I want to add Ku Band to my Cband Dish.

Proof Of Concept today! Ku Band Side Car on a C Band dish for under $30. I have been wanting to try this for some time, and today i finally did it. Thanks to LEEHRAT and arlo for the inspiration, advice, and the pictures. I am using a 10 Ft Winegard Pinnacle BUD and an Amiko Mini HD265 FTA Receiver. For the Sidecar Ku LNBF i am using a GeosatPRO SL1PLL as recommended, and IT IS WORKING! Also using a Universal Single LNB Bracket for the Mount. So far tonight i have scanned in all the Channels on Galaxy 19 97.0W Ku and also scanned in channels on Galaxy 16 99.0W. So i am tracking the ARC, but I am not 100% dialed in yet. A HUGE problem is that the dish is way higher than my ladder can handle at True South (83.0W) so my minor adjustments are difficult and time consuming to do. I am 6 Ft tall and standing on my 6 Ft ladder i can not reach it. So I have to move the dish all the way East to work on the LNBF, make adjustments etc..., then move it back West again to check my results.

I KNOW my Ku LNBF is pointing way too far out from center. From reading this thread i realized you dont want to point it right to center on a dish like this with a Button Hook with a Center Plate in the middle. I started like that and i could find no signal whatsoever. So i moved the angle of the KU LNBF out from center to illuminate a larger circle on the mesh and Bam - i got signal! But i moved it to far out from center. To put it into perspective 97 W C Band for me is at count 886 on my dish mover. For Ku Band on 97W with this set-up its at 963. That is where 89.0W would be on C Band for me. So i think maybe i can move it in for a better signal. But not tonight, i am tired and satisfied with my results for now. So lots of work to do but i can say this works, and i am very excited to get it dialed in. I will update as i go.
 

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I spent hours one afternoon trying to add Ku sidecar to my 10 dish and it never performed as well as my 1M Ku dish.
 
Proof Of Concept today! Ku Band Side Car on a C Band dish for under $30. I have been wanting to try this for some time, and today i finally did it. Thanks to LEEHRAT and arlo for the inspiration, advice, and the pictures. I am using a 10 Ft Winegard Pinnacle BUD and an Amiko Mini HD265 FTA Receiver. For the Sidecar Ku LNBF i am using a GeosatPRO SL1PLL as recommended, and IT IS WORKING! Also using a Universal Single LNB Bracket for the Mount. So far tonight i have scanned in all the Channels on Galaxy 19 97.0W Ku and also scanned in channels on Galaxy 16 99.0W. So i am tracking the ARC, but I am not 100% dialed in yet. A HUGE problem is that the dish is way higher than my ladder can handle at True South (83.0W) so my minor adjustments are difficult and time consuming to do. I am 6 Ft tall and standing on my 6 Ft ladder i can not reach it. So I have to move the dish all the way East to work on the LNBF, make adjustments etc..., then move it back West again to check my results.

I KNOW my Ku LNBF is pointing way too far out from center. From reading this thread i realized you dont want to point it right to center on a dish like this with a Button Hook with a Center Plate in the middle. I started like that and i could find no signal whatsoever. So i moved the angle of the KU LNBF out from center to illuminate a larger circle on the mesh and Bam - i got signal! But i moved it to far out from center. To put it into perspective 97 W C Band for me is at count 886 on my dish mover. For Ku Band on 97W with this set-up its at 963. That is where 89.0W would be on C Band for me. So i think maybe i can move it in for a better signal. But not tonight, i am tired and satisfied with my results for now. So lots of work to do but i can say this works, and i am very excited to get it dialed in. I will update as i go.
Hyper,

Glad to read you're making progress.
I attached a sidecar to my 8 foot solid dish several years ago and it's performing very well.
At Titanium's suggestion, I used a pipe hanger, slightly modified to attach my kU lnb, with great results. Most of the signals on 97w for example, come in slightly above 12dB.

John
 
I spent hours one afternoon trying to add Ku sidecar to my 10 dish and it never performed as well as my 1M Ku dish.

This would be consistent with the data in my attachments earlier in the thread. A 3 m reflector should have about +49 dB of gain at Ku. A 1 m reflector should be in the +38 to +39 range. I would think at least -10 dB down from the peak by being off the boresight should be expected.

Everyone else's mileage may vary.
 
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cheapest way it sidecar your ku lnb....iget the same strenth as i did on my 48 inch ku dish. 3 pictures attached
I tried the exact same setup in my 10ft mesh C band dish. Added a KU- side LNB.
No luck catching any signal. I cathched ~40% signal quality only if I keep the KU lnb directly under the C band LNBf.

Do you catch the same satellite in both C band and Ku band?
 
I tried the exact same setup in my 10ft mesh C band dish. Added a KU- side LNB.
No luck catching any signal. I cathched ~40% signal quality only if I keep the KU lnb directly under the C band LNBf.

Do you catch the same satellite in both C band and Ku band?
not simultaneously... since the Ku LNBF is mounted to the side, its aim will be different than for C-band. Usually the difference is about 6-8 degrees depending on the dish size and C-band scalar diameter.

What is absolutely critical is that the Ku LNBF and teh C-Band LNB feed be in the same plane that is perpendicular to the polar axis of the dish mount. Also it should be fine tuned (it's very sensitive to misalignment)

on my 10ft dish it works pretty well.
 
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"A Ku LNBF offset on a 10' prime focus antenna performs like a dedicated 4'" statement starts to make a bunch of sense.

That is mainly because of the not-matching opening angle of the Ku-LNB, as compared to the f/D of the PF dish, I would think.

As I wrote:
Reduced illumination: agreed.
Illumination angle of a normal Ku LNBf for an offset dish would be about 75 degrees (based on e.g. the Triax 115 dish), I guess, so equivalent to an f/D of about 0.75.
Compare it to the f/D of the PF dish, and you can calculate what diameter of the dish is "seen" by the LNB.
Numerical example:
When you have a PF dish with f/D=0.31 (width=100, depth=20), and LNB feedhorn with f/D-equivalent of 0.75:
Effective.diameter = ( Diameter.of.PF.dish * 0.31 ) / 0.75 .

Outcome = Diameter.of.PF.dish * .41,
so just over 40% of the width of the PF dish.

So that example value matches your value, in the quote above.




I am afraid I cannot follow the rest of your post, and I'm not sure what all these 2 degree compliance documents have to do with multifeed effectiveness?
The documents seem to have to do with beamwidth, sidelobes, and interference from neighboring satellites. I didn't find anything about multifeed, by superficial reading?



With my link above of the Triax dish, I came to 1 dB loss for a 10 degree off-axis-mounted LNB.
I believe that is congruent to the practical experience by users of multifeed setups.


But in this topic/post you write:
www.satelliteguys.us/xen/threads/comments-from-a-newbie-to-fta.413883/page-15#post-5017868
Being off-axis on a 10-footer for Ku will have a steep penalty in terms of gain, necessarily in order to be 2-degree compliant.
And also above you write about -10 dB:
I would think at least -10 dB down from the peak by being off the boresight should be expected.

Just from being off-axis I cannot imagine such a steep penalty.
The only thing I can think of that would cause a steep penalty in gain, is aiming an LNB not at the satellite, but at an angle left or right (off-axis) from a satellite. But that is not what is done, with a multifeed setup.

However, it can be confusing, when it is not clear whether the terms "off-axis" or "boresight" in case of a multifeed setup, are defined relative to the dish's axis, or relative to the aiming direction ("axis") towards the satellite.


So, am I missing something?
If yes, what am I missing?


Greetz,
A33

Edited.
 
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A33, thank you for the reply.

The data in the PDFs illustrate both the ITU and NTIA requirements from four decades ago for antenna designs to be able to select satellites spaced at 2 degree separation. This is in order to receive a signal without co-channel interference from an adjacent satellite, but more specifically to allow an antenna to transmit and not cause interference to other users. In RF theory, this is reciprocity. For the same frequency, an antenna's performance for RX and TX should be the same on paper and very close in reality. The roll-off graphs show the maximum signal strength allowed in order to maintain 2-degree compliance. The graphs start at 1 degree off the boresight. This is important because 1 degree to the left and 1 to the right is 2 degrees (a.k.a. starting at 1 degree on the graph is not arbitrary or "magic").

For a 3.0 m reflector, the gain is roughly +40 dB for C and +49 dB for Ku. The -3 dB beam widths are 1.75 and 0.55 degrees, respectively. At that beam width, you have lost half of your signal strength. The ITU/NTIA calcs are based upon ratios of diameter and the signal wavelength in use. For our purposes, to hit the 2-degree requirements, the resulting equation is "29 - 25*log(theta)". The equation can vary based on a couple of factors, but we will use this to ilustrate the point. Even if we used "32-25*log(theta)", the results are still range-bound.

For Ku, if the gain is +49 and the beamwidth is 0.55, then at 0.55 degrees off the boresight, the gain is +46. From the equation, at 1 degree off the boresight, the maximum gain allowed in order to be 2-degree compliant is "29 - 25*log(1)". The log of 1 is zero, therefore the max gain is 29 dB. As a result, we essentially have a -3 dB drop in the first half of a degree and another -20 dB drop in signal strength in the next 0.5 degrees. That is 1/100th the signal strength when you are 1 degree off the boresight. That is the signal falling off of a cliff. Even a 0.7 m elliptical is still around +37. At this point, if the anecdotes are that adjusting the focal length positioning of a C or Ku LNB can tweak the signal strength 1 or 2 dB, those values are rounding errors when compared to the roll-off values.

We have very differing commentary throughout the years on this site and others about the performance of Ku side car LNBs. There are some talented people who can make it work and there are some talented people who cannot make it work. Skills being considered equal, the only logical explanation to me is that some people have 2-degree compliant reflectors and some do not. I will suggest those who cannot make the side car work probably have compliant antenna systems, while those can make it work do not have compliant reflectors. If we take the anecdotal "it makes a 10-foot dish perform like a 4-footer", that means the effective gain needs to be around +40. If the side car is located 6 inches off the boresight on a reflector with a 48 inch depth, this corresponds to arctan(6/48) = 7.1 degrees. At 7.1 degrees, the maximum compliant gain is 29 - 25*log(7.1) = +7.7 dB. This is approximately -41 dB lower than than the peak, essentially 1/10000th the signal level. This is how antenna systems designed to the 2-degree criteria can discriminate between adjacent satellites. The roll-off has to be that steep.

For your Triax, I will assert that the mechanical equation and associated physical design of the reflector has multiple focal points that where the signal intensity is such that a lock is achievable. For me, it reasonably follows that the reflector design cannot be 2-degree compliant. If the roll-off graphs were followed, you wouldn't be able to lock on those adjacent satellite positions. I can play side car games with stamped 1.0 m metal reflectors that are a bit more challenging with my 1.0 m fiberglass Channel Master that are almost impossible with my 1.2 m TX-compliant Prodelin VSAT reflectors. I am willing to be that no side cars would work on my client's 4.5 m VSAT earth station antenna. They already get calls from the Eutelsat NOC when one of the remote BUCs runs consistently hot on its TX power because the operator is so concerned about interference on their own satellite, nevermind to adjacent satellites.

In the 86-196 PDF, the authors say in Section 2.1 "There are numerous companies that design and manufacture the smaller diameter (3 to 6 m) antennas that exhibit a wide range in the quality of performance... Some antennas are manufactured without the benefit of a full range of technologies and facilities necessary to achieve a high quality product... Performance tradeoffs often favor low cost rather than high quality. This compromise is especially common in the highly competitive, low cost, high volume production type of antenna... In the design of larger and more expensive antennas, such as INTELSAT Standard A and B antennas, performance has generally been more predictable and in line with specified sidelobe envelopes." Those observations were written in 1986. From my standpoint, Section 2.1 is very illustrative and I believe the points have continued to be true through the decades.

Aside, today I was given some old Chaparral prime focus Ku feeds with scalar rings and some 4-leg mounting plates sized for the Ku scalar. They were used to retrofit C band reflectors to be able to receive Ku Star Choice here in Canada. The scalar would press-fit into the mount and used no additional fasteners, so it could only be adjusted "so much". It is definitely not "magic". At this point, I really want to get my salvaged 3.0 m antenna up to do some hands-on investigation.

As always, everyone else's mileage may vary.
 
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A33, thank you for the reply.

The data in the PDFs illustrate both the ITU and NTIA requirements from four decades ago for antenna designs to be able to select satellites spaced at 2 degree separation. This is in order to receive a signal without co-channel interference from an adjacent satellite, but more specifically to allow an antenna to transmit and not cause interference to other users. In RF theory, this is reciprocity. For the same frequency, an antenna's performance for RX and TX should be the same on paper and very close in reality. The roll-off graphs show the maximum signal strength allowed in order to maintain 2-degree compliance. The graphs start at 1 degree off the boresight. This is important because 1 degree to the left and 1 to the right is 2 degrees (a.k.a. starting at 1 degree on the graph is not arbitrary or "magic").

For a 3.0 m reflector, the gain is roughly +40 dB for C and +49 dB for Ku. The -3 dB beam widths are 1.75 and 0.55 degrees, respectively. At that beam width, you have lost half of your signal strength. The ITU/NTIA calcs are based upon ratios of diameter and the signal wavelength in use. For our purposes, to hit the 2-degree requirements, the resulting equation is "29 - 25*log(theta)". The equation can vary based on a couple of factors, but we will use this to ilustrate the point. Even if we used "32-25*log(theta)", the results are still range-bound.

For Ku, if the gain is +49 and the beamwidth is 0.55, then at 0.55 degrees off the boresight, the gain is +46. From the equation, at 1 degree off the boresight, the maximum gain allowed in order to be 2-degree compliant is "29 - 25*log(1)". The log of 1 is zero, therefore the max gain is 29 dB. As a result, we essentially have a -3 dB drop in the first half of a degree and another -20 dB drop in signal strength in the next 0.5 degrees. That is 1/100th the signal strength when you are 1 degree off the boresight. That is the signal falling off of a cliff. Even a 0.7 m elliptical is still around +37. At this point, if the anecdotes are that adjusting the focal length positioning of a C or Ku LNB can tweak the signal strength 1 or 2 dB, those values are rounding errors when compared to the roll-off values.

We have very differing commentary throughout the years on this site and others about the performance of Ku side car LNBs. There are some talented people who can make it work and there are some talented people who cannot make it work. Skills being considered equal, the only logical explanation to me is that some people have 2-degree compliant reflectors and some do not. I will suggest those who cannot make the side car work probably have compliant antenna systems, while those can make it work do not have compliant reflectors. If we take the anecdotal "it makes a 10-foot dish perform like a 4-footer", that means the effective gain needs to be around +40. If the side car is located 6 inches off the boresight on a reflector with a 48 inch depth, this corresponds to arctan(6/48) = 7.1 degrees. At 7.1 degrees, the maximum compliant gain is 29 - 25*log(7.1) = +7.7 dB. This is approximately -41 dB lower than than the peak, essentially 1/10000th the signal level. This is how antenna systems designed to the 2-degree criteria can discriminate between adjacent satellites. The roll-off has to be that steep.

For your Triax, I will assert that the mechanical equation and associated physical design of the reflector has multiple focal points that where the signal intensity is such that a lock is achievable. For me, it reasonably follows that the reflector design cannot be 2-degree compliant. If the roll-off graphs were followed, you wouldn't be able to lock on those adjacent satellite positions. I can play side car games with stamped 1.0 m metal reflectors that are a bit more challenging with my 1.0 m fiberglass Channel Master that are almost impossible with my 1.2 m TX-compliant Prodelin VSAT reflectors. I am willing to be that no side cars would work on my client's 4.5 m VSAT earth station antenna. They already get calls from the Eutelsat NOC when one of the remote BUCs runs consistently hot on its TX power because the operator is so concerned about interference on their own satellite, nevermind to adjacent satellites.

In the 86-196 PDF, the authors say in Section 2.1 "There are numerous companies that design and manufacture the smaller diameter (3 to 6 m) antennas that exhibit a wide range in the quality of performance... Some antennas are manufactured without the benefit of a full range of technologies and facilities necessary to achieve a high quality product... Performance tradeoffs often favor low cost rather than high quality. This compromise is especially common in the highly competitive, low cost, high volume production type of antenna... In the design of larger and more expensive antennas, such as INTELSAT Standard A and B antennas, performance has generally been more predictable and in line with specified sidelobe envelopes." Those observations were written in 1986. From my standpoint, Section 2.1 is very illustrative and I believe the points have continued to be true through the decades.

Aside, today I was given some old Chaparral prime focus Ku feeds with scalar rings and some 4-leg mounting plates sized for the Ku scalar. They were used to retrofit C band reflectors to be able to receive Ku Star Choice here in Canada. The scalar would press-fit into the mount and used no additional fasteners, so it could only be adjusted "so much". It is definitely not "magic". At this point, I really want to get my salvaged 3.0 m antenna up to do some hands-on investigation.

As always, everyone else's mileage may vary.

Mea culpa corrections on some arithmetic and associated wording...

Beam widths are 1.75 and 0.55 degrees. -3 dB point will be at half of that, so 0.875 and 0.275 degrees on either side of the boresight. As a result, the drop on the gain figure is even more steep than illustrated above. The equation is for any particular angle on either side of the main beam. As a result, figures like "7.1 degrees" are left or right on the main beam and do not represent a beam width... it's just the value at a particular off-axis point.

My own mileage varied!
 

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