Native resolution passthrough?

[TheTony]

As a 622 user, I've been pretty happy with the overall frequency and stability of the software updates, and the features they've introduced.

This said, something I still haven't seen but would very much like is native resolution passthrough. This was among the top user requested features not long ago, but I haven't heard much from the user community or Dish on this as of late.

So, while asking may be futile, I will - when is native resolution pass through coming to Dish (specifically the 622)? Is there any new information available?

 

[kstuart]

While I don't object to more optional settings, I think this feature is more of a myth than a necessity.

The theory is that "my TV may do a better job of converting than the 622".

The reality is that the 622 is always going to be doing some sort of conversion, because the satellite signal is not in a format that can be displayed, and it must be processed by the receiver.

Using native resolution pass-thru just means that you are adding additional conversions by the TV, because the TV itself is either 720 or 1080, and must convert signals that are the other resolution.

The better method is to simply set your 622 to your set's native resolution. This means you have the least number of conversions.

 

[Allin4greeN]

...The better method is to simply set your 622 to your set's native resolution. This means you have the least number of conversions.

What about sets with 1366x768p native res? I realize that this is widely considered as 720p but, the TV is still doing conversion whether the output from a STB is 480p, 1080i or 720p.

I'm not advocating for the feature but, unless I misunderstand the process, native passthrough would provide for less conversions, in this case.

 

[peepoop]

The only reason I'd like to have pass-through is so that I can have my TV tell me the resolution of the source material. Right now the 622/722 hides that information, and while they do a good enough job of upconverting everything to 1080i, I'd still like to know what I'm watching.

 

[8bitbytes]

1366x768 was a kludge the video folks cooked up so they could use current video chipsets and vram from the computer realm. You are stuck with too much scaling and a less than perfect picture no matter which path you take. Because these resolution tvs are actually computer monitor circuits adapted for tv use, I doubt the tv will do a better job with a native signal than the DVR.

HOWEVER, that decision should be up to the viewer so I understand the desire for native passthru.

Here's a pretty cool presentation of how tv circuitry creates the picture we look at; at least on a LG tv.

http://www.lge.com/products/tv/XDEngine/index.htm

 

[Teran]

My "TV" doesn't have a native resolution and doesn't do any scaling. If the native resolution is 1080i, 1080i lite, 720p, etc. I would prefer that the receiver pass the decoded signal through without scaling.

It won't happen, though.

I think that the reason that we won't see this is that the UI is scaled to whatever output resolution is currently selected and it would cause re-writes of too much UI code.

 

[8bitbytes]

My "TV" doesn't have a native resolution and doesn't do any scaling.

How does it display anything?

 

[8bitbytes]

I think that the reason that we won't see this is that the UI is scaled to whatever output resolution is currently selected and it would cause re-writes of too much UI code.

We have 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i selections and the UI is already programmed to handle those.

What native signal are we talking about that the UI is NOT programmed to handle?

 

[Teran]

How does it display anything?

It is a multisync front projection CRT. It has no native resolution.

 

[Allin4greeN]

How does it display anything?

My guess is it's a CRT, either direct view or RP. EDIT, I see Teran beat me to it

 

[harshness]

The flaw in much of this "native mode" logic is that with a few exceptions, only the 720p channels come through in a format that your TV can deal with. Most of the HD channels are 1080i vertically, but they vary from 1280 to 1440 to a few that are 1920. Even in "native mode" 1080i, there would still be a significant amount of conversion going on in the receiver.

The receiver will get a whack at whatever the real resolution is, but the TV will always be looking at something that has already been scaled back up. While some TV's have built-in ability to deal with MPEG2 artifacting, I'm guessing that even the fancy scalers don't know about how to deal with a stream that has been scaled down and up again horizontally. It isn't like the receiver can tell the scaler what it has done.

 

[Teran]

We have 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i selections and the UI is already programmed to handle those.

What native signal are we talking about that the UI is NOT programmed to handle?

It is a question of how each UI function checks for what output resolution it should use. If each UI function checks the master setting each time, then it is possible that it wouldn't take that much. However, if one UI function calls another UI function and passes the desired resolution as a parameter then there could be problems since it is likely that the programmers made some assumptions that would no longer be true.

 

[8bitbytes]

It is a multisync front projection CRT. It has no native resolution.

So, as I asked, how does it display anything? Scaler? Processor? What are the compatible frequencies and resolutions for that peice of equipment?

 

[8bitbytes]

It is a question of how each UI function checks for what output resolution it should use. If each UI function checks the master setting each time, then it is possible that it wouldn't take that much. However, if one UI function calls another UI function and passes the desired resolution as a parameter then there could be problems since it is likely that the programmers made some assumptions that would no longer be true.

I would think that value would be set as a constant before any functions or calls to functions were made in the programming. So, whether it is a user input variable or detected automatically by the receiver signal processor, it would be set for the resolution it is currently handling.

 

[Teran]

So, as I asked, how does it display anything? Scaler? Processor? What are the compatible frequencies and resolutions for that peice of equipment?

HScan: 15-135 kHz
VScan: 40-160 Hz
Bandwidth: 150Mhz

It will handle just about any resolution up to 1080P.

If Dish were to pass through 1440X1080i or 1280X1080i it would sync -- not that I expect them to.

 

[Teran]

I would think that value would be set as a constant before any functions or calls to functions were made in the programming. So, whether it is a user input variable or detected automatically by the receiver signal processor, it would be set for the resolution it is currently handling.

I wouldn't make that assumption. Programmers often take shortcuts. Take the channel banner, for instance. In current operation the banner can't be invoked immediately after a resolution change. In pass-through mode it could be. Did the programmers make any assumptions about this? I don't know. You don't know. The current programmers might not know without wading through the existing code base.

 

[vicw]

All I ask is for the Dish Receiver/DVR to pass-through 480i SD stations unaltered, as 480i, (as do the SA8200HD and the Direct TV receivers), so that I can forward it in its native form to my TV.

I know that my Pioneer Elite 16x9 provides more choices, and superior SD scaling to the 622, at least based on the User Guide. The 622 can be set to provide 1080i for 720p and 1080i inputs, as my set requires. so there are no changes necessary for those modes.

 

[MNipper]

While I don't object to more optional settings, I think this feature is more of a myth than a necessity.

Sorry, but I have to (respectfully) wholeheartedly disagree. The problem is very simple, regardless of the two choices that you select in the receiver, you are losing content.

A 720p program is pumping out full-frame content, fully refreshed at a rate of 60 times per second. Any way you look at it, if the receiver is set to operate at 1080i (wherein each scan line is only being refreshed 30 times per second), the content that had been available is being partially lost. On the other hand, if I natively feed that content to my 1080p set, I'm losing nothing. Certainly, it has to be extrapolated into a 1080 line display, but that happens regardless of where it's being processed. The difference is that my set is able to "eat" all 60 frames of information, AND display them all as well.

Conversely, if I operate the receiver at 720p, then I'm continuously having the 1080i content dithered down into far fewer lines. Again, I'm losing information.

The whole point of pass-thru is to allow the 1080p-capable set to process (and display) all of the content from both formats.

Having said all that, I doubt that we will ever see this. People are still (to this day) fighting issues with incompatibility problems between AV components, as they attempt to negotiate their hdmi connectivity. Many components seem to "barely manage" to do that once, when the components are powered on, and sometimes with considerable delays. Imagine what that will be like when the receiver flips between 1080i and 720p, every time you change channels (e.g. between ABC & CBS, or between HBO & ESPN). I'm betting that Dish (or anyone, for that matter) really doesn't want to get dipped into that mess. Granted, they could TRY to take the position of adding the feature, and saying "don't use it, if it doesn't work with your AV equipment", but it still sounds like a rat's nest of problems.

All, FWLIW.

 

[kstile]

For those of us with 4x3 HDTVs, it's not just a luxury - it's a necessity. All output over the component and HDMI is assumed to be 16x9 aspect ratio. I don't care about 720p vs 1080i, but if I watch an SD channel on my 4x3 TV, I get black bars all the way around (top and bottom b/c it's 16x9, left and right b/c the source is 4x3). The only solution is to use the S-Video output to a different input on my TV. Fortunately I have a Harmony remote programmed for "Watch HD" (video input 7) and "Watch TV" (video input 3).

All this would be solved if the 622 would pass the 480i signal over component b/c then my TV would display SD correctly.

 

[Teran]

Having said all that, I doubt that we will ever see this. People are still (to this day) fighting issues with incompatibility problems between AV components, as they attempt to negotiate their hdmi connectivity. Many components seem to "barely manage" to do that once, when the components are powered on, and sometimes with considerable delays. Imagine what that will be like when the receiver flips between 1080i and 720p, every time you change channels (e.g. between ABC & CBS, or between HBO & ESPN). I'm betting that Dish (or anyone, for that matter) really doesn't want to get dipped into that mess. Granted, they could TRY to take the position of adding the feature, and saying "don't use it, if it doesn't work with your AV equipment", but it still sounds like a rat's nest of problems.

All, FWLIW.

Digeo did it with their Moxi cable boxes. You marked which formats your display device supported in the Moxi's settings and it would switch resolutions as you changed channels. It did add a bit of delay when the resolution changed.