Didn't Charlie say, just last year, that when Cablevision signed a contract to carry YES that E* would follow suit? Will he keep his word? Does he ever?DCSholtis said:
Rumor: Dish close to adding YES
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Uhh, well, yes, I am quite aware of what Howe did in Oakland with scads of talent. I'm also aware of what he's done in NY.GaryPen said:
However, I'm quite unaware of his prowess in dealing with 12-15 year olds. Is this what you're intimating???? My point was that the Mets claim to be having a difficult time right now in locating a serviceable player to fill in at short or second if someone goes down. It's not necessarily an easy task. Look at the cast that the Yankees are trying to plug into second base.I thought your distance from NY was what made you not realize how this town initially reacted to Phillips' early moves. Obviously, it wasn't unanimous. Little in sports usually is. I heard people saying that the A-Rod deal wasn't good for the Yanks. I guess that's another reason why baseball is so cool; the arguments are always fun.
He said on the last Charlie Chat that they were waiting for the decision - he definitely did not (at least in that response) commit to following whatever agreement emerged. I think he was hoping for a decision that set precedent for optional carriage. If YES were forced to offer it as an optional service on Cablevision (and then the other cable systems), then it is likely they would strike a similar deal with DISH. Now that YES has expanded-basic inclusion on Cablevision, they certainly are not going to accept some less-inclusive package arrangement from l'il ol' D*.AndyMon said:Didn't Charlie say, just last year, that when Cablevision signed a contract to carry YES that E* would follow suit? Will he keep his word? Does he ever?
I hope what some are saying is correct: that AT160 is equivalent to Cablevision's expanded basic tier, and therefore YES will accept a deal at that level. But, I suspect they will want one of the lower level packages and Charlie will balk.
CAL7 said:
That's not even close. I have CVC as a provider for HD locals and cable modem service. Expanded basic does not even include their digital service. Expanded basic is probably closest to AT60.
One thing to consider here... CVC is *only* in the NY area. There is obviously a higher percentage of Yankees/Nets fans here then elsewhere. I see this as another MSG/FSNY add on (i.e. only goes to NY area and to sports pkg subs).
i'm calling E* right now to ask about YES and encourage them to sign deal. i will probably buy baseball package if YES deal comes through otherwise i may end up seeing what time warner can offer for a dvr unit as i'm on cable modem as of a few months ago.
According to the NY Times (not that that means much :shocked ), YES will be on Cablevision's "Family Cable" tier. From the news story, I can't tell where CVC carries FSNY and MSG - it implies that last year they were an optional add-on. No mention at all of where they will be this year. I would guess that if YES is in "Family Cable", then CVC would want to also include FSNY and MSG. Any confirmation?hancox said:
The logical place for YES to be in DISH's lineup would be the AT60-Plus and higher, since that is where FSNY and MSG are.
If Dish chooses to add Yes in an agreement similar to Cable, wherein they are required place it at the equivilent of "extended basic", and have to pay almost $2 per subscriber, then I would think everyboby's rates would have to rise by approx. $2 as well.
Perhaps they can limit the definition of "subscriber" to only those in the NY RSN zone. But, still, that's a lot of samolians. Someone will have to pay.
Perhaps they can limit the definition of "subscriber" to only those in the NY RSN zone. But, still, that's a lot of samolians. Someone will have to pay.
I found the Cablevision news release, and they say that YES, FSNY and MSG will be in every package above "Broadcast Basic". The rates for Broadcast Basic will rise by $.95 to cover all three sports networks. Further, and more applicable to us Dish subscribers, is that CVC will not be raising rates for any of the premium packages that already include the RSN's. If the programming cost structure behind CVC can translate to DISH (I don't know how similar they are, but I would think pretty close), then DISH should be able to include all three NYC RSN's in the AT60P without any further rate increase. Just like CVC, Charlie will give the same blah, blah, blah about absorbing the costs to keep prices reasonable - blah, blah, blah - but fundamentally it's the cost vs. additional revenue from additional subscriber equation.
GaryPen - I think there is a flaw in your arithmetic logic. If Dish has to pay YES $1.93 per AT60P NYC subscriber, that is a small increase spread across the entire population of DISH subscribers. In the same manner that DISH makes a business decision to pay $X.XX per month for, as an example, Fox Sports Net Detroit in AT60P, they have to make a business decision to pay $1.93 to YES. In either case, it's a small amount across the entire subscriber base that has the marketing benefit of allowing DISH to compete with local cable providers in any given market. I am sure they must have a model that estimates subscribers gained or lost based upon programming costs, but even if the arithmetic does not work out in any individual case, the benefit of offering "complete" RSN coverage has substantial marketing benefits. IMO.
GaryPen - I think there is a flaw in your arithmetic logic. If Dish has to pay YES $1.93 per AT60P NYC subscriber, that is a small increase spread across the entire population of DISH subscribers. In the same manner that DISH makes a business decision to pay $X.XX per month for, as an example, Fox Sports Net Detroit in AT60P, they have to make a business decision to pay $1.93 to YES. In either case, it's a small amount across the entire subscriber base that has the marketing benefit of allowing DISH to compete with local cable providers in any given market. I am sure they must have a model that estimates subscribers gained or lost based upon programming costs, but even if the arithmetic does not work out in any individual case, the benefit of offering "complete" RSN coverage has substantial marketing benefits. IMO.
CAL7 said:
If you consider that most markets have ONE RSN, and NY has at least THREE (if E takes YES), I'd say that the rest of the subscriber base is in effect unfairly subsidizing E's NY subscribers. Also, adding YES will increase NY subscribers, making it an even larger payment to George, and making it that much more unfair to non-NY subscribers.
Also, do you know for a fact that the fee would be based only on NY subscribers alone? Of course, one would assume. But, knowing the boundless greed of Steingrabber, I would not be surprised if he asked for $1.93 per Dish subscriber.
Obviously, the fairest method to consumers and the providers would be to offer NY subs a sports package, and have FSN, MSG, and YES share the revenue. Of course, business doesn't usually care about what's fair to the consumer, and The Boss couldn't care less about what's fair to anybody but himself.
If anyone is to blame for NY Dish subs not getting Yankee baseball, it's the owner of the Yankees. Ironic, isn't it? I say, "Bring back George Costanza!"
I don't have the numbers, so I can only speak theoretically, but I bet it's pretty close to accurate. It seems like the best way to analyze the "fairness" is to look at the number of regional subscribers and the cost to carry that region's RSN's. It makes sense to me that a region that has three times the paying subscribers would "fairly" be entitled to three times the RSN's. For instance, to continue picking on Detroit for no particular reason, if it costs $1.00 for Fox Sports Detroit, then it is "fair" to pay $3.00 for all three NYC RSN's if the New York area contributes three times as many paying subscribers to DISH. To go further, if NYC has more than 3x Detroit's subscribers - which I think is a reasonable scenario - then I could make the case that NY subscribers are subsidizing the Detroit subscribers.GaryPen said:
I am not really following your argument here. Isn't adding subscribers, from wherever, good for DISH, and indirectly beneficial to the rest of the subscribers by reducing DISH's costs?GaryPen said:
I have to admit that I do not know it for a fact, but I think the logical deduction is compelling. It would be a nonstarter to even consider asking for $1.93 for the whole country. DISH's arrangement would follow DirecTV's, so we could verify it by looking at their contract; it defies all logic to think that Murdoch would pay that. The whole RSN concept depends upon everyone paying for their local RSN, so that the country as a whole comes out about even.GaryPen said:
Believe me, I am agnostic in this dispute. Given that my only motive is to get YES delivered to my TV, my best interests would have been served by the arbitration decision going in favor of Cablevision. Then, I think it would have been an easy negotiation for Charlie to put YES in a special sports package, for which I would gladly have paid. However, I still think that nationwide fairness still requires that DISH offer YES in the same way they offer FSNY, MSG, or even Fox Sports Detroit.GaryPen said:
i'm glad the yankees v. mets seems to be done but dish carrying yes does not mean $2 price rise for every sub in the country especially since it's only the ny customers getting yes in their package anyways. dish keeps the price for the packages the same nationwide. some people in ny have 3 rsns already if you count buffalo's empire station if that still exists. furthermore carrying yes may mean more subscribers and people like me who will probably get the baseball package if yes appears and that may keep your bill lower!
CAL7 said:
It doesn't make sense to me.
Using your NY vs. Detroit scenerio: If the Dish pays Fox $2 per Detroit sub, let's say 100,000, that's $200,000. If Dish pays $6 per NY sub to George/MSG/Fox, let's say 300,00 people, that's $1,800,000. If that dollar amount is spread out over ALL subscribers, then the non-NY subscribers are subsidizing the NY subscribers.
Look at the 400,000 people above. They are sharing a total of $2,000,000 in fees to the RSN's equally. That's $5 per sub. So, the Detroit subs are paying $5 for $2 worth of sports programming, while the NY subs are paying $5 for $6 worth of programming.
Capisce?
Also, since when does increased revenue get passed on to the consumer? Never. Increased costs do, but not increased revenue.
CAL7 said:
by baseball package i meant extra innings. mlbei games for your local teams are blacked out making you watch it on your own rsn (regional sports network). if i am in yankees territory (and i am) they will black out those games allowing me to watch it on yes. if echostar doesn't carry yes, i'm out of luck.
for those of you outside the area in FOUR states that the yankees belong to, you'll be able to watch the yankees alright with mlbei.GaryPen said:
Oh, I do not know that is true, many markets maybe even most markets have 2 or 3 rsn's. My market which is Chattanooga TN a smaller market even, has 3 rsn's in it, FOX Sports South, Turner South and Comcast Sports South East. The first 2 have all the regions Pro sports like the Hawks and Braves and are carried by D*, E* and all of the areas cable systems (Comcast and Charter), CSSE has many of the UT collage basketball and football games and is only available on cable which is a big disadvantage in this area because of the many UT Vols fans (you would think Charlie would pick up CSSE since he is a UT graduate
).In reality all E* subs with AT60+ and above subsidizes every one else's rsn's, and since NYC is the largest market, NYC subs probably pay a bigger share then anyone else. And this is coming from someone who hates NY teams
.
Dolan gets whupped, by George
The words were familiar.
In the late 1980s they were spoken by Cablevision founder Charles Dolan
during his battle with the Madison Square Garden Network.
On Wednesday, his son James, the president of Cablevision, which also
owns the Garden, its teams, its network and Fox Sports New York,
recycled those lines in reaction to a ruling by three arbitrators making
the Yankees Entertainment & Sports Network available on "expanded basic"
to Cablevision subscribers.
"This ruling is a significant step backwards that ignores the consumer's
desire for fairness and choice - core principles that were the basis of
Cablevision's dispute with YES," Dolan said.
His words ring hollow, especially to anybody who has experienced
Cablevision's definition of "fairness." The company's battle with YES
had nothing to do with the "desire" of any consumer and everything to do
with Cablevision, a sanctioned monopoly, looking to crush YES so the
fledgling network would not compete with MSG and FSNY.
Dolan's hard-line stance backfired.
It also gave George Steinbrenner a victory as big as - maybe even bigger
than - any Yankees World Series title.
With Cablevision, and all area cable systems, carrying YES on "expanded
basic" this year at a cost of about $1.93 a month per subscriber, YES is
guaranteed a major stream of revenue. YES will be able to attract
advertisers once reluctant to buy time on the network because it could
not deliver enough eyeballs.
What initially looked like a shrewd business move for Dolan turned sour.
If Cablevision had elected to engage in good-faith negotiations from the
get-go, he would have come away with a better deal.
Flash back to when Cablevision was thinking about purchasing the Garden,
and the MSG Network. One crucial factor that helped justify the roughly
$1.5 billion price tag was Cablevision's belief it could save big bucks
on the Yankee TV package.
Owning both MSG and FSNY, along with the area's largest cable system,
Dolan probably believed Steinbrenner would have no choice but to re-sign
with MSG when the contract expired in 2000. Logic said Steinbrenner
would either have to settle for no increase in rights-fee payments (he
was coming off a 12-year deal worth $486 million) or take a pay cut.
Instead of coming to Dolan hat in hand, Steinbrenner entered wielding a
club. He asked for a 10-year deal worth $1.4 billion. If he didn't get
what he wanted, Steinbrenner said, he would start his own network.
Dolan didn't believe Steinbrenner. He underestimated The Boss' resolve
and stubbornness.
Instead of trying to engage in any substantive negotiations with
Steinbrenner, MSG filed suit against the Yankees to extend the TV
contract for "an unspecified number of years," which led to a one-year
extension.
Following that blunder by Dolan, things transpired as expected.
Steinbrenner started YES, bringing in Leo Hindery to run the network.
Dolan wouldn't negotiate. He offered 55 cents per Cablevision subscriber
to carry YES. The offer was laughable considering most regional sports
networks, including MSG and FSNY, were averaging $1 or more per
subscriber.
At any time in this process, going back to 2000, if Dolan had negotiated
with Steinbrenner with serious intentions of getting a deal, this story
would have had a different ending.
MSG Network could have ended up owning Yankee TV rights outright for at
least 10 years. If that were the case, there would be no YES. With the
Yankees on MSG, network suits would have had a true marquee team with
power to alter the bottom line.
And if Dolan was serious about doing a deal with Hindery, once YES was
up and running he would have saved himself some money. Hindery was
looking for $2.12 per subscriber, but would have cut a deal for $1.82 -
or less. Now Dolan is paying $1.93 per subscriber.
To offset that cost, Dolan immediately raised subscriber rates on
Cablevision's "expanded basic" tier by 95 cents a month. No surprise,
especially to Cablevision subscribers who are used to seeing their rates
raised with no reasons attached.
YES' deal with Cablevision lasts for six years.
Dolan said he is looking forward to the day "when we can revisit this
issue."
Some guys never learn
The words were familiar.
In the late 1980s they were spoken by Cablevision founder Charles Dolan
during his battle with the Madison Square Garden Network.
On Wednesday, his son James, the president of Cablevision, which also
owns the Garden, its teams, its network and Fox Sports New York,
recycled those lines in reaction to a ruling by three arbitrators making
the Yankees Entertainment & Sports Network available on "expanded basic"
to Cablevision subscribers.
"This ruling is a significant step backwards that ignores the consumer's
desire for fairness and choice - core principles that were the basis of
Cablevision's dispute with YES," Dolan said.
His words ring hollow, especially to anybody who has experienced
Cablevision's definition of "fairness." The company's battle with YES
had nothing to do with the "desire" of any consumer and everything to do
with Cablevision, a sanctioned monopoly, looking to crush YES so the
fledgling network would not compete with MSG and FSNY.
Dolan's hard-line stance backfired.
It also gave George Steinbrenner a victory as big as - maybe even bigger
than - any Yankees World Series title.
With Cablevision, and all area cable systems, carrying YES on "expanded
basic" this year at a cost of about $1.93 a month per subscriber, YES is
guaranteed a major stream of revenue. YES will be able to attract
advertisers once reluctant to buy time on the network because it could
not deliver enough eyeballs.
What initially looked like a shrewd business move for Dolan turned sour.
If Cablevision had elected to engage in good-faith negotiations from the
get-go, he would have come away with a better deal.
Flash back to when Cablevision was thinking about purchasing the Garden,
and the MSG Network. One crucial factor that helped justify the roughly
$1.5 billion price tag was Cablevision's belief it could save big bucks
on the Yankee TV package.
Owning both MSG and FSNY, along with the area's largest cable system,
Dolan probably believed Steinbrenner would have no choice but to re-sign
with MSG when the contract expired in 2000. Logic said Steinbrenner
would either have to settle for no increase in rights-fee payments (he
was coming off a 12-year deal worth $486 million) or take a pay cut.
Instead of coming to Dolan hat in hand, Steinbrenner entered wielding a
club. He asked for a 10-year deal worth $1.4 billion. If he didn't get
what he wanted, Steinbrenner said, he would start his own network.
Dolan didn't believe Steinbrenner. He underestimated The Boss' resolve
and stubbornness.
Instead of trying to engage in any substantive negotiations with
Steinbrenner, MSG filed suit against the Yankees to extend the TV
contract for "an unspecified number of years," which led to a one-year
extension.
Following that blunder by Dolan, things transpired as expected.
Steinbrenner started YES, bringing in Leo Hindery to run the network.
Dolan wouldn't negotiate. He offered 55 cents per Cablevision subscriber
to carry YES. The offer was laughable considering most regional sports
networks, including MSG and FSNY, were averaging $1 or more per
subscriber.
At any time in this process, going back to 2000, if Dolan had negotiated
with Steinbrenner with serious intentions of getting a deal, this story
would have had a different ending.
MSG Network could have ended up owning Yankee TV rights outright for at
least 10 years. If that were the case, there would be no YES. With the
Yankees on MSG, network suits would have had a true marquee team with
power to alter the bottom line.
And if Dolan was serious about doing a deal with Hindery, once YES was
up and running he would have saved himself some money. Hindery was
looking for $2.12 per subscriber, but would have cut a deal for $1.82 -
or less. Now Dolan is paying $1.93 per subscriber.
To offset that cost, Dolan immediately raised subscriber rates on
Cablevision's "expanded basic" tier by 95 cents a month. No surprise,
especially to Cablevision subscribers who are used to seeing their rates
raised with no reasons attached.
YES' deal with Cablevision lasts for six years.
Dolan said he is looking forward to the day "when we can revisit this
issue."
Some guys never learn
I thought Cablevision sold Sportschannel to Fox, which was why the name was changed to "Fox Sports (your city here)". Is that incorrect?
Yes
If they get it and you live in the Yankees DMA it will be a seperate channel
If they don't get it and you subscribe to the MLB package and If you don't live in the Yankees DMA, you will get the feed from the opposing team, if you do live in the Yankees DMA you won't get to see them, the old blackout rule!!!
If they get it and you live in the Yankees DMA it will be a seperate channel
If they don't get it and you subscribe to the MLB package and If you don't live in the Yankees DMA, you will get the feed from the opposing team, if you do live in the Yankees DMA you won't get to see them, the old blackout rule!!!
