-up...IT THAT is what you think, why have the other 8 players...??!! Ok...by playing on a better team...instead of being 10-16 with an ERA around 3.50....more than likely your 17-11 with the same ERA. So, which stat would YOU have? And it's all in the pitcher psyche as far as the team he has backing him up.

 

[Jimbo]

I guess I'm not understanding how which team a pitcher is on effects how he performs statistically? Was he not motivated to do better? The way I see it is that pitchers tend to actually do better in the NL than the AL since they face a weaker offensive lineup on a daily basis. They also don't have to face a DH. So why, now that he's with a better team, will Willis automatically be revived?

You've got to be kidding ... right ?

Jimbo

 

[Jimbo]

I guess I'm not understanding how which team a pitcher is on effects how he performs statistically? Was he not motivated to do better? The way I see it is that pitchers tend to actually do better in the NL than the AL since they face a weaker offensive lineup on a daily basis. They also don't have to face a DH. So why, now that he's with a better team, will Willis automatically be revived?

Ever heard of a Defense that Florida did not have ?

OK, let for a minute , put Sabathia and Carmona on the Marlins team.
Does Sabathia have the stats he did last year ?
Hardly, btw, he would not even have been in the conversation for the Cy Young if that were the situation.

Your also forgetting that Verlander was also in the CY conversation last year.

Jimbo

 

[salsadancer7]

Ever heard of a Defense that Florida did not have ?

OK, let for a minute , put Sabathia and Carmona on the Marlins team.
Does Sabathia have the stats he did last year ?
Hardly, btw, he would not even have been in the conversation for the Cy Young if that were the situation.

Your also forgetting that Verlander was also in the CY conversation last year.

Jimbo

AND the Marlins played in a "pitcher park"....LOL

 

[Jimbo]

AND the Marlins played in a "pitcher park"....LOL

That said, He got hit hard again yesterday ...

I can see HM jumping on him thruout the season if he doesn't turn it around.

Curious, why is HM so interested in Willis, he doesn't pitch for his team.

How good are Cleveland's number 4 & 5 starters ?

Jimbo

 

[salsadancer7]

That said, He got hit hard again yesterday ...

I can see HM jumping on him thruout the season if he doesn't turn it around.

Curious, why is HM so interested in Willis, he doesn't pitch for his team.

How good are Cleveland's number 4 & 5 starters ?

Jimbo

The probably have one of the better starting rotations in the American League...and very underated in my opinion. But its all a matter of staying heathly.

 

[HD MM]

That said, He got hit hard again yesterday ...

I can see HM jumping on him thruout the season if he doesn't turn it around.

Curious, why is HM so interested in Willis, he doesn't pitch for his team.

How good are Cleveland's number 4 & 5 starters ?

Jimbo

See this: POST on how good our 4 & 5 starters are. This also provides my conclusion of how they're superior to Willis and the rest of Detroit's staff.

And don't worry, I won't be on him the entire season if Willis "doesn't turn it around." I was just giving evidence on how I think his career is regressing and how he actually is NOT better than our #3, #4 or #5 like you said earlier.....

That said, He got hit hard again yesterday ...

I can see HM jumping on him thruout the season if he doesn't turn it around.

Curious, why is HM so interested in Willis, he doesn't pitch for his team.

How good are Cleveland's number 4 & 5 starters ?

Jimbo

Possibly because of your previous quote:

I would not say Cleveland's Starters are that much better than Detroit's.
They both have top notch pitchers at the top, but when you go down farther into the list , neither is that great. Better than Yankees and Bostons I think .... Yankees for sure.

As Paul has mentioned, PITCHING was our game two years ago....

As for Dontrelle, pretty DAMN good for your NUMBER 5 starter, I'll take him over your #3,4 and 5 STARTERS.

Jimbo

Of course, all of this discussion began with me giving my preseason prediction that the Tribe would win the AL Central over Detroit in '08 and the sole reason was our edge in pitching.

 

[HD MM]

Ever heard of a Defense that Florida did not have ?

OK, let for a minute , put Sabathia and Carmona on the Marlins team.
Does Sabathia have the stats he did last year ?
Hardly, btw, he would not even have been in the conversation for the Cy Young if that were the situation.

Your also forgetting that Verlander was also in the CY conversation last year.

Jimbo

In my defense we all know that wins and losses are the ultimately the only thing that should matter, but ERA is also often used to judge pitchers. If an error occurs due to a shoddy defense, then the pitcher isn't penalized, instead it's counted as an unearned run.

So by putting a good pitcher on a bad team, in reality may result in less wins, but not a significant less ERA.

 

[FlyingJ]

Over a hundred posts on a thread titled Detroit Tigers. Okay, I'm sick of it all and low and behold my Phillies are hooking up with the Kittys today, its even on the tube! I know, I know its only preseason...yada yada yada, but I have nothing else to get excited about today so I had to manufacture something in my head....here it is. Get ready to get smoked Master Deals, Salsa and the rest of you, you, well...you Detroiters. Ryan, Chase, Pat The Bat, JRoll and the boys are gonna put a hurtin on you! Oh oh, I see Eaton is pitching.....well no time to backtrack now! Go Phills!!

 

[Paul Wozniak]

Over a hundred posts on a thread titled Detroit Tigers. Okay, I'm sick of it all and low and behold my Phillies are hooking up with the Kittys today, its even on the tube! I know, I know its only preseason...yada yada yada, but I have nothing else to get excited about today so I had to manufacture something in my head....here it is. Get ready to get smoked Master Deals, Salsa and the rest of you, you, well...you Detroiters. Ryan, Chase, Pat The Bat, JRoll and the boys are gonna put a hurtin on you! Oh oh, I see Eaton is pitching.....well no time to backtrack now! Go Phills!!

Not that it means anything....Funny post. There's a lot of Tiger fans, and central division interest here. You could try starting a Phillies thread, but you're the only Phillies fan here.

 

[FlyingJ]

Not that it means anything....Funny post.

Oh heck Paul, just be glad that the Phils aren't hooking up with the Tribe today! All my pent up, imaginary fight would be directed at you!!!