Problem with 4d (or maybe just trees?)

[scottxray]

I have been having an issue with my receiver/dish that has me puzzled. I think I know the answer, but maybe someone can clarify or verify for me .

I have had a lot of trouble trying to get the Denver feeds ( 103 W RM8). In the past when they were on 135 I had no problem. At that time I had the dish mounted on my roof and had Clear sky from 105 to everything West of there . I could also pick up 97 very weakly, and 91-95 fine. One tree blocked all sats from 103-97. 95 , 93 91 were clear then trees again to the east . When they (RM8) were shut down by Charlie and then moved to W1 (103) I had a lot of trouble trying to find a place where I could access them. Douglas firs blocked all sats from 97 to 105. After a lot of effort I found that if I moved the 8.5 foot Orbitron I had to my rear deck from my roof, I could get them via a hole between 2 douglas fir trees. Signal and quality have always been somewhat compromised. The max Quality I ever got was 35 with a signal about 70. Average is signal 68 , quality 30
Lately with X4 in play I have subscribed to the Get it all pack. I also had subbed to Starz on W5, but always had trouble with Vertical transponders as they were about 50% quality of the Horizontal TPs. Since I have DirectV I was not too concerned about it

Although the Denver MUX would come in at about 30-35 quality and I never had a problem locking them I always had trouble with certain TPs (vertical Polarity on W5). And with poor moisture (rain ) the RM8 would drop to about 20 Quality ( but still lock fine ) on my 920.

I recently put in a 10 foot dish in place of the 8.5 foot. Whereas my max quality was never higher than 35 before on W5 (105) I now can get a quality of max 50 and average 25 -35 on both vertical and Horizontal Polarity. That is when it is clear and dry. However , When it RAINS ( which is happenng a LOT the last few weeks up here in Oregon) I will see quality drop to the 20-25 level on Horizontal and below 10 on horizontal on occasion..

I have played with the feed placement and scalar settings many times the last week, but the dish is limited to those values, so I assume the feed is close to correct if not perfect., and they are as high as it gets. Rain fade is not supposed to be a factor on C-band, but I have had the same issue with a DMX 741, co rotor2 and Adl RP3 feed with different lnbs and TWO separate 920s. The Horizontal feed is about 2 x the strength of the Vertical feeds in terms of quality, on X4(105). If it rains , many X4 feeds Vertical feeds drop to signal <65 and Quality <10...pixelated or no lock.

My thought is that the Douglas fir trees that are blocking a lot of my satellites are PARTIALLY blocking my W5 (X4 105 W) feeds and that is why I am having issues with X4.Since there were only the RM8 feeds on W1 and they were always the same polarity, I feel that the reason they came in fine was the polarity was in the Vertical (physical) direction AND they were also more clear than the X4/W5 feeds. I can lock the Caribbean net feeds on G4 (99 W) with my FTA using this dish...but everything EAST of 99 (until 95) is also blocked by another Tree. The Vertical TPs on W5 /X4 should actually be looking horizontally across the dish, so they would ghave a lower sigbal if they are partiaaly occluded.

My question is ...can a tree which is blocking (say) the right side of a dish ( if viewed from behind the dish looking toward the SAT) affect signal and quality on a satellite in ONE polarity?. And would this explain Rain fade occurring on a 10 foot C-band dish, that would actually cause enough loss to lose digital lock on a 4d (again in ONE polarity)?

The quality drops in BOTH polaritys...but always drops more in the VERTICAL ( for X4) polarity when it is Raining. ( note we are having heavy rain here the last week, and when it stops Quality and signal both go up to levels that are aceptable for viewing without tiling). In addition Vertical polarity is always lower than Horizontal in both signal and qulaity.

As a side note...I can get solid locks on other DC sats ( G0- C4) when this is occuring on X4/W5...siganl/quality may be down while raining but not in the same amount. There are no objects that would block part of the Dish view on these sats. There is no apparent polarity issue with huge changes in signal or quality on sats that don't have close trees or other obstructions.

Am I beating my head against a wall here, and the trees are the full problem? Or am I missing something . ( I have done my best to align the feed and the dish tracking and can't get any further improvement after trying feed, focus and scalar adjustments.)

IS there another explanation for this occurring on two separate dishes (orbitron 8.5 and Winegard 10) with Three separate feedhorns, and Two 920s? The two things common are the dish location and the cables to the receivers.

 

[oldsatdude]

Trees can cause one polarity to fade or be lower than the opposite polarity if shading one side of the dish. Each satellite has different formats of polarity and one tree may effect one side and another tree effect another side for the satellite because of the format. One overlooked thing about the dish is the parabolic roundness of the dish. You should look at the very edge and see that the edge is lined up all the way around. Some types of dishes will sag when down on the lower side of the pole. The pole needs to be plumb on the N,S,E,and W side of the pipe. Even the bolts that hold the cap to the pole can pull it crooked or turn it when socking them down tight.. Make sure the feed is centered on the dish and not crooked. Some button hooks will sag. All of these things will effect the alignment when adjusting the dish. Also, take your extra receiver out to the dish on a nice day and check the signal and quality with a portable TV using a spare coax directly from the LNB to the receiver. Compare to inside the home signal and quality. Sounds like a bad coax or splice if you are having trouble with rain fade on C-band. Rain fade on Ku is normal. Bypass the splitter and just run one receiver to see any difference. Even the splitter can be a problem if your using multiple receivers and may need a IF in line amp with long coax runs.
Hope some of this can help you out, Good Luck!

 

[stoker_x1]

I read your post and would like to know where you live. That might or might not be important, but would help to know.

Also, while I don't want to disagree with other posters, the simplest answers are generally correct. Previous poster has made some good points, but I doubt in your case they are the problem. Pointing your dish properly and adjusting you skew should be your first priority. Your maximum quality of 50 should be at least 70-78 on 105W with a ten foot dish. This is a strong Satellite. You may need to adjust your LNB. Example: Horizontal quality of say 60 and a Vertical quality of say 30 would say that you need to turn the LNB to the left or right slightly, and watch for changes. 60/30 should be more like 45/45. Your numbers above make me think that an adjustment is called for here. Once you have checked and improved the numbers for skew, then you can try adjusting the bud to get better numbers. For that you will need some help if you do it like I did. Two cell phones and two people. One watches the quality signal while the other person starts turning nuts on the adjusters. Go one way one full turn and stop, wait a few seconds and ask friend watching quality if there was a change. If the quality goes up, then turn in same direction one more turn. Do this until the numbers start dropping. If they drop on your first turn, then reverse direction. Try to start with a sat around the top middle of the arch. Once you have tweeked to the highest numbers there then go to an eastern sat and tweak there doing the same things you did when you started. After that, go to the farthest Western sat you can lock on and do it again. I can't tell you where to make these adjustment since I don't know the type of dish you have, but it doesn't matter, if you understand the effect one turn at one adjuster has on the quality readings you will figure it out on you own.

Skew and dish position are the problem 99% of the time. The one percent left over are caused by LNBs and wiring problems to name two. My rule of thumb on this problem is that it is the dish, the dish, and the dish. My ten footers found signals real easy compared with smaller dishes, and when I thought they were set up just perfect, then I discovered that I could not lock some birds. Doing adjustments made all the difference in the world.

Hope this helps. Stoker

 

[scottxray]

I live near Portland, OR ( suburb) , hence the Douglas firs.

Last night when I posted this X4-219 was signal 64 Quality 23. 217 was quality 9-10.

Without moving anything, this morning X4 219 is signal 70, Quality 47. X4 217 is signal 68, quality 37.

It has stopped raining , although still heavy cloud cover. This is a massive change without me doing anything at all
and that is what has been driving me crazy for two months on this sat.

As far as alignment I have cross strung BOTH dishes ( the 10 is better than the 8.5 as its only 4 pieces) and they are both within 1/8" of flat.
no discernable edge visual deformation. pole is plumb, arc tracking well for what sats I can receive, and mesh in good condition ( a few hail dents
etc but no missing or torn panels). Signal and quality do not improve by pressing up or down on the bottom of the dish....

I played with focal position of the feed yesterday and my measurements are the dish depth is 21 5/8", diameter 120" so the focus should be at 41.6".
FD ratio is .346.. Set feed to that on the scalar and adjusted scalar to that depth by twisting the quad supports...and signal/quality was lower, Best result is
at Focus of 41.25 " scalar at .34. The scalar ring is the only thing I haven't quite been able to be SURE about as it was raining hard and I couldn't get my tape measure
to hold up. When its dryer, I will go at it again to make sure it is equidisant to all four quadrant. By eyball it is pointing at the dish center now.
I do think the trees are PART of the problem (H and V differences). I'll post some pics of the view from the dish and you'll be surpised at what
I'm having to do just to use the dish at all.

But there is more going on here. The cables on the Orbitron were direct from the LNBs to the Receiver...no splices or breaks. Splitter for
FTA is right at the receiver. I have removed it before with no effective change. I had to slightly extend the cables with the 10' winegard,
but I installed the winegard because of the problem of massive signal changes on the Orbitron , differences in H/V on W1-W5, etc.
I am going to run a second cable to the dish (no splices and see if that could be the problem. The cables are above ground and maybe some critter is
chewing on them along the way (hard to tell) and allowing moisture penetration.

Thanks for the suggestions.


I am not using an lnbf. Using a co-rotor...I have tweaked skew till blue in face...and done dish adjustments too. I have
the signal modulated on channel 123 and can take a TV out to the dish for doing adjustemnts, while watching the quality.

 

[Asket]

If the problem is worsening with time aging LNB can also cause the problem. Difficult to tell what the trees are doing but a signal level such as you mention will result in an unstable lock. Are the trees directly in the path of the the sat signal?

I get fair to good reception through trees with a 10' Winegard Pinnacle, around 70 to 80.

 

[oldsatdude]

Scott x ray,

Process of elimination is a good way to determine what is going on with your set up. I would still take the receiver and a portable TV outside and bypass the house wiring. Check the results with both LNB's, it is possible that both LNB's are giving you some issue. Could be Terrestrial Interference from a microwave path beaming over your house. Some communication companies use microwave to hop from point to point. Those can somtimes be right about 950 mhz.
You said you tried two receivers and two LNBs and tweeked the corotor with the same results (receiver inside I presume). You checked the dish alignment, pole and focal distance. Sounds like you are seasoned on the tweeking part. I still think you have a coax issue. Did you tweek the dish on C-band only or did you use the Ku and the FTA receiver. I have run into this tree problem before with my dish and that is why I put up the tall pole. When the wind blows the limbs toward my dish the signal fades and the picture begins to brake up and then goes out.

 

[scottxray]

Took the second 920 out to the dish and ran a cable straight to the C band Lnb. Signal jumped up to 78-85, quality better but not huge increase.


However, that told me that cable is causing loss. I Traced along the cable (standard twin coax plus controls ribbon cable...) from house wall exit and did not find any tears rips or animal damage. So I reterminated ALL f-connectors with new compression type fittings at both ends and at the twin f junction I had to add when I replaced the Orbitron 8.5 with the Winegard last weekend. I also removed the splitter that was for the FTA receiver as it was dropping quality also. In addition I found the F connector for C band at the receiver did not have a tight lock nut clamping it to the receiver body. Tightened that up also.

Signal is now a low of 72 and High of 84 on the X4 channels. Quality is still a low of 24-25 (however with a 920 you can get a clear digital lock with NO tiling at 13-15 Quality) with a high of 58. The weakest transponders seem to be some of the Verticals but I believe this is just transponder related. Average Q over X4 total is about 38, average signal is 76.

For instance X4 210 is H pol and has signal 78, Qual 37, and x4 211 is V polarity Sig 78 and Quality 36.
This morning 219 was signal 70 Qual 47 and 217 was S 68 Q 37
Now 219 is S 82 Q 57, 217 S 76 Q 30. So the signal is up, but PART of this is removing the FTA splitter. However I have never gotten these kind of numbers on X4 (w5)
before.

I don't think that I will achieve much better than this . I will try to attach some pics of what I have to deal with as far as the trees go. I have some challenges as you'll see,
Keep in mind that I moved the dish from the roof in order to get the Denver MUX , As I don't have as many issues from there, but W1 (103) is absolutley blocked from the roof (by the same tree that is partially blocking X4).


But another issue is that it was DRY today. Tomorrow it starts raining again...If I see a substantial loss of quality again I will be back to square one as to
where the loss is. I have the feedhorn assy covered so that should be okay, and I taped each and every connector to make sure moisture isn't entering
the back of the F connectors along the cable, or at the junctions. Also put in drip loops to drain any water away.

 

[oldsatdude]

OK, now you are getting somewhere. You may want to check the frequency of the splitter you have removed from the cable for the FTA receiver. It should say something like 950 to 1450 mhz. IF splitters are not the same as a diplexer type splitter. Adding a "in line" amp ahead of the splitter can possibly give you a boost on the quality levels. See if you can obtain a 10 or 20 db "in line" amp.
Those pix are awsome and you should be in the biz. I am impressed with what you did. Certainly can see why installers would walk away from that job. The trees are definatly a hindrance to the view of the sky for your dish. I can confirm that the dish is partially shaded by those trees and rain is collecting on the limbs and making the situation worse. The wind also is a factor in what direction the trees are swaying.
Best to you, and maybe a chainsaw should be added to your list of toys?

 

[scottxray]

OK, now you are getting somewhere. You may want to check the frequency of the splitter you have removed from the cable for the FTA receiver. It should say something like 950 to 1450 mhz. IF splitters are not the same as a diplexer type splitter. Adding a "in line" amp ahead of the splitter can possibly give you a boost on the quality levels. See if you can obtain a 10 or 20 db "in line" amp.
Those pix are awsome and you should be in the biz. I am impressed with what you did. Certainly can see why installers would walk away from that job. The trees are definatly a hindrance to the view of the sky for your dish. I can confirm that the dish is partially shaded by those trees and rain is collecting on the limbs and making the situation worse. The wind also is a factor in what direction the trees are swaying.
Best to you, and maybe a chainsaw should be added to your list of toys?

I wish it were that simple. Those firs are easily 100+ feet tall, and worst of all they aren't on my property. Their trunks are about 250-300 feet away. The tree boles at ground level are about 2-1/2 to 3 feet in diameter. If I could cut them down, or top them they would have been gone in 2000.

The splitter is 40-2050 MHz, but brought 76 signals back down to 68or 64. My thought is that I will get a DMX 242 and send each receiver its own separate LNBF for C-band. Maybe try to put a KU bullet to the outside of the Feed horn scalar...
The 20 db amp may be overkill, but a ten is an option.

will have to wait to see if the signal degrades again with weather

Luckily they also don't sway much in wind, probably moving 2-3 feet at the arc level in HIGH winds (30 -50 MPH). The individual branches will move, but the central trunk is pretty stable.

Trees are sacred up here, and The city has to give you permission and a permit to take down anything over 6" diameter trunk. And those are only for sick or diseased trees. Having one of these on residential land is almost impossible to remove.

When people first move up here they think how wonderful it will be to live near and under these things. After a few years you realise that they are a nuisance and block the sunlight that you come to love more thatn the trees.

I bought this house because it was new construction in an old neighborhood that had no covenants or restrictions on BUDs. The sky wasn't clear except from 105 and West.
But the Denver feeds were on 137 then. I had every network give me waivers back in 98 after I moved in, because the hill to the north ( behind the dish) blocks the transmitters that are only 15 miles away. I couldn't get a clear picture ( analog) with even a fringe antenna on the roof. The CBS station challenged it and came out and did a contour measurement , then sheepishly gave me the waiver. My signal was grade C.

Once the waivers were done I contacted some installers , who then proceeded to say that it couldn't be done because the ground was fractured shale and wouldn't support a 35 foot mast on the side of the house without getting rediculouly expensive. The hill behind the house would have given the western arc...but nothing else.

So I found a way to mount the NPRM ( picked it up from a dealer in Seaside that was closing down C-band sales for about $100) and that system was rock steady for almost 10 years. I may put the 8.5 foot back up on the roof as I could lock 93 and 95 from there.

 

[oldsatdude]

I had a feeling the the trees were protected. The chainsaw was a thought for a chuckle. I do remember the crap about the networks and the waivers to watch them. What a joke that was and still is.When you PAY money for a service, you shouldn't have to be bothered with such regulations. I believe that along with the regulations over the networks combined with the program providers selling out to the DBS companies has speared the heart of many business and ruined the C-band industry. I have, in the past gone to the steel shop and ordered poles 30 feet long and 6 inches in diameter and they have to weld the pipes together and then deliver it to the job. I carried every piece of steel and block for a non-pen roof mount for a condo, to the elevator to the top floor and pass the goods thru the roof access and rope the dish over the edge from the top floor to get a job done. I like the challenges.

OK. about the splitter, a true IF splitter will be somewhere around 900 to 2050 mhz and should not have much loss to the signal. Your splitter is a super wide frequency splitter and will be high in loss on LNB. If you put the amp ahead of the splitter you would benefit both units. Amplifiers can be placed in the splice near the dish or at the back of the receiver. I had a commercial receiver that couldn't get above the threshold to keep a signal lock and put the 20 db behind it and the signal lock was fine. Also the LNB has two stages for amplification and can fail or change in extreme cold temps. The lower the kelvin temp the better the signal. I'm sure your biggest trouble is the trees. Good luck with the TV viewing. Keep us posted on your success.

 

[dhj]

Just my 2 cents. I have a large white pine that shadows part of the dish when on eastern sats. Not too much trouble on a dry day. Wind fluctuates the numbers. Wet tree reduces the signal and heavy rain sags the limbs and causes drop outs. Snow is the worst. My neighbors are in their 90's and know this tree will leave this world soon after they do. Dave

 

[scottxray]

Rain started up again yesterday and was heavy in PM. Quality dropped again on X4 about 30% , but is back up this AM to the higher values again.
Worst case the Quality dropped to 15 on X4-206 (note splitter is also back IN the system with 900-2150 range, dc pass one port.)

Tried a 20db amp out at the dish. Signal went up...but Quality dropped to a low amount (10-12) , even on the best transponder. So the 20db amp
Is increasing the signal but dropping S/N . Maybe its saturating the input stage as the signal was 90 across the board (all channels) but quality was
zero on most. more of a noise amp than anything.

The fir has to be holding water on its branches and is degrading the signal. Not rain fade so much as a bunch of water in the branches acting as a filter.
W1 23 had some infomercial in the clear yesterday for a while and the signal was 90 , clear as a bell, while X4 was marginal on a few transponders.

Looks like X4 is not going to get better. Explains why I've never got an s2 lock on it also.

 

[Asket]

Best thing to do is eliminate anything in your system that is eating signal. DAWNSAT if you can afford them has some ultra-stable professional stuff. Looking at the pics it looks like a solid installation.
Used to use in line amps but eventually decided that increasing system efficiency worked best.