NOAAport help

[b.glynn]

I am a met student working a summer internship and I've been tasked with installing a NOAAPort (The ultimate source of weather prahn)

I have a few questions, first the setup

10' Mesh Sami
Chaparral Polarotor
Norsat 3120
Novra S75+


1) I've seen conflicting information, Do I need to Power on the LNB? also my Novra doesn't offer the suggest +15-24 input voltage...any suggestions?

2) My Apex elevation was 37.7° and the Bolt that came with the Sami was too short, This seams like a pretty universal dish though, Am I measuring this wrong?

3) Do i need Horizontal or vertical polarization if I power on the LNB?

Thanks in advance!

B

 

[FaT Air]

1)Do I need to Power on the LNB? also my Novra doesn't offer the suggest +15-24 input voltage...any suggestions?

According to the manual the Novra S75+ will power the LNB, and yes it needs power.

2)My Apex elevation was 37.7° and the Bolt that came with the Sami was too short, This seams like a pretty universal dish though, Am I measuring this wrong?

It's possible that you're measuring it wrong. How are you measuring it?

3) Do i need Horizontal or vertical polarization if I power on the LNB?

I don't know. That depends on the sat and transponder the NOAAPORT signal is on.

 

[skysurfer]

My replies in BOLD.

10' Mesh Sami
Chaparral Polarotor
Norsat 3120
Novra S75+


1) I've seen conflicting information, Do I need to Power on the LNB? also my Novra doesn't offer the suggest +15-24 input voltage...any suggestions?

The Novra will power the LNB. You don't need the Novra to do polarity because you are using a chaparral corotor and not a voltage-switching LNB.

2) My Apex elevation was 37.7° and the Bolt that came with the Sami was too short, This seams like a pretty universal dish though, Am I measuring this wrong?

Have you computed the elevation for 101 deg W satellite from your dish site? Your elevation will be measured in-line with the face of the dish if you have a prime focus dish (feedhorn/LNB points straight into the dish and not looks into the dish from a slight angle like you see on the DISH/Directv dishes).


3) Do i need Horizontal or vertical polarization if I power on the LNB?

Doesn't matter since you are using a chaparral corotor. If you don't have an old receiver with polarotor servo controls (pulse, ground and +5V DC), then you can unscrew the servo motor from
the feedhorn, rotate the polarity piece by hand to vertical polarity with a little bit of skew difference if the 101 deg W sat is not your due south sat, and then use duct tape or other tape to hold the polarity piece in position and to keep the rain out from leaking into the feedhorn where the pickup probes are.

On your Novra, you may want to use 18V ("H" polarity in the tuning software) because people seem to swear LNBs work better on 18V than 14V (the "V" polarity setting).

Thanks in advance!

B

 

[B.J.]

Just a couple more comments.

I'm guessing that your SAMI dish is on a polar mount. Even though I'm assuming that you're going to use this as a fixed dish rather than motorized, it's probably easier to set it up as polar, mainly because this will make the polarity adjustment easier, and if they ever move to another sat, it will make finding that sat easier too.
I'm confused relative to what you're referring to as the "Apex elevation" of 37.7°, and where you got this elevation, and how you are measuring it?
Some people refer to the apex elevation as being the elevation of a sat to your true south, but there is also the possibility that you're referring to the actual elevation of the SES-1 satellite that NOAAPORT is on, and it's also possible that you're referring to the elevation of the polar mount rotation axis on the SAMI mount. Basically these are 3 different things, measured differently and set differently. It might help if you gave us your actual Lat/Lon location and a description of what "bolt" on the SAMI mount you are referring to. And also, if you're not motorizing the dish, and if it is a polar mount, how are you locking the dish into a fixed position. If it isn't a polar mount, but instead an Az/El mount, perhaps post a picture of it showing the bolt, as I haven't seen a SAMI on an Az/El.

Relative to the polarity, Skysurfer suggested a way for you to adjust the polarity probes manually, and that can work, however it seems a bit strange to use duct tape to keep the weather out. You can instead adjust the polarity by rotating the entire feedhorn inside the scalar rings. If you are setting the thing up as a polar mount alignment, you can just rotate it until the probes inside are vertical when the dish is at it's highest position (via movement around the polar axis), either straight up or straight down. Then as you move the mount to find the SES-1 sat, the polarity will automatically be corrected by the movement of the dish on the mount. If you're using an Az/El mount, then you'll have a non-vertical polarity, which will have to be adjusted to the proper polarity. If you have a receiver at the dish, you can turn the whole feedhorn until you get maximum signal, or you can mark the position of the probes, and try to estimate the calculated polarity angle rotation needed. This doesn't need to be real accurate. Usually if you're within 5-10 deg, you'll be OK. But anyway, I'd leave the polarotor on there, and rotate the whole feed to get polarity adjusted, and the adjustment is easier if you're set up on a polar mount.

Also, I'm not real familiar with the Novra receiver, but if it is set up to control an LNBF instead of an LNB, since you'll be setting up you polarity manually, even though the NOAAPORT signal is vertical polarity, I'd recommend setting the Novra to horizontal polarity, because it may output 13V on vertical transponders and 18V on horizontal transponders, and your LNB will work better at 18V. This of course assumes that the Novra is actually connected directly to the LNB, rather than slaving it to some analog receiver. If you are slaved to an analog receiver, then that could be used to position the dish and control polarity AND provide the 18V to the LNB. Oops... I just noticed that Skysurfer suggested using the horizontal 18V setting too, so I agree with that.

 

[b.glynn]

re:

Hey fellas,


Thanks for all the help!

I've made some adjustments, when I power up the Novra Software I get a Signal Strength of 79-80% but no Signal or Data (light). Is this the strength of the connection to the LNB?


I've attached a few photos of what I was referring to for Apex elevation, Polar Mount and the calculations from dish pointer.

The Novra is connected directly to the LNB. Is I know the Down link frequency Do i put in 0 for the L.O? Anything else returns an error saying value is out of range.

At this point I feel like I've returned this thing 100 times. Perhaps I'm missing something or mixing AZEL directions with polar. Any Idea's of a check list I should run?


Thanks Again! your guys are a huge help!

 

[B.J.]

Hey fellas,


Thanks for all the help!

I've made some adjustments, when I power up the Novra Software I get a Signal Strength of 79-80% but no Signal or Data (light). Is this the strength of the connection to the LNB?


I've attached a few photos of what I was referring to for Apex elevation, Polar Mount and the calculations from dish pointer.

The Novra is connected directly to the LNB. Is I know the Down link frequency Do i put in 0 for the L.O? Anything else returns an error saying value is out of range.

At this point I feel like I've returned this thing 100 times. Perhaps I'm missing something or mixing AZEL directions with polar. Any Idea's of a check list I should run?


Thanks Again! your guys are a huge help!

I think you're mixing Az/El and polar.
The 37.7 elevation is the actual elevation of the sat, but from what I see none of the places you're measuring correspond to that angle.
I think you need to decide whether to try for Az/El or polar. It looks to me like your mount is a polar mount, but I *THINK* (can't see in the pictures) that you must have a metal bar attached where an actuator normally goes. In your first picture, it looks like to the upper right of the inclinometer is a flat metal bar attached to the dish ring? Is that also attached to the main part of the mount where you can't see in the pictures? If so, I think this is where an actuator would normally attach, and it's there to keep the dish from turning on the polar axis. It looks like the dish is rotated about 20 deg to the west on the polar axis? If this is true, I'm curious whether this bar is at all adjustable? Basically, if you want to use the dish as an Az/El, I think you'd want the dish aimed as high as possible on the axis, not 20 deg to the west. Then you can measure the pointing angles to set the elevation better, And you'd adjust azimuth by turning the whole mount on the pole (not always easy.
To use the mount as a polar mount, the angle shown in your 3rd picture is pretty close to the right angle, ie about 45.6, however you should then again adjust that bar so that the dish is straight up, and the angle at the back of the dish (similar to what you're showing in the first picture but I'd recommend putting the inclinometer either exactly in the center or on a straight edge vertically across the ring, to make sure it's measuring a surface perpindicular to the aim of the dish. Then, that angle should be about 50.5 (not sure if there will be room for your meter). Ie the dish should aime about 6.1 degrees lower than the angle represented by perpindicular to the bar you're measuring in the 3rd picture. After that angle is set, then you turn the dish a bit west using the metal bar adjustment (or get an actuator), until the face of the dish is showing the 37.7 deg, when measured along the fall line of the dish, which would be 90-37.7=62.3 the way you're measuring in the 1st picture, if you make sure the meter is parallel to the dish surface or ring surface. THen, however, you have to make sure that the big bar you're measuring in the 3rd picture is aimed exactly at your true south, rotating the whole mount on the pole. (I guess the above got a bit complicated. I'm not sure now whether you're better off doing Az/El or polar.)
In any event though, your dish is way too high right now. This is because you're pretty much measuring 90 minus your elevations, not your elevations.

 

[B.J.]

..

The Novra is connected directly to the LNB. Is I know the Down link frequency Do i put in 0 for the L.O? Anything else returns an error saying value is out of range.

At t..

I forgot this one.... I'm not sure which freq you're using. The actual downlink freq is ~3956 however the IF freq, which is the actual freq used by your receiver, is 5150-3956= 1194
Generally, if you use zero for the LO freq, then you should use 1194, however if you insert your 5150 LO freq, then use the 3956 value.

 

[b.glynn]

Thanks for the help Although I feel more educated, I am thoroughly focused.


Heres what I have for a Dish:

http://www.samidish.com/SAMIINST1.pdf
http://www.samidish.com/SAMIINST2.pdf


I am in excelsior, Mn and Would Like to set this up as a Polar Mount for NOAA port. I don't Have a mechanical actuator arm.

What Angle's do I need to Calculate and Set? my lnb IS Parallel to the Dish plane and is Offset 7° CCW (CW facing the LNB from behind the Dish)

Please help me understand this a little better.


Also if an AZ/EL setup is going to work better for this I am open to that.

 

[B.J.]

...
I am in excelsior, Mn and Would Like to set this up as a Polar Mount for NOAA port. I don't Have a mechanical actuator arm.

What Angle's do I need to Calculate and Set? my lnb IS Parallel to the Dish plane and is Offset 7° CCW (CW facing the LNB from behind the Dish)

Please help me understand this a little better.


Also if an AZ/EL setup is going to work better for this I am open to that.

Basically, if you're going to set it up as an Az/El, you should have the dish at it's highest point, rotate the mount to the azimuth of the sat, and raise the dish so it's elevation (90 minus the angles you were measuring) is 37.7, measured at the plane of the dish surface. You then need to set the skew of the feedhorn.

To set it up as a polar mount, the mount MUST be pointed true south, and the polar axis is as you have it set, and the angle of the dish should be lowered 6.1 deg lower than the angle of the polar axis. when the dish is at it's highest point.You then have to adjust the dish to the west on the polar axis, as if you had an actuator instead of the metal bar (hopefully that bar is adjustable) about 8 degrees to the west. For a polar mount setup, your feedhorn skew is zero, ie it's set up vertically when pointed south. The problem is that it's difficult to adjust the azimuth exactly, and the 8 deg rotation around the polar axis isn't easy to get accurate. But if you get it close, hopefully you can tweak both azimuth and rotation around the axis to maximize the signal.

Since you don't have an actuator, I'm starting to think that it would be easier for you to do the Az/El thing, since there are less things to adjust. The advantage of the polar setup is that if you want to later find another sat, you only need to rotate around the polar axis, and no skew adjustments are necessary.

But I think your biggest issue is that you're measuring latitude angle (90-elevation) instead of elevation.

 

[b.glynn]

Making progress

I've set this up as a AZ/El mount. Signal light on the Novra is steady with a strength of 88%.

However - I can not get it to 'Lock' Signal or the Data light to come on. I spent all day tuning it, not sure what to do next?


There is a static mount where an actuator arm would bolt on, I'm not using one and I notice this causes the Dish to tilt around 15 deg to the left. Do I need to construct a mount so its offset is even on both sides?


Thanks again for all the help!

 

[B.J.]

I've set this up as a AZ/El mount. Signal light on the Novra is steady with a strength of 88%.

However - I can not get it to 'Lock' Signal or the Data light to come on. I spent all day tuning it, not sure what to do next?


There is a static mount where an actuator arm would bolt on, I'm not using one and I notice this causes the Dish to tilt around 15 deg to the left. Do I need to construct a mount so its offset is even on both sides?


Thanks again for all the help!

The static mount you're referring to is the metal bar I was asking about, ie whether it was adjustable. Apparently it must not be adjustable. It's not absolutely necessary for you to have that the proper length so that you don't get the 15 deg tilt, but it will make things easier, because that 15 deg tilt changes both the Azimuth AND elevation AND the polarity, at least where they are normally measured. You'll have to measure the elevation relative to the aime of the dish, rather than the mount. Ie try to ignore the mount, and adjust the Azimuth via the line from center of dish to feedhorn, rather than the direction the mount is aiming, and measure the elevation relative to the vertical, rather than parallel to the connection points of the mount to the dish (I think I referred to this is relative to fall line above).
If the metal bar was adjusted so the dish was centered, and if you could adjust your declination adjustment to give zero declination, then you could accurately dial in any elevation via the inclinometer on the mount like in one of the pictures, and the mount would be used to set the Azimuth, and you'd set your polarity relative to vertical on the mount as well. You can do everything OK with the dish tilted 15 deg, but you have to visualize all your angles relative to a plumb bob rather than the mount structure.

If I were you, I'd get one of those little hand held meters, and raise and lower the dish elevation until you see and indication of signal (center the meter when off sat, then look for the signal reading increasing). Then using the hand held meter, try to peak both Azim and Elev on whatever sat you've found. Then the next step is to identify that sat. If you think you're close to the proper sat, you can try known active transponders on several nearby sats, to find out what sat you're on. Then you'll have an idea of how much east or west you'll need to adjust your Azimuth, and after you've changed the Azimuth, you can then search for that sat by adjusting the elevation. Basically, with the hand held meters, you can usually detect when you hit the Clarke belt when changing the elevation. It doesn't tell you what sat you're on, but will tell you if you're on the belt.

 

[FaT Air]

Just my 2 cent's worth, I think you may be getting a signal strength from some random transponder, may not even be the right sat. (I don't know the particulars of that rcvr)
Because you've decided on AZ-El. Trying to "visualize" everything with the 15 degree offset is just too much of a pain, (Not a math major here!) I prefer the K.I.S.S. principle. I would center the dish on the polar rotation, and lock it there,

There is a static mount where an actuator arm would bolt on, I'm not using one and I notice this causes the Dish to tilt around 15 deg to the left. Do I need to construct a mount so its offset is even on both sides?

Yes, as that is not going to be used In an AZ-El config. And centered, only simple math is involved.
NOTE: The bar must be attached to the mount and dish, if it attaches to the pole and dish, rotating the Azimuth will also move the dish on the polar axis, and we don't want that in an AZ-EL config.
Then in your first picture, you are measuring the "elevation Offset", this is 90 - sat elevation. For your sat at elevation 37.7 degrees, this should read 90 - 37.7, or 52.3 . Set it there using the turnbuckle on back of mount, set the Skew of the LNB, then rotate mount on pole to the AZ shown on dishpointer, and start looking for a Quality reading.
Thought- to "see" your skew, Remove the cover on the front of the feed. Put a mark on the outside of the feed in line with the probe, Then, for vertical pol, the skew is that mark offset from the top of the dish, H is offset from the side of the dish (90 degrees).
If your feed has an adjustable scalar, adjusting the skew is just a matter of "twisting" the lnb in the scalar. In your case that would be CW looking into the face of the dish.
Again, just my 2 cents - -

 

[WXMN]

12 Aug 2010

I just ran into your question here about getting a NOAAPort downlink working. I was wondering if you were able to get everything working.

I am currently located at the Minneapolis/St Paul International Airport and I have been operating two NOAAPort downlinks for several years now. I am currently utilizing two 3.7M antennas, Norsat 3120/3220 LNB's and Norva S75 and S75 plus receivers. I also install a 3.7M NOAAPort downlink in Tucson, AZ last December. I usually use a Birdog for alignment and fine tuning.

I just started seeing some TI or something over the last week or so, which is causing me some uncorrectable errors. From what I understand the power output of SES-1 was adjusted down, sometime in July, from what they started out with on SES-1 after the switchover from AMC-4.

If you still need some help let me know. I would be happy to help. Even if you just need to test a reciver or LNB or somehting. I may even be able to come over with the birdog and help you find the correct bird. So far I only have interfaced with a couple of other NOAAPort user in town here and that is Digital Cyclone and Honeywell and Honeywell left town a few years ago with that project.

 

[azwxman]

WXMN, I am far away from MSP, but I could really use your help if don't mind. We had been having intermittent NOAAPort signal outages for a few months and completely lost our NOAAPort signal a few days ago (likely due to the power decrease I was unaware of until I read your post. I have been trying to align our dish for the past week w/o any luck. I even fired up or old Novra S75 reciever (we use a Skystream receiver which is poorly supported).

A couple questions:

Do you recommend using quad shield coax?
Is "guess and check" the best way to align the dish w/o having access to a Birdog or equivalent?

Any info/advice would be great!

Thank you.

 

[GOES 12 GVAR user]

Your not alone

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Hi I have been reading this and it seems your not alone b.glynn
I waited all the way for SES1 to come into position to get the NOAAPORT sig.
I even tried on the old AMC series satellites to get the signal, I had the exact same problem.
I used a 10' dish and a chapperal feed ,Norsat LNB and one of those satellite cards that can be installed in a computer. I can't say how much time I put into this and could not get a signal lock.
because I used a satellite card I could confirm that I was on the right bird because I could get (Golden eagle broadcasting) channel + a few others.
A link here to what is on ses1

SES 1 at 101.0°W - LyngSat

I could also get Galaxy 16 with the same setup.
After I tried everything I got serious and got out my spectrum analyzer and looked at the LNB output and found that the NOAAPORT signal was way too weak compared to Most of the others.
I am in South Iowa here a little bit closer to the satellite and couldn't get a lock.
Here is what I have determined, My antenna was at least 2 feet too small to get a data lock. They say is only takes and 8' antenna to get the signal but that's not true.
It will take at least an 12' antenna to receive NOAAPORT .
I can confirm this because there was a NOAAPORT station in California and he had and 8' antenna and his station went dead, his data goes back to I think April of this year.
Also there is the ONLY internet known working NOAAPORT station in Cuba and I have talked the the operator of the station and they had to go to a bigger antenna as well due to the S/N ratio.
A web link to this is

Nbsp - Noaaport Broadcast System Processor

And last but not least any commercial manufactures include nothing smaller than a 12' antenna in their system package.
I used this setup to get data on off of Intellsat 9 (Geocast net) it worked just fine there.
Unforchantly that service don't have hardly any US based data it is all overseas and not very timely.
What you are seeing in your signal strength meter is nearby satellites very close to the frequency of interest, the receiver can't recognize the weak NOAAPORT signal over the stronger nearby ones so you get what looks like a strong signal but it is not, I will probably get disagreements about this.
A little bit about my satellite set up.
I have a GOES 12 GVAR data downlink and EMWIN. Have had the setup for 5 years.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Some more info on NOAAPORT

1. Downlink Frequency: 3956.5 MHz downlink frequency.
2. Symbol rate: 6.349 Megasymbols/sec
3. PIDs:

101 NWSTG
102 GOES
103 NWSTG2
104 4th/OCONUS/Nopt

----------------------------------------
Bottomline is recommend that you get a bigger antenna of at least 12' NO smaller.
If you do i'd like to know the outcome.
I am unwilling to put up another large antenna now.
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[GOES 12 GVAR user]

Forgot this....

The polarization of the signal is vertical.

 

[skysurfer]

wow, you are in a world of hurt if you can't get NOAAPORT on a 10' dish. Your dish must be really messed up (not very parabolic), not installed or aimed well for whatever reason.

I can't imagine how you'd even have a chance at the DVB-S2 upcoming transition if you can't get the DVB-S easy signal now.

Yes, it's not the strongest signal on SES-1 but there are no problems locking onto the NOAAPORT signal on a 8.5', 9' and 10' dish. 10.0 db SNR on my tevii card on the 8.5' dish in August when I last checked the signal.

 

[GOES 12 GVAR user]

Hi Skysurfer,
I have used this antenna to receive bolth GOES East and West GVAR transmissions with no problems.
I used this antenna to receive Geocastnet off intellisat 9 with no problems.
And geocast net should be transmitting at about the same power as NOAAPORT.
But I couldn't get a lock on the NOAAPORT signal no matter what I tried.
What kind of feed and LNB are you using?
The only possible problem could have been in the LNB, But that doesn't explain why I could get Geocast net lock solid.
I have been told by others the NOAAPORT was usable on a 10' dish but my results shure didn't support that.
Ya, I am interested in what kind of signal strength you getting now, you got my curiosity.

 

[ParaclipseCKu]

I used my 10ft dish and received the Noaaport signal fine for a year. I have since upgraded to a 12ft dish for extra margin during storms.

It's not easy to tune as the Noaaport signal is very very narrow!


The transmission will be going to DVB-S2 in March 2011 which means new receivers will be needed.

Good Luck to all!

 

[B.J.]

wow, you are in a world of hurt if you can't get NOAAPORT on a 10' dish. Your dish must be really messed up (not very parabolic), not installed or aimed well for whatever reason.

I can't imagine how you'd even have a chance at the DVB-S2 upcoming transition if you can't get the DVB-S easy signal now.

Yes, it's not the strongest signal on SES-1 but there are no problems locking onto the NOAAPORT signal on a 8.5', 9' and 10' dish. 10.0 db SNR on my tevii card on the 8.5' dish in August when I last checked the signal.

Hi Skysurfer,
I have used this antenna to receive bolth GOES East and West GVAR transmissions with no problems.
I used this antenna to receive Geocastnet off intellisat 9 with no problems.
And geocast net should be transmitting at about the same power as NOAAPORT.
But I couldn't get a lock on the NOAAPORT signal no matter what I tried.
What kind of feed and LNB are you using?
The only possible problem could have been in the LNB, But that doesn't explain why I could get Geocast net lock solid.
I have been told by others the NOAAPORT was usable on a 10' dish but my results shure didn't support that.
Ya, I am interested in what kind of signal strength you getting now, you got my curiosity.

I agree with skysurfer. There has got to be something seriously wrong with your system if you can't get a lock on the NOAAPORT signal.

But more than that, I am a bit mystified when someone who is unable to get reception comes on and tells people who ARE getting reception that they're doing it wrong?

While it's not the strongest signal on the sat, it's not the weakest either, and I'm seeing it as being stronger than that Golden Eagle signal mentioned.
I get the NOAAPORT signal virtually error free (not just uncorrected error free, I'm basically seeing very few corrected errors), and I'm using an OLD 10' dish that is probably similar to most 8' dishes due to it's being dented due to my knocking snow off in the winter. I really don't see any reason why anyone in the continental US shouldn't be able to get a good lock on this transponder.

Yes, a 12' dish might be better if your installation is solid enough, and it might be necessary for locations out of the footprint, but if you can't get a 10' dish to lock this satellite, my guess is that you won't be able to get a 12' dish to lock, because the odds are that your aim is off, and it's easier to aim an 8' dish than a 12' dish.

I'm not familiar with the signal mentioned on the 58 sat, but last I checked, the GOES signals are ~1685 MHz, and the surface accuracy requirred for that are less critical than they are for the ~4 GHz signals. You don't say if you have a motorized dish, but since you mention getting 5 different sats, I assume you are, and if so, I'd guess that the odds are 10:1 that your alignment is off.

Also, that NOAAPORT signal has a couple narrow signals to each side, and if the LO freq of your LNB is off slightly, you could be having problems due to being off freq. I'm receiving that signal on 5 different computer based cards right now, no problem, all running off the same signal, split between them.

Another possible issue is the location of your setup, ie potential interferrence from ground based equipment, or the grounding of your system, as actually sometimes excessive grounding can make things worse. Also, the power supply in your computer can be an issue, and can be a source of noise. Also, you say that you have a Norsat LNB, but there are a wide range of frequency stability specs for the various Norsat LNBs, which can be important for narrow signals.

Anyway, when you say "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica] It will take at least an 12' antenna to receive NOAAPORT .
I can confirm this" , this is just flat out WRONG. I would recommend that before you go off and buy a 12' dish, I'd figure out what's wrong with your 10' system, because that SHOULD work.


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